The controversy: Meat

[Simran9]

I have researched the meat debates that happened on this forum, YES ALL 10 pages the search results gave me.

I am going to start an email debate with a friend of mine cuz we have a difference of opinion on this topic. So I am going to present my proof to her and she is gonna present her proof to me.

I have collected good stuff from the previous forum debates but I have found that some people posted stuff from gurbaani but the page numbers are wrong :D . I checked those pages and that quote is not there

If you think that gurbani is against eating meat plz give me proof with correct page #'s.

If you think that gurbani is NOT against eating meat plz give me proof with correct page #'s. i wanna see both sides of the debate. You don't have to just use SGGS ji as ur source, feel free to refer me to websites that talk about this.

THANX PPLZ :umm:

[Simran9]

Also, I forgot to say, If Sant Jarnail Singh ji Bhindrawale ever said anything about this topic in his speeches, lemme know. If it's on saintsoldiers.com tell me which speech to listen to. Or if there is a transcript of it send me that.

thanxx

[gsingh]

can you forward all this stuff to me too? i'm interested as well

[Simran9]

can you forward all this stuff to me too? i'm interested as well

yeah i can do that, if anyone else wants to get forwards from me post here. probably emailing it u will be best way, so pm me ur email address.

thanx :umm:

[JSingh]

Great thread. Satpreet Kaur Ji, plz save the exchange of emails between u and ur friend and send them to me after u are done with the debate. or just poste ur conversation on this furum with admins' permission so that we can all see it. Just a suggestion: use ur yahoo account that now gives 4MB of space (it was 6MB before) or create a khalsa email at sikhet that gives 6MB of space if u don't already have in a case ur hotmail account (only 2MB) starts eating up space quickly if ur conversation become really lenghthy...

hmmmm... for ur information, according to Bhai Vir Singh Ji, Sikhs are allowed to eat meat and he also agrees that in Guru Angad Dev Ji's (or Guru Amar Das Ji's) Langar (don't rem. exacly) meat was cooked and served along with vegetarian Langar. I am not saying whether Bhai Vir Singh Ji is right or wrong, but only stating his stand on this issue. I don't have the source of this info. yet, but i can try finding it out...

take care and bhul chuk di khima...

[smartsingh24]

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/Rehat.asp?ID=11

That's a good one, with a perfectly plausable explanation against eating meat.

[S1ngh]

http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.ppa?act=...=2&t=4474&st=0&

Hey satpreet check out SOGGSJ'S reply (2nd reply of that post)

[DhadiMania]

It is a disturbing thought that many Sikhs today believe that to attain spiritual enlightenment one can continue to tuck into a juicy steak, that the pain and suffering of the animal is separate to the succulent roast chicken on the table, that the cutting of the animals life force will not have a direct and adverse effect on their own 'karmic account '.

According to the maryada booklet , Kutha the meat prepared by the Muslim ritual killing is prohibited for a Sikh. Regarding eating other meat, it is still silent. Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (SGGS) makes various references to not eating meat but since it does this in a subtle way this has been ignored by many and has been taken as a green light to consume flesh. For most Sikhs this is very convenient as it is easier to eat meat then not to. As it stands most Sikhs are of the opinion that meat is open to Sikhs and they produce copious amount of information and 'evidence' to support this

Learned and wise Sikhs say that man has evolved as a meat eating hunter gatherer and that meat is an essential part of our diet. It is true that man has evolved over millions of years, but if he was a 'monkey' once does he still have to follow primative urges ? Is this now what seperates us from the rest of the animal kingdom ? Only we have the capacity to evolve spriritually, and to do this we must have dicipline and fortitude. As for meat being an essential part of our diet, there are millions of vegiertians and vegans who would disagree.

Avarice is a dog, falsehood the sweeper and cheating the eating of meat.

(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raag p15)

Falsehood is my dagger and to eat by defrauding is meat.

r>(Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Sri Raaj p24)

One 'evidence' the pro-meat lobby will site is that Guru Hargobind Sahib ji and Guru Gobind Singh Ji were accomplished hunters, they bring the Guru's down to their level, they cannot see beyond the physical, "if they hunted meat then they must have consumed it, right ?" - Wrong.

In a book called Sikh & Sikhism the author states :

"The game would have been cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste."

This is a case of authors making things up as they go along, pure conjecture. Again we cannot see past the physical world. The Guru's were pure souls, at One with the Almighty. Guru Gobind Singh Ji in his glorious autobiography Bachittar Natak writes that after many eons of tapasia (meditation) the two (Guru Ji and God) became One. There is no doubt that Guru Sahib Ji had merged with the Almighty. If a glass of water is poured into the ocean who is to say which part is now the water from the glass and which is not, it becomes one, in the same way the Guru's were at One with God. Where ever they went they granted mukhti (salvation) to all who were ready to take it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji on his udasis's (journeys) saved such people like Suggen Thug - who would invite people to his house and then in the dead of night strangle them, Kaudda Rakhsh, who indulged in cannibal activites and Walli Quandhari the mean fakir who would not let anyone use his well. So, from the very begining the Guru's have been blessing and granting mukhti to those souls whose karmic circle needed breaking, and who can do this ? Only the True Guru.

In the same way Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji and Guru Gobind Sahib Ji went hunting, not for pleasure - for the Guru's were way above the pleaseures of this world - or the need to satisfy their taste buds, they were above this , it was to instill a sense of pride and self confidence in the downtrodden people of India who for centuries had grovelled to any invader who happen t

o come their way, and in the process to settle long overdue 'accounts', to release the souls of the poor unfortunate animals who may have wronged in the past, to grant them Mukti (salvation).

There is a story of Guru Gobind Singh Ji who sent out his falcon to hunt an animal, once caught Guru Ji watched as the baaj tore into the animals flesh. Asked by one of his Sikhs what was the reasoning behind this Guru Ji stated that in a previous life the animal had borrowed some money from the baaj and swore on Akal Purkhs name that he would pay it back, he never did, now it was pay back time. There are many instances like this which illustrate that the Gurus were not hunting for meat but to save these souls from the continuous cycle of birth and death.

When Guru Nanak in his sixth form prohibits Sikhs from eating flesh in such a strong language, how can he, in his tenth form, issue instructions absolutely contrary to and in negation of his own earlier instructions?

Dr Gopal Singh in his History of the Sikh People.

" In the Gurus kitchen (or Guru Ka Langar) meat dishes are not served , maybe it is on account of it being perhaps expensive, or not easy to keep for long."

When has money stopped Sikhs from doing anything. An appeal at any local Gurudwara for funds for a project or disaster will yield hundreds of pounds donated by the sangat on the spot. A flesh eater will go to any lengths to get his fill, so this 'expensive' argument just does not hold.

Giani Sher Singh in his Philosophy of Sikhism.

"Kabir held the doctrine of Ahinsa or non-destruction of life, which even extended to his followers. The Sikh Gurus, on the contrary allowed and even encouraged the use of animal flesh for food……"

Does the author go on to expand on this , does he give any evidence for this, no he does not, again pure conjecture and speculation. One should step back and think for a moment what is being said here. The Gurus were pure souls, Sikhs believe them to have

merged with Akal Purkh are we then led to believe that they would tear into a chicken leg at meal time, piayrio don't even go there. Eating meat is a very primitive act and the Gurus taught us to be above this, to control our emotions and urges if we were to develop spiritually.

H.S Singha in his Mini Encyclopedia of Sikhism.

'Guru Amar Das Ji ate only rice and lentils but this abstention cannot be regarded as evidence of vegetarianism, only of simple living.'

Why cannot it be evidence of vegetarianism ? If we look at the lives of the Gurus we should try to emulate as much of them as possible because we regard their lives as ideal living, then this should be part of it.

Mohsin Fani (1615-70), the well known historian and a contemporary of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, rites in his work DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB as follows:

"Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself abstained from eating flesh and ordered not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak."

Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji's "UPDESH" to Bhai Daya Singh ji which is mentioned in "SUDHARAM MARAG GRANTH" :

"One who does not Steal, Commit adultery , Slander anyone , Gamble , Eat meat or drink wine will be liberated in this very life (i.e. Jeewan Mukt)".

Mata Ganga Ji longed for a son. She confided in her husband, the fifth Guru, Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Guru Sahib Ji instructed her to prepare some food and seek the blessing of Baba Buddha Ji, a learned Sikh and spiritially a Braham Giani. Mata Ji prepared dishes of rich and spicey food and went with great pomp and ceremony to get blessed by Baba Buddha Ji. But Baba Ji was not impressed by all the fuss and rich food, despondent Mata Jireturned home.

Upon enquiring the outcome Guru Arjun Dev Ji urged her to prepare another

meal but this time a simple meal of Missi roti (chapatties) , yoghurt , achaar (pickle) , onions and lassi , and to make it with her own hands. This she did and Baba Ji was very impressed. Baba ji was a Brahm Giani (a stage of spiritual enlightenment) and ate simple wholesome foods, he did not care for rich spicey foods, instead he was happy to eat missi roti and yoghurt.

He took the onion and brought his fist upon it to break it open, and said " You will be blessed with a son Mata ji and like this he will crush the heads of the oppressors", in due course Mata ji was blessed with a son who later became the sixth Guru, Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji.

The point being, all spiritually enlightened souls lead simple lives and eat simple food, the Name of the Lord is their sustainer, they have no need to entertain their taste buds with rich spicey food let alone the spiritually corrupting meat.

TO BE CONTUNUED......

[DhadiMania]

Now, to get to the heart of the matter, we are talking about killing another living being , cutting its flesh and muscles which that animal relied upon for its existence and consuming it, primarily for the taste. It has been said that we are designed to eat meat and that we evolved to eat meat. There are many things that we can do but that does not make them right, we as gursikhs need to overcome these primal urges, we need to rise above them. We can exist quite happily without meat so why do many people feel the urge to consume it, taste plays a large part of it. Can we in our hearts believe that the Gurus advocated this?

Question : Are beings born on this earth and have living bodies just to be a convenience food ?

Or are beings born into a life with a body so that they can develop and eventually evolve away from karma and into Dharma ?

In the beginnings of SGGS , Guru Ji says :

This human body has been given to you.

This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe.

Nothing else will work.

Join the SaadhSangat, the company of the holy.

Vibrate and meditate on the Jewel on the Naam.

Make every effort to cross over this terrifying world-ocean.

Your are squandering this life uselessly in the love of Maya

I have not practiced meditation, self discipline,

Self restraint or righteous living.

I have not served the holy;

I have not acknowledged the Lord, my king.

Says Nanak, my actions are contemptible!

O Lord, I seek Your Sanctuary, please preserve my honour.

This 'body' is given to all in order to meet Akal Purkh and the Guru says that there is no other way to meet him. We a

re so fortunate that in Gods wisdom he has blessed us with a human body, for it is only a human who can meditate upon His Name and gain salvation, no other animal has this ability. By killing a healthy animal for consumption interrupts its life experience and its evolution towards meeting God. Animals can sense impending doom especially if they can hear the death throws of their colleagues. This can evoke a very powerful glandular response in the animal, pumping hormones around its body. When you eat that flesh you take on those hormones, and you take on its karma. This has a great effect on your Atma (soul) , for the Atma feels pain. Why do you think we are always restless and only catch brief moments of inner peace ? This is beacuse the atma is seperated from its maker, it longs to be reunited with it, but adding the karma of another soul to yours you are 'weighing' yourself down even more with paap, you are also interfering with your own desire to meet Akal Pukh. If you have not cleared away your own karma why would you want to create the karma of killing and consuming the flesh of another being ?

Sikhs do not eat or take into their bodies anything which is harmful or have an ill effect upon the body or mind. Meat is a stimulant of the gross passions of the mind and body. Meat is harmful on a physical, mental and spiritual level. You are killing a soul who is in the process of evolving towards God this is not going to help you in any way on your journey towards God. Meat stimulates your 'lower nature' making it impossible to achieve a meditative spiritual mind set, try sitting down and clearing your mind to meditate after comsuming meat, it cannot be done. If you want constant confusion and irritation then chew on a piece of flesh, if you want to feed your lower passions then carry on as you are. Make no mistake, when the noose of death is around your neck and the jaal (net) of maya (illusion) is finally lifted then all will become clear, but my friend, it will all be too late. If on the

other hand you want to evolve spiritually , open up the capacity for meditative comprehension of higher truths, gain inner peace of which you have never known before, then the karmic and polluting nature of meat cannot be ignored.

It is said by many that plants also have life so why do we not abstain from eating plants ?

It is very true that plants do have life, Guru Nanak dev Ji has said "patti toray maalni, patti patti geeo" (The gardner plucks leaves from the plant, (but she does not know that) there is life in each leaf) but the karmic energy and consequences of eating plants do not compare to those of an animal which has feeling, possible thoughts, parental instincts towards its offspring, also plants (lentils, maize , spinach etc) are not harmful on a mental, spiritual level but are in fact good for the digestion.

Much has been made of the Nihang Singh sect eating Maha Parshad, but the Nihangs also drink a concoction of Marihuana and opium called Suckha, are we all to start taking drugs because of this?

They (the truest of the true) burn away the bonds of the world,

And eat a simple diet of grain and water.

(SGGS p467)

Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.

(SGGS p1337)

You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain.

(SGGS p332)

Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ?

(SGGS p1350)

Sayeth Kabir, that the best food is eating kichree (daal/lentils) where nectar sweet is the salt.

You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut ?

(SGGS p1378)

In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs;

They eat rotting dead bodies for food.

(SGGS p1242)

Sayeth Kabir, sayeth thou by "forcefully" killing living beings, Halaal.

When i

n God's house, your accounts be taken, what will then there happen to you!

(SGGS p1375)

Kabeer bhang mashalee suraapaan, jo jo pranee khaan-he

teerath barat neym kee-ey, te sabh rasaatal jaan-he (1377)

suraapaan=alcohol rasaatal=below hell, underground.

Those people who drink bhang, eat fish, drink alcohol,

and do ritual bathing, keep fast, all shall be burried underground.

The Vars of Bhai Gurdas Ji are known as the 'kunji' (key) to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

// 31 pauree 9 : "Just because the Guru has saved the butcher,That does not mean that we can kill animals and eat them."

The only hymn in the whole of Sri Guru Granth Sahib that is specifically cited in support of eating meat is the hymn of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji in the // of Raag Malhar on pages 1289-90 beginning with the couplet:

Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jhaghrrey.

Gian dhian Nahin Jaaney.

Kaun Maas Kaun Saag Kahaavey

Kis Mah Paap Samaaney. (pg. 1289-1290)

Only the fool quarrels over the question of eating or not eating of the meat.

He does not have the True Wisdom. Without True Wisdom or Meditation, he harps on

which is flesh and which is not flesh and which food is sinful and which is not.

A deeper study of the whole hymn brings out:

Herein, Guru Sahib is addressing a Vaishnav Pandit who believes that he can achieve his spiritual goal only by avoiding meat as food and not trying to obtain the true wisdom through meditation. Guru Ji has stressed that only avoiding meat will not lead one to the achievement of Spiritual Bliss if one does not do Naam-Simran. This equally applies to all, including non-meat-eating Sikhs.

It relates to the flesh or meat in general and not to any particular type of flesh - whether prepared by Halaal or Jhatka method. The Sikh supporters of flesh eating do not accept at all the intake of all types of meat, but according to them, only Jhatka meat is permissible and Halaal is totally prohibi

ted. In other words, what does the term "Kuthha" denote?

The flesh of the mother's womb wherein the human body is born, the flesh of the mother's breasts which feed the infant, the flesh of the tongue, ears, mouth, etc., used for perception of various senses of the body, the flesh in the form of wife and off-springs referred to in the Shabad, is flesh no doubt and one cannot escape it, but is it the flesh to be eaten as food by the humans? Does the love for this type of flesh involve any cruelty or slaughter of living bodies? Obviously, the Shabad has a deeper meaning telling Vaishnav pandits that merely escaping from the flesh does not take one anywhere. Nor can anyone get rid of the flesh (i.e., attainment of salvation from the cycle of birth and death) by his own futile efforts without the Grace of the True Guru.

A final thought, the Sants and Mahapursh of the present day all warn us of the evils of eating meat. They all urge us to take Paol/Amrit and to give up maas, shraab and birri. Not one Sant has ever said otherwise.

As a young lad I can just remember the times when Sant Baba Puran Singh Ji (Krichowali) used to administer Amrit to hundreds to people up and down the country and they never ever condoned meat eating. In recent times I have also been blessed by darshans of Sant Baba Bhagwan Singh Ji (Southall), not once have they ever even entertained the notion of meat and Sikism. Surely, being spiritually on a higher plain then all of us if there was any ambiguity in the 'meat - no meat' argument Baba ji would have stated it. But instead they are fiercely against meat. So who are we going to believe, Sant Mahapurshs or some academic manmukh ?

Do we eat to live, or do we live to eat ?

from www.info-sikh.com

[akjforever]

http://www.panthkhalsa.org/rahit/rahit.ppa

http://www.panthkhalsa.org/gurmat/gurmat.ppa#MEAT

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!