Peaceful Rally At Ramgharia Sikh Temple Birmingham

[VanHelsingh]

Wonderful outcome. Well done to all involved (well, those who contributed constructively anyway).

[dalsingh101]

Really heartwarming news!

And all with none of the distasteful fracas that typically characterises disagreements between apnay. Well done Satkaar guys, hopefully this is a template for future discourse and progression in the UK.

It does show how polite exchanges can achieve more than the usual aggressive, threatening 'knocking turbans off heads' type jaloos.

[Pyara]

JOINT Press Release and Sangat Update by Satkaar Sevadaars and RST Birmingham

Birmingham, UK - 13 January 2011

RAMGARHIA SIKH TEMPLE, BIRMINGHAM AGREES TO STOP MEAT AND ALCOHOL PARTIES AT HALL

Peaceful rally on Saturday 15 January 2011 is cancelled though dialogue to continue in future

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Further to our previous Sangat Update on 4 January 2011, Satkaar Sevadaars and the Ramgarhia Sikh Temple (RST) Birmingham committee held an amicable and open meeting on Saturday 8 January 2011. Satkaar Sevadaars thanked the RST committee for the bold and positive step that they had taken to stop meat and alcohol parties at the Maharaja Jassa Singh Ramgarhia Hall (which had previously been running for 20 or so years) and for confirmation of their intention over the longer-term to comply with Akal Takhat Sahib's 2006 Sandesh. Accordingly, the peaceful rally planned on Saturday 15 January 2011 is cancelled.

The RST committee confirmed that no future bookings will be taken for meat and alcohol parties. In relation to the existing parties that have been booked, the relevant families will be provided with the option of having a vegetarian, non-alcoholic party at the hall or having the party entirely cancelled with a refund of the initial deposit. The existing bookings run until November, though since there is an immediate ban on meat and alcohol, it is expected that most, if not all, such parties will be cancelled (as has been the case with the most immediate parties). Upon request by the RST committee, Satkaar Sevadaars will also be willing to have any discussion required with an affected family.

The only outstanding point is the situation where individuals may wish to make a new booking for the hall to be used for family parties which are vegetarian and non-alcoholic in nature, but do permit dancing. The RST committee explained that such instances are likely to be few and far between. Satkaar Sevadaars had requested that these also be stopped in accordance with the 2006 Sandesh, but the RST committee has said it is not yet in a position to agree to this due to the local situation. Satkaar Sevadaars and the RST committee have agreed that they will continue to work together on this and to maintain an ongoing dialogue to reach the Gurmat-oriented solution.

Satkaar Sevadaars also made a humble request to the RST committee for their further assistance in the wider Satkaar Campaign, and there was a discussion on other issues on which the Khalsa Panth needs to unite in order to further propagate Gurmat Maryada in all UK Gurdwaras. The RST committee and Satkaar Sevadaars discussed how they could positively work together on these issues. The RST committee also demonstrated the many positive initiatives they undertake at the Gurdwara to ensure that Gurmat flourishes in future Sikh generations, and they thanked the Satkaar Campaign for their offer to hold Gurmat Camps at the Gurdwara.

There was also a frank discussion so as to clear any misunderstandings which may have arisen. The RST committee and Satkaar Sevadaars were also in full agreement that no individuals should ever make threatening phone calls or send abusive text messages, or knowingly spread false allegations (such as the President and General Secretary of the RST committee being alcoholics) on forums/public websites in the name of promoting Gurmat Maryada. Satkaar Sevadaars explained that to the extent that any individuals have taken such actions, they could not be held responsible for their actions, and once again, Satkaar Sevadaars requests individuals to refrain from such unacceptable behaviour.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

This is a very positive step that RST have taken, however the parchaar needs to carry on at a local, national and international level. There are still loose ends to tie up

It's an unfortunate situation that we have developed a culture of meetings which need to take place in order to discuss the obvious issue of meat, alcohol and parties not being appropriate for Gurdwara properties. But I suppose it's going to have to be change in gradual steps...

[11Gurus1Jot]

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

May be the committee members who facilitate this drinking to show that their strength is greater than that of the 10 guru's Jot, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj, should ask themselves the following questions:-

They should ask themselves, how many sikh children, watching 'their' adults, drinking alcohol, in a building, clearer associated to the Gurdwara, will drink alcohol when they grow up? Can they give a number/estimate?

They should ask themselves, how many of these Sikh children will become alcoholics, and then suffer any of the many many many problems associated with alcohol? Can they give a number/estimate?

They should ask themselves, are they certain all the meat will not be halal? The halal and non-halal meat chain in this country is seriously messed up. Muslims complain about it all the time... the mix up is both ways!!! Can these committee members guarantee they won't be feeding Sikh children halal meat in the Gurdware Halls? (By the way I know that no meat should be eaten in the Gurdwara, Halal or not Halal !!!).

They should ask themselves, when the 'men', have had a drink of alcohol, and they see the mothers, sisters, and daughters of their friends and relatives dance, will any inappropriate thoughts come into the minds of these 'men'? Can the committee members guarantee that the thoughts of the drunk/partly drunk men will not be inappropriate???

Why can't this drinking of alcohol, and chewing of dead animal corpses (sometimes baby animals - lambs), be done on the 99.9999999999......% percentage of this earth where it's allowed? . Why is it so important for 'them', to swallow animal corpses, and drink alcohol, on the very very very small percentage of this earth, where it should not be drank i.e. in the Gurdwara Halls? Why there?? They have the rest of the world to do it in, why in the Gurdware Halls????

Do these commitee members really believe that Guru Ji will bless them, for making these 'men', drink alcohol, in front of their mothers, sisters, and daughters, in a Gurdwara Hall?

Would they even entertain the idea of answering any of the above questions??

We all know that we can furnish these committe members with hundreds of shabads from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj explaining why they should not manipulate these 'men' into drinking alcohol, in the Gurdware Halls? But that's no good at all, because, they'll just ignore all the shabads. And that's the most confusing part... how can they ignore the very same Guru Ji, they claim to worship????

May Vaheguru bless all the Gursikhs, and their families, who are actively trying to stop this beadbi.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[JalandharSher]

Im disgusted by the total hypocrisy shown by the members of this forum, showing without doubt, why the Sikh Community is easily ridiculed and has never had any importance in the world since the Khalsa Raj.

First and foremost can even one imbecile on this forum please evidence even 1 example of ANY gurdwara that turns a blind eye to TOBACCO in the gurdwara? Yet many of the posts here refer to tobacco along with all other accusations for pure sensationalism.

Further, please provide evidence of which Ramgharia gurdwaras have photos of deities (Vishwakarma) in the gurdwara?? I am not "Ramgharia" just so you know.

And in the same breath, I can think of many examples including Slough Singh Sabha and South Birmingham Stratford Road Gurdwara that openly have photos of Bhindrawale with a necklace of bullets and an AK47 referred to as "Sant". So on the one hand you are saying that Ramgharia gurdwaras (not evidenced) have pictured of deities, and on the other, that its ok to have photos of a militant that indirectly resulted in the deaths of hundreds of sangat members, turning a holy place into a battleground, treated like a new "guru" in the gurdwara?? You idiots. Your arguments dont even have any logic. Remember 10 Gurus. Full stop. Not 10 gurus + any militant who walks into harminder sahib. If someone did what he did to Mecca, would the muslim community celebrate that and treat him as the next prophet?

Further, in your argument about sitting on floors and not sitting on floors for langar, if you had truly studied and understood the SGGS, you will notice that for langar it is a community kitchen provided by the gurdwara, which requires that everyone be at the same level. Nowhere does it say in the SGGS that it must be eaten whilst sat on the floor. If you know better, please evidence the slok from SGGS. And if you are going by the logic that people sat on the floor in Guru Nanak's time, at that time, langar only consisted of Daal roti, so can we please have some "anti beadbi" marches against ALL gurdwaras that serve chanay, subjee and dhai in the langar? Also, in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time, people fought with swords. Is Jarnail singh Bhindrawale then not committing beadbi by using an AK47?

Also, can we please remove toilet roll from all gurdwara toilets as this did not exist in Guru Nanak's time and this must be beadbi. Please also remove gurdwara central heating systems as these did not exist and we will need anti-beadbi riots like what you imbeciles did in Derby to campaign against this. Also any member of the sangat not wearing khaddar is also committing beadbi as Levi 501s did not exist in Guru Nanak's time..............

And also please quote sections of SGGS which says that a sikh can ONLY marry a sikh?? Again I am not married, but shocked by your collective ignorance.

And the majority of you talk about not paying any attention to caste - how many of you describe yourself as "jatt sikh" for the purposes of marriage? How many of you jatts married non jatt sikh partners. And if you ever see a mature sikh - totally clean shaven, I assure you he will be jatt. You hypocritical idiots. And which community are world famous for excessive drinking, predominantly meat diets, lack of educational achievement and a total lack of refinement? Thats right Jatts. So what is this holier than though crap you are spouting here???

And I can tell you with some confidence, that if you go to the universities up and down the country, firstly you will see very few sikhs at all in the best establishments e.g. Oxford and Cambridge, because perfectly illustrated by the level of education and intelligence shown on this forum, our community is not intelligent.

Most importantly, you need to understand that sikhism is not a religion run like islam. We do not issue fatwas and blindly follow egomaniacs.

And if you want to engage in proper debate, evidence every accusation, and quote where in our religion it says that. Or in absence of that, keep your uneducated mouths shut, as all you serve to do is to show up our community to the world that we are ALL imbeciles.

[Guest Ksingh5]

Im disgusted by the total hypocrisy shown by the members of this forum, showing without doubt, why the Sikh Community is easily ridiculed and has never had any importance in the world since the Khalsa Raj.

First and foremost can even one imbecile on this forum please evidence even 1 example of ANY gurdwara that turns a blind eye to TOBACCO in the gurdwara? Yet many of the posts here refer to tobacco along with all other accusations for pure sensationalism.

Further, please provide evidence of which Ramgharia gurdwaras have photos of deities (Vishwakarma) in the gurdwara?? I am not "Ramgharia" just so you know.

And in the same breath, I can think of many examples including Slough Singh Sabha and South Birmingham Stratford Road Gurdwara that openly have photos of Bhindrawale with a necklace of bullets and an AK47 referred to as "Sant". So on the one hand you are saying that Ramgharia gurdwaras (not evidenced) have pictured of deities, and on the other, that its ok to have photos of a militant that indirectly resulted in the deaths of hundreds of sangat members, turning a holy place into a battleground, treated like a new "guru" in the gurdwara?? You idiots. Your arguments dont even have any logic. Remember 10 Gurus. Full stop. Not 10 gurus + any militant who walks into harminder sahib. If someone did what he did to Mecca, would the muslim community celebrate that and treat him as the next prophet?

Further, in your argument about sitting on floors and not sitting on floors for langar, if you had truly studied and understood the SGGS, you will notice that for langar it is a community kitchen provided by the gurdwara, which requires that everyone be at the same level. Nowhere does it say in the SGGS that it must be eaten whilst sat on the floor. If you know better, please evidence the slok from SGGS. And if you are going by the logic that people sat on the floor in Guru Nanak's time, at that time, langar only consisted of Daal roti, so can we please have some "anti beadbi" marches against ALL gurdwaras that serve chanay, subjee and dhai in the langar? Also, in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time, people fought with swords. Is Jarnail singh Bhindrawale then not committing beadbi by using an AK47?

Also, can we please remove toilet roll from all gurdwara toilets as this did not exist in Guru Nanak's time and this must be beadbi. Please also remove gurdwara central heating systems as these did not exist and we will need anti-beadbi riots like what you imbeciles did in Derby to campaign against this. Also any member of the sangat not wearing khaddar is also committing beadbi as Levi 501s did not exist in Guru Nanak's time..............

And also please quote sections of SGGS which says that a sikh can ONLY marry a sikh?? Again I am not married, but shocked by your collective ignorance.

And the majority of you talk about not paying any attention to caste - how many of you describe yourself as "jatt sikh" for the purposes of marriage? How many of you jatts married non jatt sikh partners. And if you ever see a mature sikh - totally clean shaven, I assure you he will be jatt. You hypocritical idiots. And which community are world famous for excessive drinking, predominantly meat diets, lack of educational achievement and a total lack of refinement? Thats right Jatts. So what is this holier than though crap you are spouting here???

And I can tell you with some confidence, that if you go to the universities up and down the country, firstly you will see very few sikhs at all in the best establishments e.g. Oxford and Cambridge, because perfectly illustrated by the level of education and intelligence shown on this forum, our community is not intelligent.

Most importantly, you need to understand that sikhism is not a religion run like islam. We do not issue fatwas and blindly follow egomaniacs.

And if you want to engage in proper debate, evidence every accusation, and quote where in our religion it says that. Or in absence of that, keep your uneducated mouths shut, as all you serve to do is to show up our community to the world that we are ALL imbeciles.

Fantastic post.

[Pyara]

Im disgusted by the total hypocrisy shown by the members of this forum, showing without doubt, why the Sikh Community is easily ridiculed and has never had any importance in the world since the Khalsa Raj.

First and foremost can even one imbecile on this forum please evidence even 1 example of ANY gurdwara that turns a blind eye to TOBACCO in the gurdwara? Yet many of the posts here refer to tobacco along with all other accusations for pure sensationalism.

Further, please provide evidence of which Ramgharia gurdwaras have photos of deities (Vishwakarma) in the gurdwara?? I am not "Ramgharia" just so you know.

And in the same breath, I can think of many examples including Slough Singh Sabha and South Birmingham Stratford Road Gurdwara that openly have photos of Bhindrawale with a necklace of bullets and an AK47 referred to as "Sant". So on the one hand you are saying that Ramgharia gurdwaras (not evidenced) have pictured of deities, and on the other, that its ok to have photos of a militant that indirectly resulted in the deaths of hundreds of sangat members, turning a holy place into a battleground, treated like a new "guru" in the gurdwara?? You idiots. Your arguments dont even have any logic. Remember 10 Gurus. Full stop. Not 10 gurus + any militant who walks into harminder sahib. If someone did what he did to Mecca, would the muslim community celebrate that and treat him as the next prophet?

Further, in your argument about sitting on floors and not sitting on floors for langar, if you had truly studied and understood the SGGS, you will notice that for langar it is a community kitchen provided by the gurdwara, which requires that everyone be at the same level. Nowhere does it say in the SGGS that it must be eaten whilst sat on the floor. If you know better, please evidence the slok from SGGS. And if you are going by the logic that people sat on the floor in Guru Nanak's time, at that time, langar only consisted of Daal roti, so can we please have some "anti beadbi" marches against ALL gurdwaras that serve chanay, subjee and dhai in the langar? Also, in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time, people fought with swords. Is Jarnail singh Bhindrawale then not committing beadbi by using an AK47?

Also, can we please remove toilet roll from all gurdwara toilets as this did not exist in Guru Nanak's time and this must be beadbi. Please also remove gurdwara central heating systems as these did not exist and we will need anti-beadbi riots like what you imbeciles did in Derby to campaign against this. Also any member of the sangat not wearing khaddar is also committing beadbi as Levi 501s did not exist in Guru Nanak's time..............

And also please quote sections of SGGS which says that a sikh can ONLY marry a sikh?? Again I am not married, but shocked by your collective ignorance.

And the majority of you talk about not paying any attention to caste - how many of you describe yourself as "jatt sikh" for the purposes of marriage? How many of you jatts married non jatt sikh partners. And if you ever see a mature sikh - totally clean shaven, I assure you he will be jatt. You hypocritical idiots. And which community are world famous for excessive drinking, predominantly meat diets, lack of educational achievement and a total lack of refinement? Thats right Jatts. So what is this holier than though crap you are spouting here???

And I can tell you with some confidence, that if you go to the universities up and down the country, firstly you will see very few sikhs at all in the best establishments e.g. Oxford and Cambridge, because perfectly illustrated by the level of education and intelligence shown on this forum, our community is not intelligent.

Most importantly, you need to understand that sikhism is not a religion run like islam. We do not issue fatwas and blindly follow egomaniacs.

And if you want to engage in proper debate, evidence every accusation, and quote where in our religion it says that. Or in absence of that, keep your uneducated mouths shut, as all you serve to do is to show up our community to the world that we are ALL imbeciles.

There is no denying that we are all overlaid in some form of hypocrisy but your attack feels more like a blanket condemnation. You have just made generalisations based on your own naive resentments towards regards Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, Gurmat Maryada, Akal Takht, Castes etc and dressed it up as an "evaluation" of the Panth.

Brother, please share your ucha sucha jeevan with us? How is your amrit vela going nowadays? Any problems with any arth of Gurbani? How's your santhiya going? How's your shaster training going?

[K Singh 82]

JalandharSher,

I’m only going to pick out a few of your points.

“Also, in Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time, people fought with swords.”

Guru Gobind Singh Jee writes in Shaster Naam Mala…”As Kripan Khando Kharag Tupac Tubar Ar Teer, Saif Sarohee Saihthee, Yehai Hamre Peer”

Guru Jee lists a few shasters that he is a sacrifice to in it. I ask, what does “Tupac” mean? It means Gun, this indicates Guru Jee used guns on the battle field himself...else why would he praise the gun?

Also “Teero Tufango bado ramjango, Tamak Taar Aneear Kamand Korarar, Panj Shaster Parvaan”..here Guru Gobind Singh Jee refers to the panj shashter a tyaar bar tyar Khalsa should have in battle as a minimum. What is Tufango? It’s a rifle.

Now JalandharSher, are you going to tell me that you know more than Guru Gobind Singh Jee and can tell Guru Jee that he was wrong to use the gun or rifle?

“Is Jarnail singh Bhindrawale then not committing beadbi by using an AK47?”

According to the points listed above...there is no objection what so ever to use a gun/rifle to protect oneself or protect others according to Gurmat!

Regarding Sant Jarnail Singh, you are entitled to your opinion but the panth has accepted Sant Jarnail Singh as the Greatest Sikh of the 20th Century and up until now, no panthic jathebandi has challenged that. Also, Sri Darbar Sahib Museums contain paintings of Sant Jarnail Singh. If you have an objection with this all, then as a Sikh you have every right to take it up with Sri Akhaal Takht Sahib or are you just all talk?!?

[kkaur123]

I only got as far as the Vishkarma bit. Sounds like you are really upset.

I have seen with my own eyes cigarette buds in the car park and all around the building at Leeds Ramgharia. This is within the boundary of the Gurdwara. Evidence? Why don't you just take a drive up there and have a look.

I have seen with my own eyes a picture of Vishkarma in Woolwich Ramgharia.

Do i need to read the rest of the post?

Jalandharsher i would suggest you make your way back into your kennel and stay there.

If only you knew the importance of the Khalsa Panth to this world. Maybe you should take a look at your own Jeevan before you start to cuss Sants.

[chatanga]

Further, in your argument about sitting on floors and not sitting on floors for langar, if you had truly studied and understood the SGGS, you will notice that for langar it is a community kitchen provided by the gurdwara, which requires that everyone be at the same level. Nowhere does it say in the SGGS that it must be eaten whilst sat on the floor. If you know better, please evidence the slok from SGGS. And if you are going by the logic that people sat on the floor in Guru Nanak's time, at that time, langar only consisted of Daal roti, so can we please have some "anti beadbi" marches against ALL gurdwaras that serve chanay, subjee and dhai in the langar?

Jalandhar Sher, there are many points in your post but time restricts me to this quote only. I am sure that you havent read Aad Guru either as you have said above that langar is all about sitting at the same level, so it can be on the floor or tables. Eating at a equal level is only part of langar. Sitting on the floor is a sign of humility, and all the Guru's even though they were kings sat on the floor to take langar. Akbar took langar on the floor in our Gurus house.

Now if you take everyone being at a certain level as being the measure for pangat, why not do it in sangat, and raise Guru Ji's palki by 2 feet and have everyone sit on chairs in the Darbar? We will all being sitting at equal level on chairs and Guru Ji will be sitting at a higher level wont we?

Not being written in Guru Granth Sahib has no bearing on it, as there were Guru's who did not add to Gurbani, so if you say that 6th Guru did not write Gurbani should we abandon miri piri? Of course not.

Guru taught Sikhs to be humble always, and your post is quite full of ignorance and a little stupidity as well.

I would like to know how you know that only Dal roti was used in langar during Guru Ji's times? I know and you know that you dont because you havent read Aad Guru.