bowing to sants

[akjforever]

Instead of bowing to any person, Saint or not, why not bow only to the Greatest Saint of all, the Saint of Saints, Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Jeeo..

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.panthkhalsa.org/gurmat/gurmat.ppa#SANT

DISTURBING MIS-USE OF THE WORD "SANT" ... (By Navjot Singh)

Sa'ntan Mo Kao Har(i) Marag Paiya ||

Saadh Kirpaal(i) Har(i) Sung Gijhaiya ||

Har(i) HamraHam Har(i) kay Dasay Nanak Shabad Guru Sach Dinna Jeeo|| 4||14||21|| [Page 100]

Sant Kirpa Tay Mitay Moh Bharam ||

Saadh RayNN Majan Sabh(i) Dharam || [GauRRi Guararee, page 183]

Mittay A'ndaysia Ha(n) || Sant Updaysia Meray Mana ||1||4||160|| [page 410]

J(a) WadBhag Hoveh Mukh(i) Mastak Har(i) Naam Jana Bheyta'ay ||

Darsan Sant Deho Kar(i) Kirpa Sabh(u) Daldh(u) Dukh(u) Leh Jaa'ey||2||2|| [881]

In all of the above GurbaNNi verses, the word "Sant" or "Saadh" is meant only for Guru Sahib Ji. In fact in all of GurbaNNi whenever the word "Sant" is used in the singular form, it is meant only for Guru Sahib. In the plural form, it is meant for all GurSikhs in general, but never for an individual. These interpretations are accepted by all prominent Scholars of the Khalsa Panth, but then why is this word, "Sant", so widely mis-used ?

Even Baba Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale (as he should be called) used to say that he was not a "Sant", and people were alwa

ys pasting this title on him.

The word that was only to be used for Guru Sahib in the singular form, and for all GurSikhs in the plural form, has now become a TITLE (Khittab) that has not only lost its original meaning, but has brought on many of the ills into our community.

In August edition of "Sura" magazine a brief article on this subject by Giani Gurditt Singh Ji (Singh Sabha) was printed. Appropriately it was titled : "Panthak Eakta Day JaaRRi(n) Paleetay". It criticized the mis-use of this word, and the dangers to Panthic Unity with its mis-use. Giani Ji, mentioned that the mis-use of this word started in the last century when people began to refer to the respectable Baba Attar Singh Ji (Mastuanna) as "Sant Ji", "Sant Ji Maharaj", and so on. Thereafter, to most of the Sikh public, he was known as "Sant Attar Singh Ji Mastuannaywale." The mis-use of this word quickly spread throughout the Panth, unfortunately, now it is not too uncommon to see a so-called "Sant" in every village in Punjab. The illiterate, rural Sikhs, venerate these individuals to the point of GuruShip. In actuality, it can be said that these individuals, are not Sikhs (disciples) of Guru Granth Sahib, but of these so-called "Sants."

In Dasam Patshah's BaNNi there is a verse describing such a situation :

"Ghar(i) Ghar(i) Hoey B'Hayngey Rama"

Bhai Randhir Singh, a revolutionary freedom fighter and mystical theologian, who was one of the only individuals to receive HukamNamahs from all (then) four Takahts was staunchly against the mis-use of the word "Sant.", and refused to be called a Sant throughout his life. In his book titled "Sant Padd NirNNay" he dwells into detail, the use of words like Sant, Saaadh, Sadhoo, and Bhagat, in GurbaNNi, and their proper interpretation.

Referring to the "Sant" situation, Bhai Sahib states:

"..Guru Panth da eh Lazzmi Faraz hai Ki Ohna Noo(n) Is Sant-Dumbtta di Bimmaree [disease] toa(n) HuNN Toa(n) Aroagatt [cure] Keeta Javay"

Yes this ha

s become a disease that has infested almost all the Jathaybandis of our Panth, and we must rid the Panth of this disease, otherwise it will rot us all..

Looking a little deeper into such Jathaybandies, one finds that along with the title SANT, a so-called "Gaddee" is passed on from "Sant" to "Sant", just as the Kookays, and the Nirankaris passed on their "GuruShip" to their successors. IS THIS GURMAT, OR PURE BRAHMANISM AT ITS PEAK !!!!

It is as Guru Sahib said : "Bipran Ki Reet"

If we look closely at the derays of these "Sants" we will not be surprised to see many worthless rituals and practices borrowed from Nirmalas and Hindu ascetics

There exists an "elitist" organization called the "Sant-Smaj", reportedly , it comprises of dozens and dozens of these so-called "Sants." The Panth needs to be more vigilant about the motives of such organizations. What is their purpose in the Panth, why are they trying to validate their existence as "Sants" ?

Does an individual in the Sikh Panth have the right to hold this TITLE ? Absolutely not, according to GurbaNNi all GurSikhs are equal, no one is higher or lower. There are no ranks in the Panth. We are all Bhais, with equal status and respect for all.

Have we ever thought :

Who gave them the "privilege" to be called "Sants" ?

What is their relationship to their chalays, as compared to Guru Sahib and "normal" GurSikhs?

Why is there a need for them to be called a "Sant" ?

Why do so many of them have links to GOI politicians ?

Are they spiritually higher than GurSikhs like Bhai Gurdas Ji, Baba Ajit Singh Ji, Baba Jujhar Singh Ji, Baba Fateh Singh Ji, Baba Joravar Singh Ji, Bhai Nand Singh Ji, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, Baba Deep Singh Ji, and Akali Phula Singh Ji ?

Why has this word been so much mis-used ? When will we put a stop to its mis-use ?

These are important questions that we in the Panth will eventually have to answer.

It is sad to see GurSikh

s who once believed in non other than Guru Granth Sahib, start chanting "Sant Ji Maharaj", "Mahapurakh, BrahmGyani this and that" all day and night after having the "Sangat" of such individuals. As GurSikhs we are told that we must not do Ustat or Nindiya of anyone. The only Ustat we should do is of Akal Purakh Sahib and Guru Sahib Ji. Those individuals, who day and night praise these so-called "Sants", are going against the Guru's Hukams. Rather than bringing the public closer to Guru Sahib these "Sants" have done just the opposite. Those poor individuals who become their followers start having more faith in these "Sants" than in Guru Sahib. These "Sants" not only know that this is happening but encourage it, this is very disturbing.

There is a verse in Asa-Di-// that describes the fate of individuals who challenge the Guru's Timeless Authority :

Khassmai Karay Barabree, Phir(i) Garirat(i) Unther(i) Pai'ay|| [page 874]

As stated before many of these "Sants" have the auspicious of GOI, we as Sikhs have a right to question these individuals and their followers as to why they are called "Sants", Sikh organizations, Gurdwaras, and the general public, should openly boycott them and challenge their fake TITLES. Remember the issue hear is not necessarily the individuals themselves, but the mis-use of the word "SANT." Not only is its mis-use disturbing to our society, but it is entirely against GURMAT.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[kam1825]

Regarding the mis use of the word sant and it actually meaning Guru. All i can say is that is a total load of rubbish

Tell me when Bhagat Kabir calls himself a sant is he actually calling himself a Guru. A Bhagat with such nimerta and lack of ego.

That is a load of rubbish made by people who are full of Ego and would rather bow to anything and believe anything but another Human being. The whole point of bowing to someone is to get rid of ego. An animal walks on all 4 legs as it is without ego. one who bends on all fours and bows in respect discards ego and accepts that there are persons of greatness in this and the world after

The AKJ movement i am sorry to say has changed traditional Sikhi where respect was given for people with higer Avasta such as Sants.

It is stated in Bani i will try to find where i have to go through my Katha tapes that in tirath yatra you get Fal of Pun if on this tirath yatra you meet a sant and you bow to them you get 4 jug da fal and if you see guru granth sahib ji and bow to them you get anek jooni da fal.

So there is a difference.

Also those that state that there where no sants during the times of Guru Ji well that is rubbish as well. How about Baba Sri Chand Ji and Guru Nanak Dev Ji's lineage who all the Gurus used to send 500 rupees every year as a mark of respect and when they could go and have darshan of them.

Guru Ram Das Ji swept the dirt off Baba Sri Chands feet with their beard. Nimerta or what.

Guru Arjan Dev Ji got Baba Sri Chand Ji to bless the Sarover at Harmandis Sahib and the great sadhu did so by dipping his charan in the amrit.

Guru Hargobind Ji bowed and paid respects to baba Sri Chan

d Ji and gave them Baba Gurditta Ji as a son. Baba Gurditta Ji then wore the robes of an Udhasi.

Guru Gobind Singh Jo paid respects to Baba Kaladhar Ji who were Guru Nanak Dev Ji's 10th descendants and offered them what ever they pleased. The request was for a Sant to come into the family to bring back Sikhi into the area of Una Sahib. This turned out to be Baba Sahib Singh Ji Bedi. Also many of Guru Jis personal belongings were also handed over.

Don't tell me these things did not happen. Is it that you want to choose which parts of our history you want to accept and what you dont. I do not know the lineage of the AKJ however i am aware That Taksal goes back to Guru Gobind Singh Ji where Guru Sahib taught 52 persons the REAL meanings of Gurbani and they are still being taught to us to this day. They state that the meanings of SANT in Guru sahib is 100% different to GURU.

One thing i have stated in this post is that Guru Sahib bowing to them you will get anek jooni da fal.

I have a different penace for each. With a Sant my forehead will touch their feet. At the gurdwara I bow to Guru Sahib by ways of Dandout where my body is flat on the floor and all limbs on the front of my body are being offered. Why offer your head when you cen give your whole body to the guru.

And who ought me to do that it was the glory of the Sants that have.

[Son of Guru Gobind Singh Ji]

mwJ mhlw 5 caupdy Gru 1 ]

myrw mnu locY gur drsn qweI ]

iblp kry cwiqRk kI inAweI ]

iqRKw n auqrY sWiq n AwvY ibnu drsn sMq ipAwry jIau ]1]

hau GolI jIau Goil GumweI gur drsn sMq ipAwry jIau ]1] rhwau ]

qyrw muKu suhwvw jIau shj Duin bwxI ]

icru hoAw dyKy swirMgpwxI ]

DMnu su dysu jhw qUM visAw myry sjx mIq murwry jIau ]2]

hau GolI hau Goil GumweI gur sjx mIq murwry jIau ]1] rhwau ]

iek GVI n imlqy qw kiljugu hoqw ]

huix kid imlIAY ipRA quDu BgvMqw ]

moih rYix n ivhwvY nId n AwvY ibnu dyKy gur drbwry jIau ]3]

hau GolI jIau Goil GumweI iqsu scy gur drbwry jIau ]1] rhwau ]

Bwgu hoAw guir sMqu imlwieAw ]

pRBu AibnwsI Gr mih pwieAw ]

syv krI plu csw n ivCuVw jn nwnk dws qumwry jIau ]4]

hau GolI jIau Goil GumweI jn nwnk dws qumwry jIau ] rhwau ]1]8]

Regarding the mis use of the word sant and it actually meaning Guru. All i can say is that is a total load of rubbish

Bhai Sahib, can you tell us who is being reffered to as Sant in this Shabad? Now it should be clear that Guru Sahibs have also been refferend to as Sant.

You also posted:

Also those that state that t

here where no sants during the times of Guru Ji well that is rubbish as well.

I believe you got mistaken by the argument. The person who posted this argument only asked as why was no Gursikh ever called with the 'title' Sant? You wrote about 'Baba' Sri Chand Ji, 'Baba' Gurditta Ji, 'Baba' Kaladhaar Ji, but I wonder why we don't see the word Sant attached to their name?

It is true that real Gursikhs are alive today aswell, but your bashing of AKJ is not correct. I have seen many Gursikhs touching feet of other Gursikhs after samagams, but it's always the higher avastha vaale Guru Pyare showing respects to those with lower avatha vaale people, such as myself, not the other way round.

I have personally seen many people who claim to be Sants, but when it comes to sharing Fateh, they seem to like those more who touch their feet! Is this a character of a Sant?

[simmal tree]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

Traditionally a saadhu is a person who renounces the world. However in Gurmat, a true Saadhu is somebody who renounces attachment to Maya. A saadhu is somebody who renounces the addiction to kaam, krodh, lobh, moh, ahankaar. For example in Gurbani it says,

"so saadhhoo bairaagee soee hiradhai naam vasaaeae ||

That person is a Holy Saadhu, and a renouncer of the world, whose heart is filled with the Naam.

a(n)thar laag n thaamas moolae vichahu aap gavaaeae ||

His inner being is not touched by anger or dark energies at all; he has lost his selfishness and conceit."

We could assume from this that Gurbani is saying "so saadhoo" or "that person is a holy Saadhu" and therefore a holy Saadhu is a PERSON.

A sant, a bhagat, a sevadar can be a holy Saadhu.

A religious devotee, a warrior poet, a humble scholar can be a holy Saadhu.

If they have not been touched by anger and dark energies, if they have lost their selfishness and conceit, and if their heart is filled with Naam.

I can safely say there have been some people in the world who fit that description.

so that means they were Saadhus.

So that means, secondary to Guru jee, there are Saadhus who are PEOPLE.

Okay so sants, bhagats, babas are people otherwise known as Saadhus.

Okay.

then,

kar saadhhoo a(n)julee pun vaddaa hae ||

Greet the H

oly Saint with your palms pressed together; this is an act of great merit.

kar dda(n)ddouth pun vaddaa hae ||1|| rehaao ||

Bow down to Him; this is a virtuous action indeed. ||1||Pause||

I'm not sure if Guru jee could be more clear than that :T:

please forgive my mistakes

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[anon]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

akjforever, sant jarnail singh jee khalsa bhindranwale told everyone not to call him a sant. he never said not to call him a sant cuz only guru sahib is supposed to referred to as a sant. but what he did say was something along the lines of....'have i given anyone a certificate that says that i am a sant'....basically showing that people can be called sants but sant jee was so humble that he told the sangat that hes not worthy of being called a sant.

if sant was referred to only guru sahib, sant jee would have told the sangat that its beadbi to be calling another person a sant, and only guru sahib is a sant.

but that doesnt even matter....its all written right there in front of us in gurbani as khalsapreet jee has shown us many times.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Son of Guru Gobind Singh Ji]

since anon posted about Baba Jernail Singh Ji Khalsa, I thought of writing something I saw with my own eyes when I went to meet Baba Thakur Singh Ji Khalsa..

When we were sitting with Baba ji, a lot of sangatta came after us and most of them tried to touch feet of Maha Purakh but he told each and everyone again and again that you are only supposed to touch feet of Guru Granth Sahib ji, and NO ONE else...

I wonder why he said that?

[Mkhalsa]

doing ustat of someone in or near their presence can make their haumai SKYROCKET. its like effectively slapping a gurmukh in the face. so why do it?

ustat in someones presence is just as bad as ninda behind their back. remember that well singho.

[kam1825]

son of Guru Gobind Singh please listen to the katha by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji on Gurmatveechar.com regarding Bhai Gurdas Di Varan they say the only time you shouldn't bow to sants is in the presence of Guru Sahib. Not at anypoint did they say you cannot touch Sants feet however they stated the one gets pun from doing it.

At old sant samagams they used to touch the feet of Baba Ishar Singh Ji Rara Sahib which i have been told about by Baba Hari Singh Ji showing the respect of Sadhus by Other Sadhus.

Remember The lineage of Taksal and that Baba Thakur Singh Ji learned from Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji. Sadhus are without ego and that is why they say these things.

The only question i will say is if you do bow to Either a Sant or the Satguru Granth Sahib Ji make sure that you have a full 100% in everything stated by them otherwise you yourselves are hypocrites and attain no fruit from your penance.

[jagjit_waheguru]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, just an observation:-

Since when has sants become a different entity in Sikhi where they need preferential treatment.

The highest stage of sikhism is to be come a Sikh. That is what Bhai Lehna ji was and why he became Sahib Siri Guru Angad dev Ji. Pro-sants veers mention Baba Siri Chand, but Sahib Siri Guru Nanak dev in the saakis showed his avasstha, and also how this led to his failings.

We should also just try to be Gursikhs, not sants, gyanis, maha purshes, etc. And we should collect the dhoor, not from one but from all the sadh sangat by doing Joorian de seva. Then maybe we will be blessed by Guru Ji and have a jeevan like Bhai Kanaya Ji and see Guru Ji in everyone.

A high jeevan is something that is blessed, and equally can be taken away aswell. A veer mentioned earlier sikhi is spread by sants. I disagree. Sikhi is spread by Bani, Bana, truthful living and sincerity. The core thing being Bani. No sants has anything shakti without bani, even Guru ji clarifies that he is nothing, and Bani Guru, Guru Hai Bani. Also Guru Moorat Gur Shabad hai, ( the image of the Guru is in the Shabad.) No sant can ever compare to Guru.

Lets try to be sikhs and Gursikhs, and let higher names be something that Guru Ji blesses us with, not something we bless ourselves with, or let others hype us or others with. In every true sikh, a light shines from their face, no-one is blind to that, and everyone knows it. They never need to say anything.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[amritk]

If your a brahmgiani and you see God in any other person or living thing, then by all means mathatek.

But if your the average person like me... just do what you think is right..

B)