Dhunda Does It Again Beadbi Of Sri Dasam Granth

[Only five]

You yourself dont know what to docoz you are too ignorant. You ppl are suggesting names of other scholars who should do something. When he was here in canada how many of you went to him to have a discussion and challenge him?

I'm glad you brought this up. What you wrote is the definition of an ignorant Sikh. I know the Sikhs that read your post see the irony here. True Dhunda came to Canada and anyone could have challenged him. But get off your high horse and ask yourself why no one did? Could there be a deeper reason than my brain can comprehend? See Sikhi is about humility and respecting authority. Sri Akal Takht Sahib has the right to challenge and summon Dhunda or anyone else to explain there actions. Gursikhs that follow Sikhi know this and don't step outside of these rules. They have humility in them and respect authority.

What Dhunda has done is a Panthic matter and can only be solved at a Panthic level. Canadian or any other nationality Sikhs have no authority to summon Dhunda Sahib and get an explanation from him and then challenge him.

I think you need to take the Dhunda gear off, the foam finger, big banners, his t-shirts, night pajamas, the fake gold medal with Dhunda picture in the middle........i know you make that neckalce spin..........you might even have his sneakers. Hes not going to make the season any more just like Darshan Ragi.

[JSinghnz]

I'm glad you brought this up. What you wrote is the definition of an ignorant Sikh. I know the Sikhs that read your post see the irony here. True Dhunda came to Canada and anyone could have challenged him. But get off your high horse and ask yourself why no one did? Could there be a deeper reason than my brain can comprehend? See Sikhi is about humility and respecting authority. Sri Akal Takht Sahib has the right to challenge and summon Dhunda or anyone else to explain there actions. Gursikhs that follow Sikhi know this and don't step outside of these rules. They have humility in them and respect authority.

What Dhunda has done is a Panthic matter and can only be solved at a Panthic level. Canadian or any other nationality Sikhs have no authority to summon Dhunda Sahib and get an explanation from him and then challenge him.

I think you need to take the Dhunda gear off, the foam finger, big banners, his t-shirts, night pajamas, the fake gold medal with Dhunda picture in the middle........i know you make that neckalce spin..........you might even have his sneakers. Hes not going to make the season any more just like Darshan Ragi.

So by your logic, any tom ,hick and harry can insult Sikhism and you most" humbly and respectfully" wait for Akal Takht to intervene and ask an explanation.

And where did you get that from that "See Sikhi is about humility and respecting authority."

Please enlighten us as to how you came to that conclusion?

[UKLondonSikh]

LF = look at this keerda...he needs to be dealt with in same manner as suraj mani

UK = Paji, can you explain to me where Dhunda Sahib is wrong in this video, without referencing other mistakes that Dhunda may have committed. So purely on the content of this clip, please enlighten me as someone in Professor Darshan Singh Ji's overall camp what anti-Sikhi point Dhunda has made in the clip.

UK = the way the Surajmani fool was dealt with was a mistake. It gave that Dera a fake "shaheed" and more publicity/donations whilst losing us three Sikhs who could have actively devoted their life in seva to the Panth and Sarbat dha Bhala instead of rotting the rest of their lives out in Indian jails. If it was on the spot as a natural reaction to Beadbi I wouldn't criticise them but if it was pre-planned I genuinely feel they did not weigh up the pro's and con's of their actions. That SurajMani clown was no Massa Ranghar.

Kaljugi = He is convincing for someone such as myself who hasn't got all the facts at hand. Good thing I went to Hemkunt Sahib as a kid. It was awesome! :biggrin2: I also visited Anandpur Sahib and all the other ithasik Gurughars, so it isn't an 'either/or' situation as he seems to be suggesting.

UK = Paji i don't believe Dhunda Sahib suggests it as an either/or situation. Every Sikh on the planet respects the sanctity of Sri Hemkunt Sahib as well as every Gurdwara where SGGS Ji Maharaj is present. That does not extrapolate that every Sikh has to accept the allegedly historical basis upon which Sri Hemkunt Sahib is based. I wholeheartedly agree with Dhunda Sahib that in terms of historical significance it would be nice if Sri Anandpur Sahib held a greater focus within our Panth as a Gurdwara to visit and learn from if one was faced with a choice between the two Gurdware. But as you correctly say all Sikhs are free to worship at whichever Gurdwara they choose + all Gurdware are equal in that respect.

Kaljugi = Anyone have any links to videos or articles which refute his arguments?

UK = Paji i don't see how the argument that Dhunda Sahib makes relating to us focussing on Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life alone and the significance of 1699 (as opposed to the Dusht Daman history that some choose to believe) can possibly be refuted.

LF = SIKHI starts with baani and ends with baani...i have no impathy for those who slander and doubt everything guru gobind singh ji is related with

UK = Dhunda Sahib doesn't do that in the clip as far as I'm aware and nor does Professor Darshan Singh. If someone doubts the historic authorship of certain sections of DG ... it's simply wrong to portray these Amritdhari GurSikhs as rejecting Dashmesh Pitha Maharaj. Those that don't accept 100% of DG feel that Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj are more slandered by their false association with certain limited sections of DG which does not resonate with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. The people who oppose Professor Darshan Singh's position tellingly elevate DG on de facto par with our only Guru - Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. To me that says a lot. However, respect to Sikhs who have faith in DG wholeheartedly. All I request Paji is that both sides of the opinion are understood to pray for the Panth's best interests at heart rather than simply being written off without any intellectual merit to refute their opinions whatsoever.

Rabh Rakha Paji and i hope you see that none of this is personal - i just said what I believe from the heart ...

I will always believe in 1 God, 1 Panth and 1 (central + unparalleled) Granth

... as well as the indisputable authentic elements of Gurbani within DG

[VanHelsingh]

Kaljugi = He is convincing for someone such as myself who hasn't got all the facts at hand. Good thing I went to Hemkunt Sahib as a kid. It was awesome! :biggrin2: I also visited Anandpur Sahib and all the other ithasik Gurughars, so it isn't an 'either/or' situation as he seems to be suggesting.

UK = Paji i don't believe Dhunda Sahib suggests it as an either/or situation. Every Sikh on the planet respects the sanctity of Sri Hemkunt Sahib as well as every Gurdwara where SGGS Ji Maharaj is present. That does not extrapolate that every Sikh has to accept the allegedly historical basis upon which Sri Hemkunt Sahib is based. I wholeheartedly agree with Dhunda Sahib that in terms of historical significance it would be nice if Sri Anandpur Sahib held a greater focus within our Panth as a Gurdwara to visit and learn from if one was faced with a choice between the two Gurdware. But as you correctly say all Sikhs are free to worship at whichever Gurdwara they choose + all Gurdware are equal in that respect.

Kaljugi = Anyone have any links to videos or articles which refute his arguments?

UK = Paji i don't see how the argument that Dhunda Sahib makes relating to us focussing on Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life alone and the significance of 1699 (as opposed to the Dusht Daman history that some choose to believe) can possibly be refuted.

Of course it suggests an either / or situation in the minds of most 'black and white' thinking Sikhs of which there are many in our faith. By paying respects at Sri Hemkunt Sahib you are clearly adhering to the Dusht Daman / "Mein Aaya Duroo Chal Ke" / Sri Dasam Granth part of Sikhi that people like Dhunda refute. Respecting SGGS Ji is a given, but the circumstances around which the site of Sri Hemkunt Sahib was discovered, and it's role in the Sikh faith is absolutely central to the debate between the pro and anti-Dasam Granth parties. It's one of the huge contributors to people undertaking the yatra to the site. I don't deny there's a certain premi or two who makes the journey solely to pay their respects to SGGS Ji.

The majority of people that do go to Sri Hemkunt Sahib travel there because of the historical and theological signifiance of the site. The prakash of SGGS Ji at the site is a given like every other Gurughar in India. If the presence of SGGS Ji is the only criteria to visit Gurughars then we'd all be happy in visiting the local Gurughar down the road instead of venturing back home to Panjab and journeying to the many ithaasik Gurughars to be found there.

To suggest there is no issue at all is idealistic and simplistic thinking, and again I think you're playing devil's advocate because if the criteria for upholding peace and calm in a Gurughar is simply due to the presence of SGGS Ji then we wouldn't have the committee fights that occur in the hazoori of SGGS Ji in various countries around the world.

Your second argument about not refuting Dhundas arguments contains, as usual, a half truth. Nobody is denying that Dasme Paathshah should be respected, but like it or not, when Dhunda gets into 'Dusht Daman territory' then his arguments should be refuted IF a person believes in that version of Sikh theology.

Personally speaking I don't know enough about the situation so I couldn't possibly comment. :biggrin2: I sound a bit like you, UKLondonSikh; killing people with kindness.

[mrsingh12]

Can you please answer some questions for me kindly?

1. Which Masters or Phd did Darshan Singh do to gain the title of professor?

2. Why did he make money from doing Kirtan of Sri Dasam Granth, the same granth he is now dissing

3. Name one respected academic/scholar that backs Darshan Singh's position on Sri Dasam Granth

4. Who gave authority to Ragi Darshan, tiger jatha, Thailand wala, ghagga etc. to openly question the authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth

5. Which position does Ragi Darshan hold, is it that all of SDG is false? some of it is false? Which is it

6. Why does he always do his poisonous parchar in parts of the world where Sikhs are asleep. Why doesn't he come to the stronghold areas to see if his parchar meets the truth test

7. Why did he not have any research carried out or debate this issue when he held the highest political seat as Jathedar of Sri Akaal Takht Sahib

Cheers m8

[JagjeetST]

Giani Thakur Singh Jee is a good parchaarak, listen to his Katha.

[N30S1NGH]

I don't care how many times i need to repeat this and sound like a broken record, but we need - sri akaal takth sahib to start sikh media in general, that will bring awareness of importance of sri akaal takth sahib and also sri dasam granth sahib ji. Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is integral part and life line for Sikh Faith. The only way i can think we can suppress anti dasam parchar is to have sri akaal takth sahib to start Sikh channel and broadcast it in punjab and abroad. Every time and time again, its proven how media is very powerful tool and plays a big role influencing public opinion (be it good or bad), we need to play smart and do effective parchar via media. Sikhs abroad will not listen to parchar from any organization unless its coming from Sri Akaal Takth Sahib. We need to pursue our jathedars to start media and bring public awareness on this issues and among many others issues..........you change public opinion, you change everything..all this pseudo scholars will shut up once there is public awareness regarding sri dasam granth sahib ji.

[UKLondonSikh]

Kaljugi = Of course it suggests an either / or situation in the minds of most 'black and white' thinking Sikhs of which there are many in our faith.

UK = I think that's where N30 Paji's "issues can be grey" concept becomes relavant. Paji i believe it can only be described as an either/or in terms of the two Gurdware mentioned if (for example) one of us was going from England to there and there was a limited time before a return flight to Heathrow ... and one had a choice of going to only one of the two Gurdware mentioned in the time left ... on the last day of their trip etc. And in that scenario, I would totally agree with Dhunda Sahib that despite arguably the greater locational beauty + serenity of Sri Hemkunt Sahib, imho Sri Anandpur Sahib holds the more historical resonance in my heart and a lot of other members of the wider non-forum Sangat in terms of its central importance to Sikhi. That being said, if an individual gains more in personal terms from Sri Hemkunt Sahib it's all good. As obviously the natural beauty of the location is simply breathtaking. Like I said "jithe vi Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj da parkash haii ... oh jagga sade li ik pavithar aasthan haii". So definitely no case of visit this one and don't visit the other ... just a matter of which Gurdware resonates more with every Sikh concerned ... and each to their own on that

Kaljugi = By paying respects at Sri Hemkunt Sahib you are clearly adhering to the Dusht Daman / "Mein Aaya Duroo Chal Ke" / Sri Dasam Granth part of Sikhi that people like Dhunda refute.

UK = That's why others feel Sri Anandpur Sahib is more central to what Sikhi is about. Having said that, if one is an Uttarakhand Sikh ... it makes sense for them to visit a Gurdwara closer to them. But yep why we are making yatra's somewhat akin to Hindu's and Muslims is something that a number of people aren't really comfortable with. I genuinely believe that one's local saanjha Gurdwara (if it's run sincerely by Panj Pyaaray without dodgy committees permitting meat+sharaab parties etc) is just as pavithar as the ithihaasik Gurdware. And rather than apne spending money just to do darshan of Sri Hemkunt Sahib, they can pray at their local Gurdwara in for example Delhi or Ludhiana and use the difference saved constructively - for the uplift of the community. But if people choose as several members of my family have to do darshan at Sri Hemkunt Sahib, then that's all good too. Each to their own.

Kaljugi = Respecting SGGS Ji is a given, but the circumstances around which the site of Sri Hemkunt Sahib was discovered, and it's role in the Sikh faith is absolutely central to the debate between the pro and anti-Dasam Granth parties. It's one of the huge contributors to people undertaking the yatra to the site.

UK = True Paji. I have utmost respect for the sharda of Granthi Sohan Singh Ji and the level of their sharda and also the yatri's sharda. But I definitely agree with Professor Darshan Singh Ji and Sarbjit Singh Dhunda's viewpoint on the historical authenticity of the whole Dusht Daman concept. I totally 100% believe that we should focus on Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj's life between the time that Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj nu shaheed kithah si and when SGGS Ji became our Guru. I think the rest, particularly the alleged Dusht Daman story is a dangerous distraction to throw Sikhs off from the true revolutionary changes Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj wanted in society and anti-Sikh forces felt that they would trap our Qaum into focussing on all this killing demons, doing pilgrimages (when we have local Gurdware) etc, etc when the 21st century application of Vasakhi 1699 was that we as human beings should never allow genocides worse than our own to take place in the last 20 years like for example Rwanda, DR Congo, South Sudan as three examples in which around 10 million died in the last 20 years.

Kaljugi = I don't deny there's a certain premi or two who makes the journey solely to pay their respects to SGGS Ji.

UK = Exactly Paji and for local Uttarakhand Sangat its great they have a local Gurdwara near to them. Any Gurdwara where SGGS Ji Maharaj is a blessed location, let's make no bones about that. However, the historical reasoning for the establishment of the Gurdwara is something that one can have personal doubts about whilst still having respect for the Gurdwara itself and without being anti-Sikh. For example, if some members of a committee have an argument about Gurdrware leadership ... as often sadly happens ... and then go off and set up a new Gurdwara ... every Sikh will still have total faith in SGGS Ji Maharaj at the new Gurdwara ... but is entitled to feel that perhaps the Gurdwara was not exactly set up along the common sense reasoning of establishing Maharaj where there is a need for the Sangat. Nevertheless, God works in wonderful ways as they say and I have total respect for the dedication of Granthi Sohan Singh Ji in the 1930's and what Major General Harkirat Singh Ji achieved in the 1960's. But if Sangat are going to do kar seva I really genuinely believe that tackling drugs, foeticide and alcohol in Punjab should take a bit more precedent over clearing snow in Uttarakhand leading to a Gurdwara which nobody uses for 6 months of the year.

Kaljugi = The majority of people that do go to Sri Hemkunt Sahib travel there because of the historical and theological signifiance of the site.

UK = True Paji. And that's half the problem. Gurdware shouldn't really be tourist destinations for the sake of it. And that's exactly what Dhunda Sahib was saying that the theological importance of Sri Anandpur Sahib is more central to Sikhi than Sri Hemkunt Sahib.

Kaljugi = The prakash of SGGS Ji at the site is a given like every other Gurughar in India.

UK = Yep

Kaljugi = If the presence of SGGS Ji is the only criteria to visit Gurughars then we'd all be happy in visiting the local Gurughar down the road

UK = I truly believe that Paji. Our local (saanjhay) Gurdware are every bit as important as the Gurdware in Punjab. This is a crucial difference between Sikhi and Hinduism+Islam. To them certain sites are more precious and you get more investment return for praying at certain locations. Guru Sahib made it quite clear to us that this was not the case for Sikhs.

Kaljugi = instead of venturing back home to Panjab and journeying to the many ithaasik Gurughars to be found there.

Kaljugi = To suggest there is no issue at all is idealistic and simplistic thinking, and again I think you're playing devil's advocate because if the criteria for upholding peace and calm in a Gurughar is simply due to the presence of SGGS Ji then we wouldn't have the committee fights that occur in the hazoori of SGGS Ji in various countries around the world.

UK = No there certainly is an issue Paji (but nothing to fight or kill over). One side believes in the Dusht Daman stories relavance, the other side chooses to focus on the birth of the Khalsa. However, speaking as one of the latter, I respect every bhaiin+bhai's haq to have faith in the Dusht Daman concept and literally believe in 100% of DG. That's fine. But to equate an Amritdhari GurSikh like Dhunda Sahib to Surajmani was very unfair imho.

Kaljugi = Your second argument about not refuting Dhundas arguments contains, as usual, a half truth. Nobody is denying that Dasme Paathshah should be respected, but like it or not, when Dhunda gets into 'Dusht Daman territory' then his arguments should be refuted IF a person believes in that version of Sikh theology.

UK = Yep Paji by all means. If people believe the Dusht Daman stuff is more important to Sikhi than the birth of the Khalsa then by all means let's debate the issue with pyaar and respect as members of the indivisible Sikh Panth. If people thinking clearing snow in far away Uttarakhand is more important than seva tackling the drugs, alcohol and foeticide challenges we face as a Qaum then fair enough everyone has the right to their own opinion + let's as a Qaum debate these issues with pyaar and satkaar.

Kaljugi = Personally speaking I don't know enough about the situation so I couldn't possibly comment. :biggrin2: I sound a bit like you, UKLondonSikh; killing people with kindness.

UK = Naah Paji i don't believe in kindness for people like Anders Breivik or James Holmes. Those people ought to be killed on the spot. Just like Guru Sahib dealt with the cheating masands who were stealing from Langar resources that kept the gareeb alive. But in the case of that Surajmani clown - the guy was clearly mentally ill - and I strongly believe 3 lives dedicated to Panth di Seva and Sarbat da Bhala could have achieved so much than living out the rest of their lives in Rajasthani jails.

[UKLondonSikh]

Can you please answer some questions for me kindly?

1. Which Masters or Phd did Darshan Singh do to gain the title of professor?

UK = He'd have to answer that Paji but you know how us Punjabi's are like - if we can write the 26 letters of the Roman alphabet ... we think we are entitled to add BA or MA as our qualification ... so I know what you're saying. Imho he's called that just out of respect.

2. Why did he make money from doing Kirtan of Sri Dasam Granth, the same granth he is now dissing

UK = There are parts of it that nobody disputes. Those that match the purity of the Gurbani in SGGS Ji Maharaj there's nothing wrong with doing kirtan of those parts. Other elements ... well people certainly believe that they were interjected in by the enemies of the Sikhs to weaken Sikhi and don't hold much resonance with the central message of SGGS Ji Maharaj.

3. Name one respected academic/scholar that backs Darshan Singh's position on Sri Dasam Granth

UK = I think there are quite a few if you look them up on the web. I can't say I'm too familiar with many myself. But ignoring them for a moment, apply your own reasoning to this in order to decide whether killing demons in a past life or being a descendant of Luv+Kush (+ thereby Ram Chander the Hindu Avatar) is important or whether the birth of the Khalsa Panth is more important?

4. Who gave authority to Ragi Darshan, tiger jatha, Thailand wala, ghagga etc. to openly question the authenticity of Sri Dasam Granth

UK = Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. We have one Guru. Anything in contradiction to Guru Sahib, each and every Sikh has the right to question anything that does not match with the Truth of SGGS Ji Maharaj. Again it is only parts of DG which are doubted.

5. Which position does Ragi Darshan hold, is it that all of SDG is false? some of it is false? Which is it

UK = Only parts of it. We don't need to be Einstein to figure out which bits are controversial.

6. Why does he always do his poisonous parchar in parts of the world where Sikhs are asleep. Why doesn't he come to the stronghold areas to see if his parchar meets the truth test

UK = To be honest given that an Amritdhari GurSikh like Dhunda Sahib was equated to Surajmani ... it's quite apparent that those who believe in joint parkash of DG as some kind of equal to SGGS Ji Maharaj are quite capable of probably making an attempt on Professor Darshan Singh's life ... over something which we should debate with pyaar and satkaar ... as both sides clearly have utmost prem for Dasme Patshah.

7. Why did he not have any research carried out or debate this issue when he held the highest political seat as Jathedar of Sri Akaal Takht Sahib

UK = That wasn't really the time to open up the debate given how badly the Qaum was under attack ... neither should we focus on this issue as a top-ten problem now either ... so I'm keen to hear any justifications and then end the discourse on it ... but things have got out of hand in terms of people starting to almost equate DG in its totality to the height of SGGS Ji Maharaj

Cheers m8

[UKLondonSikh]

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is integral part and life line for Sikh Faith.

I agree with you Paji and so does Professor Darshan Singh and Dhunda Sahib in as far as that relates to undisputed parts which resonate and match with the overall message of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

Rabh Rakha and bilcul fiqr na karo Paji your posts are never like a broken record.

Even when I totally disagree with you, I still respect your input massively :-)