Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I have had this question for a while, and I see a lot of discrimination of Bibiya in Sikhi, when it comes to some things. Such as some people feel that bibiya cannot do seva in Panj-Piyaare and also when we are taking Saroop of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, they cannot be part of 'Panjs' because they are women. How is that fair? I thought Sikhi taught equality? How can we stop someone from doing certain seva because they are Women? Has braminmatt gotten into us? Did Waheguru make Men better than Women? if not, then how can we allow these things to happen?

Bhull Chuk Maaf.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bibia most certainly may take part in Panj Pyare Seva. Please refer to Article XXIII b of Panthic Sikh Rehat Maryada:

'b. At the place where ambrosial baptism is to be administered, the holy Guru Granth Sahib should be installed and ceremonially opened. Also present should be six committed baptised Sikhs, one of whom should sit in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib and the other five should be there to administer the ambrosial baptism. These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair'

http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

There is no seva in Sikhi which a bibi cannot do.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
I would also like to add that the western concept of equality (which the current generation is aware of) is not necessarily the same in Gurmat.

Well then its not equality is it ?

Thats like saying western concepts of the number 'three' is not the same as gurmat.

You either have equality or you don't. Our faith gave us equality but over the years we, as people, have been so influenced by the unequal practices of the Hindus and Muslims around us that we have not only moved away from equality but we've even tried to justify the inequality with gurmat.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bibia most certainly may take part in Panj Pyare Seva. Please refer to Article XXIII b of Panthic Sikh Rehat Maryada:

'b. At the place where ambrosial baptism is to be administered, the holy Guru Granth Sahib should be installed and ceremonially opened. Also present should be six committed baptised Sikhs, one of whom should sit in attendance of the Guru Granth Sahib and the other five should be there to administer the ambrosial baptism. These six may even include Sikh women. All of them must have taken bath and washed their hair'

http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_six.html

There is no seva in Sikhi which a bibi cannot do.

A couple of professors and a notebook doesnt make it panthic.

Heres the gurmat view on womens role, given by Sant Ji

Either hes right or you are, i know who I have my trust in.

If thats still not enough

Krith Bilaas Paathshahee Dasvee

paa(n)ch si(n)gh a(n)mrith jo dhaevai(n) thaa(n) ko sir dhhar shhak pun laevai ||apun mil paa(n)cho rehith jo bhaakhai thaa(n) ko man mae(n) dhrirr kar raakhai ||

Offer you head and take the Amrit prepared by five Singhs. The code of conduct (Rehat), which they bless you with, should be enshrined in one's heart.

Refers to 5 Singhs, not 5 Sikhs, not 5 anything else, but 5 Singhs.

  • Like 3
  • Downvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well then its not equality is it ?

Thats like saying western concepts of the number 'three' is not the same as gurmat.

You either have equality or you don't. Our faith gave us equality but over the years we, as people, have been so influenced by the unequal practices of the Hindus and Muslims around us that we have not only moved away from equality but we've even tried to justify the inequality with gurmat.

Show me a man who can give Birth and ill accept your concept of equality.

If Akal Purakh has made man and women different, physically, emotionally , chemically, physiologically etc.. then who are we to say man and women are the same.

Notice im not implying man is superior, i am just saying man and women are different, neither is higher or lower, better or worse but different. Each has its own roles, its own purpose. Sant Ji says those who say Women should be able to are, nastik.

Your notion of equality implies man=women, so when it comes to marriage if man and women are equal is man+man or women+women ok, in gurmat?

  • Like 3
  • Downvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Congratulations Harmeet Singh......You've just single handedly destroyed the number one selling point of Sikhism in the world........The number one reason that we use to tell Sikh females to stay with sikhism and not go off with muslims..........The number one reason that people around the world describe it as the "best religion" : Complete and utter equality between men and women.

Congratulations. You've just shut the door on half the population of the world. Well done.

Now tell me.......what kind of thick female in this world would be attracted to a faith (as you understand it) that treats her unequally ? You do realise don't you that of all the reasons that non-sikhs give for liking Sikhism the number one reason by far is the equality between the sexes ?

  • Like 3
  • Downvote 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple of professors and a notebook doesnt make it panthic.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUJLDFMNsNUHeres the gurmat view on womens role, given by Sant Jihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI1NhqZ975o&playnext=1&list=PL7C6E53A358364B14Either hes right or you are, i know who I have my trust in.If thats still not enoughKrith Bilaas Paathshahee Dasveepaa(n)ch si(n)gh a(n)mrith jo dhaevai(n) thaa(n) ko sir dhhar shhak pun laevai ||apun mil paa(n)cho rehith jo bhaakhai thaa(n) ko man mae(n) dhrirr kar raakhai ||Offer you head and take the Amrit prepared by five Singhs. The code of conduct (Rehat), which they bless you with, should be enshrined in one's heart.Refers to 5 Singhs, not 5 Sikhs, not 5 anything else, but 5 Singhs.

If we can't stick to panthic maryada how are we part of the panth? Panthic Maryada says Bibia can be in Panj Pyare. In regards to Srimaan Baba Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa, I will lower my head in respect countless times, however at the same time Baba Jarnail Singh Ji nor any other human is not infallible, Guru Maharaj says:

ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥

Bẖulaṇ anḏar sabẖ ko abẖul gurū karṯār.

Everyone makes mistakes; only the Guru and the Creator are infallible.

The Guru is in the roop of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and the Panth, and neither say that bibia cannot be in Panj Pyare. We can only follow the Guru above all.

And in regards to your rehatnama quote, there are many different rehats which are universally accepted to apply to both singhs and kaurs,however only the word singh is used, but with the intent to apply to both. Khalsa Panth is known as Panth of Singhs however we know that that applies to both kaur and singh, the term 'Singh' can include Kaurs depending on the context, eg.rehatname.

Show me a man who can give Birth and ill accept your concept of equality.If Akal Purakh has made man and women different, physically, emotionally , chemically, physiologically etc.. then who are we to say man and women are the same.Notice im not implying man is superior, i am just saying man and women are different, neither is higher or lower, better or worse but different. Each has its own roles, its own purpose. Sant Ji says those who say Women should be able to are, nastik. Your notion of equality implies man=women, so when it comes to marriage if man and women are equal is man+man or women+women ok, in gurmat?

Difference does not mean inequality. Also this difference is biological, biology is not related to spirituality. This is why the updesh of Naam given by Satguru (and gursikhi as a whole) transcends all differences of class, caste, gender, etc.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Congratulations Harmeet Singh......You've just single handedly destroyed the number one selling point of Sikhism in the world........The number one reason that we use to tell Sikh females to stay with sikhism and not go off with muslims..........The number one reason that people around the world describe it as the "best religion" : Complete and utter equality between men and women.

Congratulations. You've just shut the door on half the population of the world. Well done.

Now tell me.......what kind of thick female in this world would be attracted to a faith (as you understand it) that treats her unequally ? You do realise don't you that of all the reasons that non-sikhs give for liking Sikhism the number one reason by far is the equality between the sexes ?

I agree with Harmeet. We all adopt Equality in the western sense. Saying men and women are different does not make them unequal. Saying women can't to seva of Panj does not make them inferior.

Are husband and wife the same? Are they equal? Most married people have different roles in their home. Similarly men and women have different roles in Sikhi. Does not mean anyone is inferior or seen as weak or UNEQUAL.

The problem is we get our ideas from school, media and other social factors. Just because something may not make sense to us does not make it wrong.

Someone once told me that if you go to a Guru Ghar and try to do a particular seva and someone stops you, you should move on and do something different. Remember Nimrata. Problem is we have so much ego we start arguing.

So our women run off and convert to islam to be equal do they? Do they think they will be equal in islam? lol

Our selling point? Sikhi has numerous Shaheeds of whom some were women. Try that for a selling point.

Before sikhi women were not allowed to pray in some religion. Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj changed this.

A women has as much chance to achieve Mukhti as a man in Sikhi. Women probably have the most important role in Sikhi. They give birth to great Gursikhs.

If being part of the Panj was the only way to reach our lifes goal then sure we could stand up and say this is not eqaulity. But trust me this isn't the be and and end all of life.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with Harmeet. We all adopt Equality in the western sense. Saying men and women are different does not make them unequal. Saying women can't to seva of Panj does not make them inferior.

Are husband and wife the same? Are they equal? Most married people have different roles in their home. Similarly men and women have different roles in Sikhi. Does not mean anyone is inferior or seen as weak or UNEQUAL.

A Norwegian is different to a Greek. A Brummie is different to a cockney. But that doesn't give us a right to use that difference as a reason to practice inequality.

I go out and work. My wife goes out to work. My wife cooks the meals and cleans the house but most of the time it is me that cooks for the kids and cleans the house. My wife, coming from rural Punjab, has been in 100% more physical violent confrontations than I ever have. The differences you highlight are all superficial. Sikhi knows that. There is nothing a man can do in Sikhi that a woman can not do. The sooner you realise that the better.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
You cleaning the house explains a lot about you.

No my friend. It probably tells us more about you.

The sikhi my parents brought me up with teaches us complete and utter equality. it is for that reason that no man in our house ever visits pubs...stays out at night...or drinks. We know that if we did all we would be doing is setting the wrong example for our sisters and daughters who would be within their rights to do exactly the same.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it hilarious that people manage to use Sikhi in a way that suppresses women. Sikhi is here to liberate women and show that they are equal to men, as well other kinds of equality by nullifying caste, class and any other kind of man made barrier designed to segregate people including amritdhari and non amritdhari. This is pure brahman vaad.

Most of this is pure baba-ism and not Sikhism. Iv heard it suggested by some gullible Sikhs, including women, that the reason that why some women have facial hair growing is because they are demanding their rights too much so akaal purakh is granting their wishes by giving them facial hair and turning them into men, hence they shouldnt demand their rights lol..

Listening to the fairy tales of certain babas and hiding behind certain dogmatic maryadas is nothing short of sexual discrimination. People should go back to simple tenets of Sikhi such as equality and use their own brain from there.

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

No my friend. It probably tells us more about you.

The sikhi my parents brought me up with teaches us complete and utter equality. it is for that reason that no man in our house ever visits pubs...stays out at night...or drinks. We know that if we did all we would be doing is setting the wrong example for our sisters and daughters who would be within their rights to do exactly the same.

No my friend what i meant was you are not capable of having a discussion. Instead you don't listen and carry on babling your rubbish. You select what you don't like and start going on about it. I posted alot more in my first post and you ignored it all.

It is very good you do household tasks equally with your wife. I commend you for this.

But that doesn't mean that a man who doesn't is treating his wife unequally. In some houses the woman does not work and instead she does housework. This does not make that house unequal. Or does it?

My friend sikhi is life. You don't leave it behind at the Gurdwara when you come home. Women give birth and men don't. That is a difference. So believe it or not in Sikhi men don't give birth. But it does not mean they are not equal.

Let me put it this way. Sikhi wasn't started because men were not doing the housework.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • This forum post talks about it. Has to do with energy during meditation.  https://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/17608-importance-of-tiger-skin-during-meditation/
    • There's a lot of homeless Punjabis/South Asians as well, especially in areas with a large South Asian population like Southall. There used to be homeless Punjabis sleeping under that big bridge near Southall. The Sikh channel helped them I think. Most of them were on drugs. They said when they go to the Gurdwara to eat the management would chase them out. If they asked the management if they can have a shower they would say no. So the Gurdware aren't very helpful!  But the Gurdware probably chased them out because they are on drugs. But its still wrong to chase them out. With all the doctors in our community, you would think some would take time out on weekends and give people advise at Gurdware, but they don't do that ...  We used to have some Punjabi lawyers come to our local Gurdwara to give people advise, but they weren't volunteering they were doing it for money. For a few weeks I volunteered with charity which fed homeless people in the highstreet. Majority of them are on drugs, its hard to imagine them assimilating into society, though its possible.  A lot of homeless people used to eat at our local Gurdwara, but some of them were very rude to the sangat doing sewa, so the sangat had to call the police!  I do feel sorry for these people, I always keep some pound coins in my pocket.     And then there's some fake homeless people who choose to beg because they make more money begging than they would in a normal 9-5 job!   Not far from where I live is a town Windsor, and people go there to beg and then they go  back home in a taxi!  lol!    
    • The person with the blue skin is Baba Sri Chand Ji and the baby was the son of Baba Lakhmi Das Ji, the second son of Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj. Here is the Sakhi from SikhWiki:    Preserving the Family Lineage "Babaji stretches his arm into the sky and brings baby Dharm Chand to earth to save Guru Nanak Dev ji’s lineage. While Babaji himself lived an ascetic life, he not only supported family life, he actually raised the baby Dharm Chand and arranged his marriage One day brother Lakhmi Chand ji had been hunting. Babaji told him it was a sin to kill innocent animals and that he would have to give account in God’s court. Hearing this Baba Lakhmi Chand took his entire household, even the dog, mounted his horse and rode toward Heaven. Baba Siri Chand ji realized that his brother’s baby Dharm Chand was the last descendent of Guru Nanak Dev ji. If the baby left too there would be no one to carry on Guru ji’s blood line. So Baba Siri Chand ji stretched out his arm into the sky, lifted the baby from his brother’s lap, brought him back and raised him as his own son" (SikhiWiki, 2012).   
    • http://sttm.co/s/5158/58423 ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥ Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider. ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥ Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use