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Singstah's contribution to this thread makes the most sense to me. I am no expert on this topic but I have also been led to believe that Sikhi is the only way to Sachkhand. As Kaljugi said, if a follower of an Abhrahamic religion, he or she would have to go against the very fundamental beliefs of his or her religion. For example, for a Muslim who has reached Sachkhand while alive, this would mean accepting that he or she would not have to wait until the Day of Judgement to be sent to either Paradise or Hell-fire. Islam also states that Muhammad is the final Prophet, so a Muslim who has reached Sachkhand would need to disagree with this. Though other religions can bring one closer to God, I believe that Sachkhand is only reached by those who are fully attuned with the truth as given to us by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Though through good karams one can surely get closer to God, but to reach Sachkhand one must be a Brahmgyani and true Brahmgyan is only available with the Grace of Guru Sahib.

Having said this I am no authority on this topic or on Gurmat.

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@ United - That's what I was thinking. To use the Islamic example, they totally reject the transmigration of the soul; they reckon it's a bit of a joke and start talking about coming back as lamp-posts, cars, etc (no kidding, I've heard a Muslim say this with total seriousness). So I'm wondering such a Muslim may be completely loyal to his own faith and adhere to Islam with the utmost sincerity and purpose, but is it possible to enter Sachkhand (the realm of truth) without stumbling upon the whole truth rather than vague humanist ideals? When I refer to the 'whole truth' I'm saying this from a Sikh perspective of course. I'm sure people of other denominations will disagree. :biggrin2: Also I'm not suggesting that a belief in the transmigration of the soul guarantees entry to Sachkhand as if that's the only criteria one must meet.

Most good human beings realise to varying extents that truthful living, respect for your fellow man, love, etc., are desirable qualities, and even atheists argue you don't need to believe in a higher power to possess the aforementioned qualities. So these qualities on their own can't be enough to guarantee meeting God?

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Generally speaking, vidya of studying different religion and appreciating unity within diversity (of all the dharams) have gone extinct from the mainstream panth. So naturally, Sikhs are honestly innocently- ignorant of other mystic traditions of other faiths.

There were reasons why Sri Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj had 52 poets in his darbar from all different faiths, presenting their experience with divine from their mystic traditions because they were all celebrated and cherished together and NO- they were not thrown in ball fire/burn the witch attitude by singhs around that time in insecurity and paranoia asked them to fully convert to Sikhi by guilt trips (sad reality in camps today).

Gurmat clearly is unique way from same old and same old crap coming from hindu pandits and muslim mullah bickering among themselves- my salvation provided in dharam is higher, my dharam prayer is parvan,mullah says my prayer is parvan.

Sri Guru Gobind Maharaj started sevapanthi order and nirmale order (Bhai Dya Singh Samparda/Bhai Dharam Singh Samparda, taksal nirmale upsamparda) to study other dharams and mystic traditions along with gurmat and do parchar of gurmat while keeping diversity and harmony- so together truth (Ikongkar) is celebrated,cherished and experienced in various rays of diversity.

Until to this day, in nirmale and sevapanthi orders of Gurmat, other dharams/traditions are taught and celebrated along with Gurmat(off course), because within diversity, one can truly appreciate Gurmat because Gurmat/Gurbani connects with every human consciouness, feeling and mystic traditions such as gnostic, sufism- rumi/bulleh shah etc, hindu spiritual orders.

Then came elitist superamist ideology who started super imposing its own view (Victorian protestant thought) on Gurmat and tried shoving Gurmat to tunnel (but maharaj parkash cannot be shoved in to tunnel), traditions are seperate story (another painful chapter), but whole theological definition of God(Vahiguroo) was changed from beautiful divine serene- sargun, shakta-shakti intertwined with nirgun chaitan- advait gurmat metaphysical concept to western/christian idea of God who is-'fearful angry','wrathful', 'who is confined to its adobe who gives naam jhapi to his followers upon arrival where he resides before inspecting his/her uniform' 'full of partiality'- accepting the passport/issuing visa to only those who have - kes/ki, kanga, kirpan, kachera, kara' along with all sarbloh- rest billions of jiv atma were demanded to go back in this earth take birth, follow this form otherwise all souls are naturally doomed in (birth and death cycle) until they take this form.

And God who is only and only confined to "naam shabad" not sargun, nirgun, naam shabad, gyan saroop-advait (Sargun Nirgun Nirankar Sun Samadhi Aaap), God who only cares about- 'Vahiguroo dhuni', sas grass naam dridh', so so much these elitist superamist try changing vahiguroo to vahguru - Gurmantar, so it matches with their robotic sound resosance- their version of shabad surat marg , they were staunchly against all other mantra (forget about outside mantra, but were staunchly against all the mantra found in gurbani itself!!!!), which provides profound expereince of divine such as- ikongkar, Ongkar, satnaam, ikongkar satgurparsad, Gobinde Mukande Udhare Aparaie Hariang Kariang Nirname Akame, Aad Gureh Nameh Jugad Gureh Nameh Satguru Nameh Sri Gurdev Nameh, these superamist refuse to matha taikh to sri guru granth sahib sargun saroop written in pad ched form (let alone saints lol) and refuse to take parsad just like pandits from fellow gursikh who has vahiguroo jot in him, called anyone who disagree with them- anti panthic, rss, congress, evil snatan, manmatiya, manmukh.

So yeah off course, according to these superamist eltist - only sikh is allowed in sachkhand, hell not even sikhs but only their tribal beleif- they don't even consider nirmale, sevapanthis, udasi sikhs, they all call them - kache, pillaie, dhillaie snantan hindus- hell if sri guru nanak dev ji nirankar gave them darshan with seli topi(one of relics at fort, kartarpur), they will probably knock maharaj topi off and put dummala with aad chand on instead of maharaj divine sargun darshan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So yeah i have every reason to be here present traditional views on sachkhand, after all traditional gurmat is de-marganalized/demonized and hijacked by eltist superamist. I refuse to sit here and listen to their "revisionist victorian protestant version of Sikhi".!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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@ United - That's what I was thinking. To use the Islamic example, they totally reject the transmigration of the soul; they reckon it's a bit of a joke and start talking about coming back as lamp-posts, cars, etc (no kidding, I've heard a Muslim say this with total seriousness). So I'm wondering such a Muslim may be completely loyal to his own faith and adhere to Islam with the utmost sincerity and purpose, but is it possible to enter Sachkhand (the realm of truth) without stumbling upon the whole truth rather than vague humanist ideals? When I refer to the 'whole truth' I'm saying this from a Sikh perspective of course. I'm sure people of other denominations will disagree. :biggrin2: Also I'm not suggesting that a belief in the transmigration of the soul guarantees entry to Sachkhand as if that's the only criteria one must meet.

Most good human beings realise to varying extents that truthful living, respect for your fellow man, love, etc., are desirable qualities, and even atheists argue you don't need to believe in a higher power to possess the aforementioned qualities. So these qualities on their own can't be enough to guarantee meeting God?

Totally understand you when it comes to Muslims not understanding that concept. Though I accept that different religions have different experiences of God, I fail to understand how it is possible for a Muslim (just an example) who has reached Sachkhand to even remain a Muslim. As per my understanding, he would have rejected the basic belief of Islam that 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Prophet', the Qur'an as the final revelation onto humanity, and that there will be a day of judgement. According to Gurbani souls are judged by Dharam Rai, on a continuous basis as opposed to the Islamic view that bodies would be resurrected and judged on the Day of Judgement. Gurbani is clearly from the abode of God himself. The two views are clearly in conflict with each other and it would be impossible for a Muslim (who has reached Sachkhand) to remain a Muslim if he realises the truth as given to us by Gurbani.

However, it appears it is different if an adherent of a faith other than Sikhi through his or her karams starts to become closer to God. There is no doubt that people following other religions do very good deeds and practice great devotion to God. Perhaps this leads them to be born into Sikh households later in succeeding births or find Gursikhi later in their lives? Though this might be a separate topic. Maybe it is the case that as people progress in their spirituality as followers of other religions they realise that it may be unnecessary to maintain certain rituals in their respective religions. It seems like this was the case during the time when our Guru Sahibaan were in human body e.g. Bhai Lehna before meeting Guru Nanak Dev Ji. According to Gurbani, is it not true that no one attained God (Sachkhand, where Nirankaar resides) without Satguru Ji? Though one can come from any religious background, I fail to understand how one can offer utmost faith and devotion to Satguru Ji yet still be a follower of another religion.

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Guru Granth Sahib Ji includes bani of 15 Bhagats and they were from different religion. Sheikh Farid Ji, Bhagat Kabeer Ji were muslims. Bhagat Naamdev Ji, Bhagat Ramanand Ji were Hindu but it doesnt mean they havent met God. Bhagat naamdev ji was a hindu but he codemned the practises followed by brahmans. Many of Guru Ji followers were from other religion. Saai Mia Meer Ji, who laid the foundation of Harmandir Sahib was a muslim, Bhai Nand Lal Ji was Hindu, though he became Sikh afterwards and there are many other examples. It doesnt matter from which religion you are you can be one with God. But why we Sikhs are lucky because our Guru Ji left us with pure Brahmgyan in the roop of Guru Granth Sahib Ji rather than other religions' scriptures which mostly include karam kaands, but if someone being from those religions rise above these karamkaands and understand the concept of seeing one supreme lord in everyone its possible meet God. Bhagat Naamdev Ji saw God even in a dog. We all are sons of one supreme lord. As Guru ji says " Hindu Turk Koi Raafzi Imaam Saafi, Maanas Ki Jaat Sabhai Ekai Pehchanbo." " Jimin Jaman Ke Bikhai Samast Ek Jot Hai", "Aval Allah Noor Upaya, Kudrat Ke Sab Bande"," Koi Bolai Raam Raam Koi Khudaye". Guru Ji taught us equality but we still divide people on basis of caste, religion. Guru Ji said unless we see one lord in everyone, we are not going to be one with the lord.

Je Kuch Galat bol geya hova ta chhota veer samaj ke Bhul Chuk Layi Muaafi De Dena Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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Thank you Singhstah for presenting Gurbani and not presenting your opinion. So here is a question for everyone.

Who is the True Guru? They guy who makes a lot of noise on this forum, but doesn't present no Gurbani. This is your opportunity to present facts of who is the True Guru. Give us names; for example vedas, bible, Jesus or whoever you think is the True Guru and then we can present what Gurbani says and what Sants say.

I would prefer that every other member let this one noisy maker give us the list before we continue with this topic. Give this guy a chance, just maybe he might have a point.

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Totally understand you when it comes to Muslims not understanding that concept. Though I accept that different religions have different experiences of God, I fail to understand how it is possible for a Muslim (just an example) who has reached Sachkhand to even remain a Muslim. As per my understanding, he would have rejected the basic belief of Islam that 'There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is His Prophet', the Qur'an as the final revelation onto humanity, and that there will be a day of judgement. According to Gurbani souls are judged by Dharam Rai, on a continuous basis as opposed to the Islamic view that bodies would be resurrected and judged on the Day of Judgement. Gurbani is clearly from the abode of God himself. The two views are clearly in conflict with each other and it would be impossible for a Muslim (who has reached Sachkhand) to remain a Muslim if he realises the truth as given to us by Gurbani.

However, it appears it is different if an adherent of a faith other than Sikhi through his or her karams starts to become closer to God. There is no doubt that people following other religions do very good deeds and practice great devotion to God. Perhaps this leads them to be born into Sikh households later in succeeding births or find Gursikhi later in their lives? Though this might be a separate topic. Maybe it is the case that as people progress in their spirituality as followers of other religions they realise that it may be unnecessary to maintain certain rituals in their respective religions. It seems like this was the case during the time when our Guru Sahibaan were in human body e.g. Bhai Lehna before meeting Guru Nanak Dev Ji. According to Gurbani, is it not true that no one attained God (Sachkhand, where Nirankaar resides) without Satguru Ji? Though one can come from any religious background, I fail to understand how one can offer utmost faith and devotion to Satguru Ji yet still be a follower of another religion.

Great post.

Leading on from your post, I'm left wondering what the purpose of the Abrahamic religions are? Why are they afforded such status and gravity on earth when - from a Sikh perspective - their concepts fall short of even trying to identify the deep issues? Have they reached such heights and amassed so many followers because of the truth inherent in their respective messages (thus you could argue they are "blessed" by God) OR have they managed to exist and perpetuate their philosophies for such a long time only because of the efforts of their most determined followers?

Also, this is not a "my religion is greater than your religion" wand-waving from my perspective. I'm just trying to understand why certain things are the way they are. If that means sometimes certain unsettling questions have to be asked then I guess it must happen.

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Great post.

Leading on from your post, I'm left wondering what the purpose of the Abrahamic religions are? Why are they afforded such status and gravity on earth when - from a Sikh perspective - their concepts fall short of even trying to identify the deep issues? Have they reached such heights and amassed so many followers because of the truth inherent in their respective messages (thus you could argue they are "blessed" by God) OR have they managed to exist and perpetuate their philosophies for such a long time only because of the efforts of their most determined followers?

UK = You hit the nail on the head Paji. The more false/dogged a philosophy is and the more money the followers of a faith have to propagate it the more it will grow ... we've seen how brutally European Colonial Empires and Muslim Empires imposed their lies across the world through the power of the sword and musket and that's the only reason Chrsitianity and Islam are by far the biggest religions with combined over 150 times more followers than Sikhi. Even in India, Sikhs are only 1.8%. Whilst there are ten times as many Muslims and Christians in India which I find deeply disappointing given the respective truth of each marg. Unlike Christianity and Islam which both condone Slavery - Sikhi steadfastly opposes the very concept of a human being in bondage to another. But greater education may allow Sikhi to somewhat catch up in India. It's critical we realise that a critical mass of numbers are crucial to help Sikhs contribute more for Sarbat da Bhala worldwide.

Guru Granth Sahib Ji includes bani of 15 Bhagats and they were from different religion. Sheikh Farid Ji, Bhagat Kabeer Ji were muslims.

UK = Dhan Dhan Kabir Ji Maharaj was NOT Muslim my brother but his parents were born Muslims. However, Kabir Ji Maharaj utterly rejected Islam and to an extent was the most vociferous in ridiculing it. After all the Quran condones Slavery + the inferiority of non-muslims whilst elevating a "man" that was a slaveowner and paedophile to the status of a Prophet (and a supreme+final one at that). And of course the 1st Sikh - Bhai Mardana Ji - was born to Muslim parents, so we as Sikhs have nothing against any good person born to Muslim parents that subsequently abandons the Prophet Muhammad after analysing the Prophet's bad actions during his lifetime.

this is a post carrying on from a previous post in gupt section

I was always under the impression that sikhi pescribed to the opinion that if your a good sikh christian muslim then you will get to god(sachkand)

I do not believe that sachkand is full of only sikhs; or only accepted people 500 years ago

Opinions welcome this is a place to debate

UK = Totally agree with you kullyKhalsa Ji. What differentiates bewteen human beings is not our religion that we state we belong to but solely the actions we do in our lives, according to the individual set of circumstances we face. In that "examination test" of our lives, Sikhs like me might fail whereas another gareeb Muslim from a slum may pass etc, etc. Having said that, following the Amritdhari marg should (theoretically if adhered to truthfully) ensure an expedited route to coming closer to ParmAathma. In Sachkhand people don't follow religions ... "Tuhin Tu" ... so all worldly souls who were born into different faiths are sure to be represented ... but more importantly when merged with ParmAathma there are hardly likely to be differences within one merged Great Soul that is ParmAathma.

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harvindersingh makes a great post above about teh fact bhagats included in bani have been of different religions. also think the post above by uklondonsikh is worth delving into regarding each persons set of circumstances...i.e the chance of a third world poor african gettin to sachkand when they have never even heard of sikhi???

As for the discussion of kaljugi and united i find it is hard to understood the abrahamic religions one because they have more history and due to that are open to my bias (re- time and attitude and social changes), 2 as a religion grows it becomes richer or individuals do u can see it in sikhi where ppl try to change bits of bani and maryada. Finally we are all learners on this earth hard for us to judge other religions when we are all still not fully able to understand our own

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