Few Questions

[Consciousness]

Can't wait to see the (dead) faces of the Christians, Muslims and Jews as they have to settle for "Heaven", lol. I'd love to see their reaction when they're told they have to be reborn especially when they don't even believe in the concept of rebirth!!! Imagine their disbelief when they're told that their "Heaven" isn't all it's cracked up to be, lol. They'll be merked big-time!

Expect to hear a lot of "What was the point of THAT?", i.e. in reference to the life-time they just completed. :biggrin2:

Hopefully I won't be the one merked if someone tries to send me to Narak. I ain't going to tolerate that! I'll kick up a fuss and demand to see the manager! If a Singh turns up I'll be okay but if St. Paul appears I'm done for because he's probably racist. :nono:

LOL but you can tell Dharam Raj that you have 'Gurmat naam' that is far superior than every other religion. You can take everyone out of hell because they only have kirtam naam or nothing. Kaljugi ji can you please give me brahm gian? :biggrin2:

[Guest harpinder singh]

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥

bin sathigur kinai n paaeiou bin sathigur kinai n paaeiaa ||

Without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord; without the True Guru, no one has obtained the Lord.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਪੁ ਰਖਿਓਨੁ ਕਰਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ॥

sathigur vich aap rakhioun kar paragatt aakh sunaaeiaa ||

He has placed Himself within the True Guru; revealing Himself, He declares this openly.

Guru Sahib ang 466

[VanHelsingh]

LOL but you can tell Dharam Raj that you have 'Gurmat naam' that is far superior than every other religion. You can take everyone out of hell because they only have kirtam naam or nothing. Kaljugi ji can you please give me brahm gian? :biggrin2:

Dharam Raaj should already know! :biggrin2:

As for brahmgyan, I think it'll take me a few more million lifetimes to attain it for myself. If you can wait that long then no problem. :cool2:

[Kaal]

‘Consciousness’, you do clearly not understand Guru Sahib’s level. You stated here:

‘Even guru Gobind singh ji in jaap sahib says he can’t describe all of God’s qualities hence cannot know limits.’

However, Guru Sahib is the same as Vaheguru, so he does know Vaheguru’s limit. The JYOT that was inside of Guru Nanak/Guru Gobind Singh – Guru Granth Sahib jee is Vaheguru’s jyot. He is just stating that there are many more qualities of God which cannot be described due to our lowly mat.

You stated that Gurmukh means Bhramgyanee however, Bhai Gurdas Jee states here –

Awid purK Awdysu hY siqguru scu nwau sdvwieAw]

Salutation to that primal Lord who is known by the True name of Satguru.

cwir vrn gurisK kir gurmuiK scw pMQu clwieAw]

Transforming all the four varnas into the Sikhs of the Guru, that True Guru (Guru Nanak Dev) has initiated a True way for the Gurmukhs.

Satguru, according to Gurbani is Guru Nanak who is Vaheguru himself. So, the only way to go into Saachkhand will be going through Vaheguru himself who took the roop of Guru Nanak. The above pauri states that the TRUE PANTH was created for Gurmukhs to follow. Similarly, Guru Gobind Singh Jee (Dasam Granth) states –

iqn ieh kl mo Drmu clwXo ] sB swDn ko rwh bqwXo ]

He (Guru Nanak Dev) promulgated this religion (Sikhism) in the Iron age. He showed the (genuine) way to all the saints.

Saadh is a sant, and it states the saints were shown the true way. So, someone from another faith can become a Gurmukh and Sant of Vishnu, but not of Vaheguru.

Now, here –

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾ ਮਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਊਤਮ ਜਨਕ ਜਨਾਕ ॥

(Within the Sants (Gursikhs) of Hari, there is Har Har Gurmat Naam and for this reason, they are superior to Janak and likes of Janak).

This is where our understanding is different. Even though Gurbani mentions many different kirtam names of God, they are there to give us an understanding of SatNaam (Vaheguru). For instance, Gurbani calls Saachkhand BAIKUNTH, but the real name Saachkhand is only used once or twice whereas Baikunth is used many times -

ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਨਗਰੁ ਜਹਾ ਸੰਤ ਵਾਸਾ ॥

The city of heaven is where the Saints dwell.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਚਰਣ ਕਮਲ ਰਿਦ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸਾ ॥੧॥

They enshrine the Lotus Feet of God within their hearts. ||1||

However, we know that Baikunth is Vishnu’s realm as Gurbani states there are many Baikunths, but we know there is only ONE Saachkhand, so Baikunth is referring to Vishnu’s realm here –

ਕੋਟਿ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੀ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

Millions of heavenly paradises are within the scope of His Vision.

In the same way, Gurbani refers to the Gurmat Naam when using Har, Ram, Allah etc, but the real name, Vaheguru, has only been used once or twice too.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਰੋਗੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਈ ॥

Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva suffer from the disease of the three gunas - the three qualities; they do their deeds in egotism.

These kirtam names come from Vishnu (Bisan) which Raja Janak used. The above shabad states that Vishnu suffers from the rog of Haumai, which means he is imperfect. Thus, his name is imperfect too, so how can an imperfect name make Raja Janak, Prahlaad, Dhroo, Ramanand, Bhagat Kabeer, Bhagat Nam dev etc perfect?

Vaheguru Naam comes from Vaheguru himself who is without this rog of Haumai. Hence, the Naam is as Perfect as Vaheguru so it will make the reciter perfect too. This is where you have to make sense out of Kirtam Names and Satnaam; it’s who it came from and the owner can either be perfect or imperfect, so the effect of the name can only be perfect or imperfect.

Now, Bhai Gurdas Jee in his Vaaran proves how imperfect Kabir, Nam Dev etc were before they met Guru Nanak –

kljuig nwmw Bgqu hoie Pyir dyhurw gwie ijvweI]

In Kalyuga, a devotee named Naamdev made the temple rotate and dead cow alive.

Bgqu kbIru vKwxIAY bMdI Kwny qy auiT jweI]

It is said Kabir used to go out of prison as and when he liked.

DMnw jtu auDwirAw sDnw jwiq Ajwiq ksweI]

Dhanna, the jet (farmer) and Sadhana born in a known low cast butcher got across the world ocean.

jnu rivdwsu cmwru hoie chu vrnw ivic kir vifAweI]

Considering Ravi Das a devotee of the Lord, all the four varnas praise him.

byix hoAw AiDAwqmI sYxu nIcu kulu AMdir nweI]

Beni, the saint was a spiritualist, and born in a so-called low barber caste Sain was a devotee (of Lord).

pYrI pY pw Kwk hoie gurisKW ivic vfI smweI]

Falling at and becoming the dust of the feet is the great trance for the Sikhs of the Guru (their caste should not be considered).

AlKu lKwie n AlKu lKweI ]15]

The devotees, though they behold the imperceptible Lord, yet do not disclose this to anyone.(15)

A Gursikh of Guru Nanak is perfect as he/she has no haumai so it completely humble, as he does not disclose his shaktia as the above bhagats have done and does not make him/her self known.

[11Gurus1Jot]

theres an error there mate

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

Rebel Singh Ji,

Sorry about the error and a million thanks for spotting it, I have corrected my orginal post. Please can you edit your post picking up my error as we don't want some Sikh child getting the wrong message from my error!

Thanks again!

[Consciousness]

However, Guru Sahib is the same as Vaheguru, so he does know Vaheguru’s limit. The JYOT that was inside of Guru Nanak/Guru Gobind Singh – Guru Granth Sahib jee is Vaheguru’s jyot. He is just stating that there are many more qualities of God which cannot be described due to our lowly mat.

In japji sahib it is mentioned at what time and what day did the world begin and guru ji says only God knows himself. There is a sakhi where a few singhs ask Guru Gobind Singh when did the world start and Guru ji also said only God knows this himself I do not know. No one knows or can explain God’s Nirgun qualities and secrets.

Now, Bhai Gurdas Jee in his Vaaran proves how imperfect Kabir, Nam Dev etc were before they met Guru Nanak – A Gursikh of Guru Nanak is perfect as he/she has no haumai so it completely humble, as he does not disclose his shaktia as the above bhagats have done and does not make him/her self known.

This is incorrect Guru ji also showed a lot of kautaks and showed his Shakti to break others egos and so did the bhagats. Doesn’t show they are imperfect.

You stated that Gurmukh means Bhramgyanee however, Bhai Gurdas Jee states here –

Satguru, according to Gurbani is Guru Nanak as Guru Nanak is Vaheguru himself. So, the only way to go into Saachkhand will be going through Vaheguru himself who took the roop of Guru Nanak. The above pauri states that the TRUE PANTH was created for Gurmukhs to follow. Similarly, Guru Gobind Singh Jee (Dasam Granth) states –

This is where our difference lies I believe Satguru means anyone who has got pooran gian and has become brahmgiani/God themselves. Yes, there is no doubt another panth was created and for Sikhs we should follow Guru Granth sahib ji.

Saadh is a sant, and it states the saints were shown the true way. So, someone from another faith can become a Gurmukh and Sant of Vishnu, but not of Vaheguru.

This does not make any sense. The bhagats like dhru and Raja Janak did not worship Vishnu this is made clear all over gurbani but you keep saying it is Vishnu. I know if you make a quick search in gurbani it says they meditated on God’s name. You can’t randomly interpret this as Vishnu!

This is where our understanding is different. Even though Gurbani mentions many different kirtam names of God, they are there to give us an understanding of SatNaam (Vaheguru). For instance, Gurbani calls Saachkhand BAIKUNTH, but the real name Saachkhand is only used once or twice whereas Baikunth is used many times -

ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਨਗਰੁ ਜਹਾ ਸੰਤ ਵਾਸਾ ॥

The city of heaven is where the Saints dwell.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਚਰਣ ਕਮਲ ਰਿਦ ਮਾਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਸਾ ॥੧॥

They enshrine the Lotus Feet of God within their hearts. ||1||

However, we know that Baikunth is Vishnu’s realm as Gurbani states there are many Baikunths, but we know there is only ONE Saachkhand, so Baikunth is referring to Vishnu’s realm here –

In the tuks above it mentions nothing about Vishnu!! This is absurd, the bhagats before were not vishnu’s (deity) followers. You are using your own interpretation to come up with this. Gurbani does not say this at all. Sachkhand is everywhere and baikunth sometimes can also refer to sackhand depending on veechar of shabad. But just randomly saying Vishnu’s realm is incorrect.

In the same way, Gurbani refers to the Gurmat Naam when using Har, Ram, Allah etc, but the real name, Vaheguru, has only been used once or twice too.

This makes no sense what’s so ever - all is real, gurbani is not there to trick us by using kirtam naams i.e. ram, allah etc.

These kirtam names come from Vishnu (Bisan) which Raja Janak used. The above shabad states that Vishnu suffers from the rog of Haumai, which means he is imperfect. Thus, his name is imperfect too, so how can an imperfect name make Raja Janak, Prahlaad, Dhroo, Ramanand, Bhagat Kabeer, Bhagat Nam dev etc perfect? Vaheguru Naam comes from Vaheguru himself who is without this rog of Haumai. Hence, the Naam is as Perfect as Vaheguru so it will make the reciter perfect too.

This slightly clearer but you are still incorrect because you are making a mistake of referring Vishnu as one of the deites, just like shivji etc. These deities are a part of maya like you stated. But in those time Vishnu was refered to God – not the deity – that’s where your misunderstanding is. The bhagats were worshipers of God not of Vishnu the deity lol (Do further research into the upanshids, shrutis and puranas you’ll see what I mean on the term around Vishnu. You are getting confused here but in Hinduism (according to granths) they refer to the supreme consciousness as Vishnu just like the nirgun version of waheguru. Just read up on it you are thinking of shiva as destroyer, brahma as creator, vishnu as persever these are maya qualities that Gurbani refers to. Not of the supreme soul known as Vishnu. There is only one God call him waheguru, ram, allah, vishnu (but not to be confused with the trimuriti of vishnu).

[Consciousness]

Kaal Jee we have completely different veechar from each other. It seems like it's pointless me debating with you as I am not going to change your views. So will not debate again plus I don't have time lol. Let's agree to disagree.

[chatanga]

very interesting. i have a few questions.

Not even the Bhagat's reached Saachkhand without Guru Sahib; they reached Karam Khand until Guru Sahib let them through into Saachkhand. Guru Nanak in the form of Guru Arjun Dev Jee blessed them to enter Saachkhand.

Bhaji, where did you read/hear this from?

@Kaal and people who think that no one reached Vaheguru or Sachkand before Guru Nanak is wrong, God sent many GurMukhs before he sent Guru Nanak Dev Jee who cemented the Daram of Such and left us with Dhan Guru Granth Shiab

I had Bhagat Dhru in mind when i read this. Did Bhagat Dhri reach sachkhand?

Of course, Raja Janak, Prahlaad etc are in Saachkhand now but not before Kalyug and without Satguru Nanak.

In the case of Prehlaad, Gurbani says that Waheguru protects his devotees(rehras sahib), but does this protection still leave them outside of Sachkhand?

I've always wondered about this concept of Devteh and their desire to be born as humans. Why do they not just recite Naam where ever they happen to be at this moment in time? Does it not count unless they're human?

In Japji Sahib, it says in pauri 27 i think, that the creation worships you Lord, also the Dev Devte worship you. Since they have the attributes of humans and more, why would human chola be necessary?

[Kaal]

Firstly, let me show you HOW HIGH GURU NANAK IS –

siqgur nwnk dyau hY prmysru soeI]

sathigur naanak dhaeo hai paramaesar soee||

Guru Nanak is the True Guru and is God Himself.

guru AMgdu guru AMg qy joqI joiq smoeI]

gur a(n)gadh gur a(n)g thae jothee joth samoee||

From the limb of this Guru was created Guru Angad and his flame merged in his (Guru Angad’s) flame.

Amrwpdu guru AMgdhuM huie jwxu jxoeI]

amaraapadh gur a(n)gadhahu hue jaan janoee||

From Guru Angad the omniscient Guru Amar Das emerged who was given the status of Guru.

guru AmrhuN gur rwmdws AMimRq rsu BoeI]

gur amarahu gur raamadhaas a(n)mrith ras bhoee||

From Amar Das came into being Guru Ram Das who was drinker of the nectar.

rwmdwshuN Arjn gurU guru sbd sQoeI]

raamadhaasahu arajan guroo gur sabadh sathhoee||

From Ram Das came Guru Arjan Dev, the companion of the Guru’s word.

hirgoivMd guru ArjnhuN guru goivMdu hoeI]

harigovi(n)dh gur arajanahu gur govi(n)dh hoee||

From Guru Arjan emerged Guru Hargobind, Guru and God is one.

gurmuiK suKPl iprm rsu siqsMg AloeI]

guramukh sukhafal piram ras sathisa(n)g aloee||

The Gurmukhs in the Holy Congregation came face to face of the pleasure fruit of loving delight.

guru goivMdhuN bwihrw dUjw nhI koeI ]20]38]

gur govi(n)dhahu baahiraa dhoojaa nehee koee ||20||38||

Nothing in the world is outside the Guru and God.(20)(38)

(Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Vaar)

Secondly, I am going to use Ajaamal as an example instead of Raja Janak because I doubt you know the actual name of God he recited. The name Ajaamal recited has been mentioned in Gurbani as Narayan. Gurbani states this about ajaamal –

ਅਜੈਮਲ ਕੀਓ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਹਿ ਥਾਨ ॥

and gave Ajaamal a place in heaven.

And –

ਅਜਾਮਲੁ ਗਨਿਕਾ ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਮੁਕਤ ਭਏ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨੋ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Remembering Him in meditation, even Ajaamal the robber and Ganikaa the prostitute were liberated; let your soul know this. ||1||Pause||

In literal meaning, BAIKUNTH IS VISHNU’S REALM. If you do not know then study Dasam Granth. Both shabad tuks above say that he obtained a place in heaven (not saachkhand) and received mukti by reciting Narayan. However, Guru Gobind Singh Jee in Dasam Granth devalues the name Narayan in a shabad which is calling certain practices wrong –

ਸੂਰਜ ਸਿਵਯਾ ਤਾਹਿ ਕੌਲ ਕੀ ਬਡਯਾ ਦੇਤ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮਾ ਸਿਵਯਾ ਕੌ ਕਵੀ ਕੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ॥੩॥੭੩॥

One who worships the sun, may be symbolized as lotus and one, who worships the moon may be recognized as water-lily (The lotus blooms on seeing the sun and the water-lily blossoms on seeing the moon). 3.73.

ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਕੱਛ ਮੱਛ ਤਿੰਦੂਆ ਕਹਤ ਸਭ ਕਉਲ ਨਾਭ ਕਉਲ ਜਿਹ ਤਾਲ ਮੈਂ ਰਹਤੁ ਹੈਂ ॥

If the Name of the Lord is Narayana (One whose house is in water), then Kachh (tortoise incarnation), Machh (fish incarnation) and Tandooaa (octopus) will be called Naryana and if the Name of the Lord is Kaul-Naabh (Navel-lotus), then the tank in which the lotus has grown, its name is also Kaul-Naabh.

Just as Ram, Har, Allah are Kirtam Names of God so is Narayan but here Guru Sahib says it’s lowly and meaningless to recite such a name whereas Gurbani states he obtained mukti from reciting it. It clearly means he only obtained temporary mukti in heaven (baikunth) but only went Saachkhand now in this yug through Guru Nanak. Why would Guru Sahib put a Kirtam Naam down when it can truly liberate us?

The shabad below is in praise of Guru Nanak by the Bhatts, in there it says that Raja Janak sings praises of Guru Nanak and so do millions of other beings. Why would they sing his praises?

ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਬਸਿਓ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਰਿਦੰਤਰਿ ॥

He mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoys sovereignty over both worlds; the Lord, beyond hate and revenge, is enshrined within His Heart.

ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਗਲ ਉਧਰੀ ਨਾਮਿ ਲੇ ਤਰਿਓ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ॥

The whole world is saved, and carried across, chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਸਨਕਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਜਨਕਾਦਿ ਜੁਗਹ ਲਗਿ ॥

Sanak and Janak and the others sing His Praises, age after age.

ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਕਯਥੁ ਭਲੌ ਜਗਿ ॥

Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

ਪਾਤਾਲ ਪੁਰੀ ਜੈਕਾਰ ਧੁਨਿ ਕਬਿ ਜਨ ਕਲ ਵਖਾਣਿਓ ॥

Even in the nether regions, His Victory is celebrated; so says KAL the poet.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਰਸਿਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਜੁ ਜੋਗੁ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ॥੬॥

You are blessed with the Nectar of the Lord's Name, O Guru Nanak; You have mastered Raja Yoga, and enjoy sovereignty over both worlds. ||6||

We can stop the debate now, as I don’t have time too lol

[chatanga]

In literal meaning, BAIKUNTH IS VISHNU’S REALM.

v interesting. what is the spiritual meaning of Baikunth?