Sikh Channel Spreading Caste System

[tulwar]

WJKK WJKF

I don't see the problem with mentioning the FACT that Bhagat Singh was a Sandhu, I really don't understand where caste comes into the equation. Jatts are not a caste but a ethnic tribal group, divided into clans, much like the Pashtuns. I don't see the problem with mentioning someone's ethnic/clan origin?

Look whether you like it or not, Jatts have distinct social, cultural and ethnic traits, even the Gurus maintained their Khatri marriage customs/traditions. Cultural heritages can be maintained without discriminating against others, things like separate gurdwaras in villages based on caste/ethnic/social lines is very wrong, and any other such practices that Guru Ji was against.

As for Jatt Sikhs making most of the Kurbani, well if I'm being honest, it's partially true. Speaking from first hand experience of Khalistani Sikhs in Punjab during the 80's, the movement was Jatt Sikh led and predominantly Jatt Sikh in support and numbers, this is not to discredit or lessen the contribution of other great Sikh Shaheeds were not from a Jatt background, I want to make this point very clear.

But I take the point, if it was repeated unnecessarily, then I find that rather pointless and annoying.

Here is my understanding of the entire situation....

The most shaheedian have been done by the Khalsa, who dont belong to any caste. Before 1984 90% of all shaheedian were done by the khalsa army. In order to become a true khalsa warrior you must forget what you know i.e. farming to understand warfare, if we had jats (term used as reference to a farmer) stratgising warfare we wouldnt be here right now. Yes if i wanted to grow corn or wheat i would most defitantley contact a farmer...do you see where i am going with this...i am not trying to be disrespectful...far from it. I am just trying to making a point that once you take Khandeh da Amrit your entire profession, lineage, background and society changes. If not then we can never fight as one unit on the battlefield.

Wise up...

The above is just my knowledge, you dont have to agree with it..

[Bundha]

As for Jatt Sikhs making most of the Kurbani

the movement was Jatt Sikh led and predominantly Jatt Sikh in support and numbers

credit or lessen the contribution of other great Sikh Shaheeds were not from a Jatt background,

I thought there was only one type of Sikh.............a Sikh!

[dalsingh101]

I think it's time to stop blaiming the jatts for everything and anything. Other groups do wrong and then play the jatt card to justify their actions. Rather than blaming the jatts for everything do you not think there might be some sort of inferiority complex issues with the other communities ?

What about the other perspective. That maybe jatts need to actually acknowledge and take on board some of the criticisms that come from from pretty much everywhere regarding them?

It is easy to talk of inferiority complexes (an action itself that appears to be yet another manifestation of an out of control ego), but what about the flipside of the coin and the rampant supremacist ideology that many people from that quarter espouse? Something akin to Nazi ideology. Plus we all know that the British manipulated the caste scene in India to their advantage, so hows about recognising some of the impact of this on the quom?

When we look at Sikh history of the 1700s, we do see serious contributions across jaats to the Sikh movement. Another factor that is often overlooked by people pushing the caste agenda is the fact that many nonSikh Jats actually fought against the Khalsa. I have a feeling that such people eventually joined Sikhi in droves having been beaten continuously by the Khalsa and their descendants are now trying to derail the egalitarian streak of the movement with their own manmatti.

[RDX]

WJKK WJKF

Khalse Jee, I don't know what to say, but time and again, it is becoming very common that Sikh Channel (840) is spreading the caste system and is probably a specific sect controlled channel. There are numerous programmes in which this has been seen -

One more Singh probably from some charity again mentioning - Jatt Sikhs are the only real Sikhs - giving 99% of Kurbanis?

I don't know what to say - but I don't see any Jatt Sikhs in any Sikhi Swaroop today. I am too a Jatt Sikh and all my relatives have become clean shaven Or cut their beards like anything. All I have seen what my relatives Jatt's Kurbani's as first Kesh Di Kurbani, then Sikhi Swaroop di Kurbaani, then drink alcohol and Sikhi Maryada Di kurbaani, then tear head of another warring Jatt faction group members - which leads to Kurbaani of another Jatt.

WJKK WJKF.

I also saw this and was quite disturbed. The chap in question was from Khalsa Aid. His word went along the lines of Jatts gave 95% of Kubanis and now people dislike/question them, Is this a suitable view for a senior charity worker to have? Secondly where does he get his figures from (can he back them up), is he really saying all the other castes put together only contributed 5% to Sikhi?

Khalsa Aid are meant to be spreading Sikhi, how can this possibly help? The discussion was about why so many in Punjab had converted to Christianity, is he surprised when he himself holds these views, these are the very reason why they convert. Sikhism has nothing to offer them and being told they contributed virtually nothing to Sikhism doesn't help. It’s sad that a organisation that does such good word should be associated with comments like these.

WJKK WJKF

ILook whether you like it or not, Jatts have distinct social, cultural and ethnic traits, even the Gurus maintained their Khatri marriage customs/traditions. Cultural heritages can be maintained without discriminating against others, things like separate gurdwaras in villages based on caste/ethnic/social lines is very wrong, and any other such practices that Guru Ji was against.

As for Jatt Sikhs making most of the Kurbani, well if I'm being honest, it's partially true. Speaking from first hand experience of Khalistani Sikhs in Punjab during the 80's, the movement was Jatt Sikh led and predominantly Jatt Sikh in support and numbers, this is not to discredit or lessen the contribution of other great Sikh Shaheeds were not from a Jatt background, I want to make this point very clear.

Khalistan is a contentious issue which I don’t want to go into now. The fact that Jatts predominantly led and supported Khalistan should tell you something, is it possible they had the most to gain? Ultimately it was two non Jatt, low castes bodyguards of Indera Gandhi who got the greatest prize for the Khalistan movement, surly that alone should qualify for a 5% contribution if Khalistan is the measure

You ^ have to do some 'research' about Southall....I live in Southall. Let me tell you something about these Afghani Sikhs. When they first came over they found it very hard to adjust to seeing Jatts (people they considered their inferior.......people they considered vulgar, rough, illiterate, rustic, rural) as their equals. They'd spent their whole lives using the term 'jatt boot' as a term of ridicule. Then they came here and found themselves surrounded by 'jatt boots'. They could not stand havinbg the control of anything, let alone the Gurdwaras, in the hands of the jatts. That....is why they've gone their own way.

I think it's time to stop blaiming the jatts for everything and anything. Other groups do wrong and then play the jatt card to justify their actions. Rather than blaming the jatts for everything do you not think there might be some sort of inferiority complex issues with the other communities ?

I don’t believe any other sikh community seriously considers themselves above Jatts, you may get the odd deluded person but this superiority complex is a Jatt thing and you argue all you want about ethnic tribes etc. With the media being mainly jatt controlled and nearly every Punjabi song with the word Jatt in it the situation is getting worse, not saying all Jatts but a good majority, certainly way more than other castes, tribes etc.

[dalsingh101]

That is just so sad if it was was someone from Khalsa Aid making those comments.

[West London Singh]

You ^ have to do some 'research' about Southall....I live in Southall. Let me tell you something about these Afghani Sikhs. *ADMIN EDITED*

Admin Deleted ??? :o

Good grief, anyone would think I said a rude word. All I stated was what I and every other Southall Sikh saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears. Thats a strange set of moderation standards you have here on Sikhsangat.com. You like the posts that are based on hearesay and a brief google search done whilst sitting hundreds of miles away from the scene....and yet you 'Admin Delete' first hand knowledge. That must be one hellava big bucket of sand you admins have at admin HQ. You seem to like burying your head in it at every opportunity. :wacko:

But seriously though, I don't understand from where my fellow sikhs, such as your good selves, picked up the habit of running from reality. That's not how I was brought up and that certainly doesn't fit in with my Sikh personality.

Every one of us Southall Sikhs remembers only too well of what was happening when Afghani sikhs started to arrive here in large numbers not that long ago. Perhaps the admins here may be able to pool their resources and invent some kind of state of the art memory erasing device. You could then travel up and down the country and erase any uncomfortable knowledge Sikhs up and down the country may have.

Perhaps this is the sad sign of the times re; us sikhs. Once were warriors....Afraid of nothing. Now...quivering wrecks....Even afraid of facts and knowledge.

:sad:

Oh...and by the way :

With the media being mainly jatt controlled and nearly every Punjabi song with the word Jatt in it the situation is getting worse

OK now.....this isn't the place to discuss popular Punjabi culture, and I'm the last one who would do so because I absolutely detest bhangra and bhangra songs. But.......I'm appaled at the ignorance that is sometimes displayed here. It's not 'getting worse'. It's the same as it's ever been but if anything, it's getting better. This is how bhangra and bhangra type songs started : At harvest time bands of baazigars and mirasis would travel rural Punjab and entertain the farmers at what was finally a joyous time. To please their audience the mirasis would sing songs about the farmers and the baazigars would perform dances that mimicked the farming movement of the farmers.

So.........Are you upset that the mirasis and baazigars didn't visit other groups whilst they were performing tax returns at the wonderfully joyous end of year tax deadline...and invent a dance that mimicked the use of the abacus ?

Are you upset that the mirasis and baazigars didn't visit other groups that were building houses at the wonderfully joyous occassion of the laying of the foundation....and lovingly mimick their screwdriver and hammer movements ? :happy:

[Malwai]

This Jatt being an ethnicity is all fine and dandy but majority of jatts ive come across see it as a caste, oh and they also think jatts are better than everyone else.

Maybe this is what jattism is all about

JATT 4 LYF BRAPP BRAPPP

These Jatts are just as ignorant as others when it comes to their heritage and background - it's easily done living in a rural homogeneous society for centuries. We are hardly known for our scholars or academics and as such failed miserably to accurately record our long history, pre-dating Sikhi, but research objectively without ignorance and you will find all the necessary evidence to prove my point. I've yet to meet anybody that can intellectually disprove what I am saying.

With regards to your video, why are you preaching to the converted, if you weren't so ignorant you would know I stated the following in my very first post in this thread:

Cultural heritages can be maintained without discriminating against others, things like separate gurdwaras in villages based on caste/ethnic/social lines is very wrong, and any other such practices that Guru Ji was against.

Ego is not something exclusively limited to Jatts as everyone is so keen to propagate, one of most poignant examples I can recall is a Punjabi Chamar family that looked at "Churas" with contempt and as inferior, says it all really. Dalits in Punjab are socially and economically vastly better off than their counterparts in other parts of India, this needs to be acknowledged, and this is simply down to the fact that there is no organised caste system in Sikhism, despite what anybody wants to think.

[dalsingh101]

Good grief, anyone would think I said a rude word. All I stated was what I and every other Southall Sikh saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears. Thats a strange set of moderation standards you have here on Sikhsangat.com.

I think your point was propaganda myself. I've met a few of those Afghan Sikhs and they are all the quiet, humble types who wouldn't say boo to a mouse. Besides, even if some of them say 'Jatboot' as you claim (which I think is lies or exaggeration at best) it isn't like they don't get called bhappay. So let's not act overly shocked.

I think this is what I hate most about apnay - the inability to transcend petty, minor chugleean and blatant caste based sniping. It has to be said, certain Sikhs don't seem happy unless they are doing nindaan of other groups, in a hyperbolic way. No wonder we get hammered from outsiders regularly with such petty internal squabbling.

God knows?

Knock yourselves out you Bahmanvaad casteist Sikhs.

[Malwai]

Here is my understanding of the entire situation....

The most shaheedian have been done by the Khalsa, who dont belong to any caste. Before 1984 90% of all shaheedian were done by the khalsa army. In order to become a true khalsa warrior you must forget what you know i.e. farming to understand warfare, if we had jats (term used as reference to a farmer) stratgising warfare we wouldnt be here right now. Yes if i wanted to grow corn or wheat i would most defitantley contact a farmer...do you see where i am going with this...i am not trying to be disrespectful...far from it. I am just trying to making a point that once you take Khandeh da Amrit your entire profession, lineage, background and society changes. If not then we can never fight as one unit on the battlefield.

Wise up...

The above is just my knowledge, you dont have to agree with it..

I'm sorry but your post makes no sense whatsoever - it's very naive, I'm not being disrespectful. First of all Jatt does NOT mean farmer, this is totally incorrect and a lie, the Punjabi word for farmer is "kissan". To prove this, Jatts are not the only farming tribe in Punjab - but the largest. What about the equally commendable Kamboj Sikh farmers belonging predominantly to the Majha belt of Punjab, also there are notable numbers of Saini Sikh farmers in Punjab.

[Delpiero]

Malwai i wasnt trying to disprove your point that jatts are an enthicity rather i was pointing at majority if not all jatts that i have come across consider it a caste or something to prop up their egos with how they are better etc... with a total disregard for Sikhi's anti caste stance. The ethnicity arguement will be soon enough if not already be used by Jatts to side step the caste issue, which alot of Jatts have a hard time dealing with. If their caste aint the best their ethnicity certainly will be, now they can be superior without feeling they are going against the Gurus teaching. (the word jatt can be replaced with any caste or ethnicity)

Cultural heritages can be maintained without discriminating against others

This seems to be easier said than done.

What are the cultural heritages of jatts?