Few Questions

[Kaal]

Mat Pulo Rai, my post and Kulbir Singhs on Gurmat Bibek (in the link provided) explains why Raja Janak and other devotees could not have reached Saachkhand before Kalyug and without going through Guru Sahib. We used quotes from Guru Granth Sahib jee to prove this. Of course, Raja Janak, Prahlaad etc are in Saachkhand now but not before Kalyug and without Satguru Nanak. There is no point in quoting Gursikhs, its better that you have an understanding yourself through Naam Experience and gaining knowledge from Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaaran and Dasam Granth.

[MokhamSingh]

@Kaal and people who think that no one reached Vaheguru or Sachkand before Guru Nanak is wrong, God sent many GurMukhs before he sent Guru Nanak Dev Jee who cemented the Daram of Such and left us with Dhan Guru Granth Shiab

I only have to give 1 example out of 10+ thats Raja Janak he was Brahm Giaani (my source is Sant Isher Singh), according to Guru Arjan Dev Jee, Brahm Giiani is one who has Merged With VaheGuru, there isnt a higher Avasta than this.

If anyone wants more examples and where it says within Gurbani that people had reached Sach Kandh before Guru Nanak Dev Jee, ill happily reply.

Khalsa Ji

Kaal . Gursikh , and your goodself are correct in what you are saying. Khalsa Ji it has to be taken into account that there are different levels of Mukti/liberation. Not are are afforded the same status in Sachkhand.

Look at the following scenario:

When we as Gursikhs hopefully lose our vashna {desires} in this life time and reach Guru Ji's door are we going to have the same status/kamaiee as Guru Nanak/Guru Gobind Singh Ji or the likes of Bhai Mani Singh shaheed/Baba Deep Singh/Baba Nand Singh etc.....

The answer is NO , their kamaiee is much greater than ours but it just so happens that we're all part of the same Gursikhi school.

Sant Isher Singh are correct in stating that numerous people attained liberation but they also say that Devteh yearn for manukha dehi {human life} since this is the only opportunity to progress in Naam Kamaiee.

Khalsa Ji Khandey Di Pahaul , if strictly adhered to , blesses one with the ultimate liberation.

[VanHelsingh]

Sant Isher Singh are correct in stating that numerous people attained liberation but they also say that Devteh yearn for manukha dehi {human life} since this is the only opportunity to progress in Naam Kamaiee.

I've always wondered about this concept of Devteh and their desire to be born as humans. Why do they not just recite Naam where ever they happen to be at this moment in time? Does it not count unless they're human?

[MokhamSingh]

I've always wondered about this concept of Devteh and their desire to be born as humans. Why do they not just recite Naam where ever they happen to be at this moment in time? Does it not count unless they're human?

KhalsaJi

No kamaiee without manukha dehi {human body}.......

ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ॥

Na▫o niḏẖ amriṯ parabẖ kā nām.

The nine treasures are in the Ambrosial Name of God.

ਦੇਹੀ ਮਹਿ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੁ ॥

Ḏehī mėh is kā bisrām.

Within the human body is its place of rest.

[Kaal]

Mokham Singh Jee is right -

ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਮਾਈ ॥

Serving the Guru, devotional worship is practiced.

ਤਬ ਇਹ ਮਾਨਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥

Then, this human body is obtained.

ਇਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਦੇਵ ॥

Even the gods long for this human body.

ਸੋ ਦੇਹੀ ਭਜੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਸੇਵ ॥੧॥

So vibrate that human body, and think of serving the Lord. ||1||

ਭਜਹੁ ਬਿੰਦ+ਗ ਭੂਲਿ ਮਤ ਜਾਹੁ ॥

Vibrate, and meditate on the Lord of the Universe, and never forget Him.

ਮਾਨਸ ਜਨਮ ਕਾ ਏਹੀ ਲਾਹੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

This is the blessed opportunity of this human incarnation. ||1||Pause||

Also, I would just like to add that a Gursikh can reach a spiritual level as high as Baba Buddha Jee, Baba Deep Singh, Bhai Mani Singh, Banda Singh Bahadur etc. In fact, a Gursikh can reach higher depending on how much effort they put into the Bhagti by practicing all of Guru Granth Sahib Jee's teachings.

[VanHelsingh]

@ Kaal and Mokham Singh Ji - Okay makes sense now.

Wow, I guess we're lucky to be born human.

[Mat Pulo Rai]

Mat Pulo Rai, my post and Kulbir Singhs on Gurmat Bibek (in the link provided) explains why Raja Janak and other devotees could not have reached Saachkhand before Kalyug and without going through Guru Sahib. We used quotes from Guru Granth Sahib jee to prove this. Of course, Raja Janak, Prahlaad etc are in Saachkhand now but not before Kalyug and without Satguru Nanak. There is no point in quoting Gursikhs, its better that you have an understanding yourself through Naam Experience and gaining knowledge from Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaaran and Dasam Granth.

I understand fully that you belive that No one before Guru Nanak Dev could reach Vaheguru, But I totally disagree, not due to my own intelligence telling me , rather that Gurbani states this also that Sant Isher Singh has said in his katha that Raja Janak was 1 with God, the term is called Brahm Giaani, only someone that has merged with God can be given this status, any other Avasta have their own names but the Highest is GurMukh/Brahm Giaani, Ive read the post which you linked in which Kulbir singh gives examples, sorry but he is wrong due to the nature of understanding of Guru Bani, one can only fully understand what Gurbani is saying if one has Bibek Budh, which is attained once we reach Sant avasta, which is Unhadh Shabad, Amrit Raas and Seehj,

The avasta is stated in Gurbani, Gurbani is Kooj of Akath and is called Akath Katha, and this is the stage which you need to be too give full and the right explanations of Sat Gur Bani.

igAwnu iDAwnu Duin jwxIAY AkQu khwvY soie ]

giaan dhiaan dhun jaaneeai akath kehaavai soe

As this Bani is compiled from Sachkhand is called Maha Purkhs Ki Bani, those Maha Purchs vasa is within Niigh Khaar

The reason I gave Sant Isher singhs reference was due that fact he had Met Seen and could Hear Vaheguru at all times, and he has full understanding of Sat Gurus Bani

So if there is anyone here that reached this avasta then im Balahaar, and will take anything you say as Gospel.

[Kaal]

Mat Pulo Rai, first answer this question, I know the answer but I want to know your understanding - In what age/yug was Raja Janak born?

[11Gurus1Jot]

I think Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindrawale was speaking the message of Gurbani when he said:

"A Hindu should be a true Hindu"

"A Muslim should be a true Muslim"

"A Sikh should be a true Sikh"

So to be a true Hindu, you can't eat beef (there are other rules you have to follow to be true), to be true Muslim you can't eat Pork (there are other rules you have to follow to be true), to be a true Sikh, you have to take Amrit (there are other rules you have to follow to be true),

You could extend this to "A person of any religion should be a true person of that religion" eg Christianity and Judaism (the are rules you have to follow to be true in that religion)

The above is the message of our Gurus (Sant Jarnail Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindrawale was just reminding us of the Guru's teachings). If you go into that message deeper it means you can find God through all religions if you follow them as directed by the founders. So the simple answer is if you call yourself a Sikh of the Guru's you have to follow the Guru's message/instruction/code of discipline/ or use the Guru's Sense, rather than your own sense and made up rules. The Guru's sense and way of life is 'Gurmat'. Your own sense and way of life is your own made up rules or a mish mash of many litter bits of rules from here, there and everywhere, which is 'manmat'.

It's easier to follow Gurmat, as Kaal says above, Gurmat is in Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vara, and Dasam Granth. You will find that there is a very strange correlation or connection or pattern that proves what Kaal stated above. That is, those that read, study and follow Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vara, and Dasam Granth take Amrit, those that don't follow Guru Granth Sahib Jee, Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vara, and Dasam Granth don't take Amrit.

Generally we shouldn't worry too much about what other people, of religions other than Sikhi, believe in. Our 9th Guru, Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji made a unique sacrifice never made in history, before or after. Our 9th Guru Sacrificed himself for freedom of worship. Our 9th Guru saved a religion he did not follow himself. We should follow that example, and the example of his son, our 10th Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji. That is, we should be the best Sikhs we can be by following Gurmat, while allowing all other religions to practice their religion. We should at the same time be here for anybody who wants to be a Sikh of the Guru, of there own free choice and will, after Guru Ji's Kirpa has been bestowed on them!!

If we call our self a Sikh, then there's no doubt that our ULTIMATE goal should be to take Amrit de Pahul from the Panj Piyare !!

[Mat Pulo Rai]

Mat Pulo Rai, first answer this question, I know the answer but I want to know your understanding - In what age/yug was Raja Janak born?

Dont see how this shows the extent of my attained knowledge, but he was the Raja of Treta Jug. I think the more pressing issue and the one that will define, whether we are on the same page is Do you doubt Sant Isher Singh jee, if so who do you reference.

This is not to cause a rift, as i know many people within Sikhi make there own views according to what makes sense to them. But im one which believes that my intelligence is not on Par with Guru Shaib and so look to there Sants, Gurmukhs for guidance.