Doubt on getting Naam Jugti - Reru Sahib Mahapursh Updesh

[Jonny101]

I understand your point but I can try and clarify if 'ROM ROM' simran is a metaphor or NOT !

Firstly, lets remember and just think back to Guru Nanak Ji philosophy of trying to keep things simple without too much complication so that even the very low common man in Punjab can understand Gurbani. This stems from the fact that the hindus enforcement was that only the Brahmins were educated enough to understand their scriptures, but this is clearly not the case here, as Guruji wanted to be well away from this.

I'm sure that you will agree that 'rom rom' is referring to not just every hair on the body but every single cell that exists ?

Now, remembering that the common pendu is probably not aware what a 'cell' is, it is simpler to keep it at hair.

Since, we all know that our skin is covered with hair all over, some large some small except on the soles of feet and hands.

When we describe this simran as 'waheguru' vibrating on every single hair of the body- then strictly speaking it is a SEMI- Metaphor !

Semi, because it is not only the hair but every single cell within the body as well that vibrates with 'waheguru'.

So, my conclusion is that yes it is a metaphor and yes it is literal as well, because literally speaking a person will feel every single body hair vibrating with simran !

You are both correct, therefore I'm sure we can agree that it is a semi-metaphor and not a strict one !

Agree ???

Brother, I respect you. You have the nimrata of a true Sikh. Mr Johal should learn a thing or two from you. In the end, we need to accept that we have a difference of opinion. For some of us Gurbani is full of metaphor, while for some others Gurbani is all real which uses some metaphor here and there. I can understand what you are saying, but reading books by Gursikhs who have reached higher states of spirituality and their interpretation of those same Tukhs one comes to the understanding that sometimes Gurbani is not only talking about metaphor but also higher states of avastha where a Naam Abhyasee's every rom will will vibrating the sound of naam, for such Gurmukhs they begin to literally see past this materialistic world(maya) and see Vaheguru literally emanating in every thing and every where(ghat ghat).

As much as I respect Prof Sahib Singh Jee, but for a lot of Sikhs he is not the begin all or end all of Gurbani interpretation. Other Sikh scholars such as Giani Harbans Singh Jee, Bhai Randhir Singh Jee, Bhai Vir Singh Jee, Kartar Singh Daka are all scholars who have also interpreted Gurbani according to the grammar rules yet they have not dismissed Sikh spirituality as being one big metaphor after another.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

1. Prof Sahib Singh Jee is a respected scholar of the Panth. I also like to read his writings for reference every now or then. But even he has admitted in his autobiography that he has never had a spiritual experience. For him naam is a fruit which he has never tasted but has tried to describe through his scholarly estimation. So I would not use Prof Sahib Singh Jee as a reference on the subject of Naam and spirituality. For that I would rather use Sant Ishar Singh Jee, Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale, Bhai Vir Singh Jee, Bhai Randhir Singh Jee, Bhai Raghbir Singh Bir Jee the last three are not even Sants for your info.

2. Who said only do naam in the morning and not the rest of the day? As per the Maryadha a Sikh is suppose to wake up in the morning to do Naam Simran and Nitnem and throughout the day spend doing naam simran or read bani while working. Doing Simran this way, naam simran becomes a habit.

3. Totally irrelevant to this thread. For you everything written in SGGSJ is metaphorical. You have turned Gurbani into one big joke. Next you will say even Guru and God is metaphorical and not real, and you think we will believe you?

4. It is those who say Gurbani is all metaphorical and not real that need to understand what sat sat kar jano means.

5. One should not point a finger at who did or did not do contribution to Panthic struggles because then other's can also point finger at you and ask you the same question.

6. Good luck.

Baba ji in audio clips says that only naam abhiaasy can tell the jugti of Naam Abhiass what can I take from this

Guru Sahib never wrote the way of naam abhiaas in Guru Granth Sahib.

It seems he never read baani or never take it seriously, no doubt if you find him right then I am wrong.

Point 3 of your needs to be answered.

Anything written in poetic verses will have metaphor

ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਉ ॥

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰੋਮਿ ਰੋਮਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥

This is an example and meaning is also given in the post above.

If you go by ਰੋਮਿ ਰੋਮਿ then ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ should be taken literally.

I would really like to hear a katha from you where someone's ਨਿਮਖ said God's name.

Its lack of your understanding not mine.

Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru and we take Gurbani very respectively and when u ought to say something, you need to check what u are saying.

Every jugti and way of meditation has been described in Guru Granth Sahib.

If this kind of prachar is panthic contribution well its not required.

If I need to look at some one I will and always will look to my Guru. I have faith in my Guru.

Guru Sahibaan are only personalities which I look upon and I trust those people who shows utmost respect to baani.

[N30S1NGH]

Baba ji in audio clips says that only naam abhiaasy can tell the jugti of Naam Abhiass what can I take from this

Guru Sahib never wrote the way of naam abhiaas in Guru Granth Sahib.

It seems he never read baani or never take it seriously, no doubt if you find him right then I am wrong

You are taking it wrong way bro-

According to traditional gurmat, there are three types of students as such- intial updesh in Gurbani is addressed to three types of students where gurbani updesh is given(via hakumnama, mahapursh-sadh sangat etc) accordingly to based on student state of mind, based on student depth. There are ways to finding your state of mind/clear doubts one has- one of most recommended way- one is being in sadh sangat (soceity of saints) which gurbani emphasizes over and over again because one may not see their road blocks but in sadh sangat- soceity of saints those road blocks- doubts/sansa could be cleared and 2nd it gives one reality check of ego all the time being in sadh sangat as mere mortals can really fall a trap of ego.

Gurbani is agam agad bodh, its fully connected with our human consciousness, it talks to individual in many ways- some time outright slap via hakumnama, sometime through ishara/very subtle way via hakumnama/mahapursh katha/updesh..so at the end, its the student duty to decipher updesh from gurbani given to them blunt or sutble..sadh sangat or in sangat of mahapursh is also recommended as per gurbani, so they can further guide the student or alternatively, student can also honestly self reflect and grade themselves.

Bhai Gurdas Ji talks about:

Vaar 7 - Pauri 3 (Tin di ginati-gurmukh)

Brahama Bisanu Mahesu trai bk ved gun gian langhae.

Bhut bhavikhahu varatamanu adi madhi jini anti sidhae.

Man bach karam ikatr kari jamman maran jivan jini de.

Adhi biadhi upddhi sadhi surag mirat pdtal nivae.

Utamu madham nich sadhi balak joban biradhi jinae.

Ira pingula sukhamand trikuti langhi tribeni nhae.

Gurmukhi ika mani iku dhiae.

Also Sant Maharaj Baba Isher Singh Ji Rara sahib wale along with damdami taksal jathedars also talks about three types of student:

source: Ishvar Amalok Lal (personal dairy of sant isher singh ji rara sahib and also see-japji sahib audio katha by gyani thakur singh ji)

1. Kanishtt Bhajneek (ਕਨਿਸ਼ਟ ਭਜਨੀਕ) - Those who cannot concentrate their minds during paath or meditation are called Kanishtt (Low-level). Still, they are much better than those who do not take any initative at all.

2. Maddham Bhajneek (ਮੱਧਮ ਭਜਨੀਕ) - They try to control their minds during worship. Sometimes they are successful at it.

3. Uttam Bhajneek (ਉੱਤਮ ਭਜਨੀਕ) - Their minds settles down well during meditation/worship. They are able to find peace.

In layman terms consider kanisth student as - beginner, madham jaigaso- intermediate and utam jaigaso- advanced.

As there are three types of students, and there are various updesh in gurbani addressed to three types of students, when it comes naam simran, there are also similar classification. Please see-attached

[Jonny101]

Baba ji in audio clips says that only naam abhiaasy can tell the jugti of Naam Abhiass what can I take from this

Guru Sahib never wrote the way of naam abhiaas in Guru Granth Sahib.

It seems he never read baani or never take it seriously, no doubt if you find him right then I am wrong.

Point 3 of your needs to be answered.

Anything written in poetic verses will have metaphor

ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਉ ॥

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰੋਮਿ ਰੋਮਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥

This is an example and meaning is also given in the post above.

If you go by ਰੋਮਿ ਰੋਮਿ then ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ should be taken literally.

This is also an advanced avastha when a Gurmukh will reach such a state called ajapa jaap. At that time Naam Simran happens automatically at every moment(ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ) and permeates all over the body(ਰੋਮਿ ਰੋਮਿ). Again I don't expect you to believe any of this.

[luckysingh99]

I was quite involved in the music industry before I went deeper into sikhi.

Now, I also paid interest to sufi poetry used in songs and to the likes of shiv kumar batalvi..etc...etc..

From what I knew back then, the term ''rom rom'' was widely used by such poets like Bulleh shah.

I can't think of any right now, but there were lines like ''rom rom vich wasdi sohni surat teri''..etc... meaning ''In the rom rom resides the beautiful image of your beauty'' - remember these are romantic in the sense of talking about your lover and/or lover God by soul bride.(ambigous and 2 meanings!)

So, this term was widely used in poetic expression, which is also no doubt why Guruji applied it.

It is an expression and it does touvh the literal aspects, since a person who experiences this find it very hard to describe.

There is also a very deep,sensual and lovinf feeling that eminates from the heart.

Both of you(Johnny and Gurdeep) are good sikhs that are going in the right direction.

This is what is important and we should TRY and learn from each other whilst on our sacred paths.

[GPS]

Can mr johl tell us definition of a Gurmukh. First tell us who is a Gurmukh.

This rom, rom dhiana is applicable to a Gurmukh only and not all and sundry.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬਾਣੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥

गुरमुखि बाणी ब्रहमु है सबदि मिलावा होइ ॥

Gurmukẖ baṇī barahm hai sabaḏ milāvā ho▫e.

The Word of the Gurmukh is God Himself. Through the Shabad, we merge in Him.

ang 39

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

This is also an advanced avastha when a Gurmukh will reach such a state called ajapa jaap. At that time Naam Simran happens automatically at every moment(ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ) and permeates all over the body(ਰੋਮਿ ਰੋਮਿ). Again I don't expect you to believe any of this.

ਨਿਮਖ also means ਪਲਕ. Now you should translate that line with ਪਲਕ.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

One cann't do Naam simran sovat( while sleeping), saas giras( with every breath and morsel) is he or she has not done naam abhias by repeating Gurmanatra for a long time and has been granted blessings of Guru ji.

It is easy to talk about it but difficult to explain when probed. This is the essence of sikh teachings. Guru panth advises us about jugti.

Guru Granth talks about jugti

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਭੇਟਿਐ ਪੂਰੀ ਹੋਵੈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ॥

Nānak saṯgur bẖeti▫ai pūrī hovai jugaṯ.

O Nanak, meeting the True Guru, one comes to know the Perfect Way.

ਹਸੰਦਿਆ ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ ਵਿਚੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਮੁਕਤਿ ॥੨॥

Hasanḏi▫ā kẖelanḏi▫ā painanḏi▫ā kẖāvanḏi▫ā vicẖe hovai mukaṯ. ||2||

While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. ||2|| 522

Gurmukh is who simply believe in Guru.

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

Aasaa Mehalaa 5 ||

ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਮੈ ਦੂਜਾ ਤੂੰ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਮਾਹੀ ॥

Thujh Bin Avar Naahee Mai Dhoojaa Thoon Maerae Man Maahee ||

Without You, there is no other for me; You alone are in my mind.

ਤੂੰ ਸਾਜਨੁ ਸੰਗੀ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਕਾਹੇ ਜੀਅ ਡਰਾਹੀ ॥੧॥

Thoon Saajan Sangee Prabh Maeraa Kaahae Jeea Ddaraahee ||1||

You are my Friend and Companion, God; why should my soul be afraid? ||1||

ਤੁਮਰੀ ਓਟ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਆਸਾ ॥

Thumaree Outt Thumaaree Aasaa ||

You are my support, You are my hope.

ਬੈਠਤ ਊਠਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਜਾਗਤ ਵਿਸਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਸ ਗਿਰਾਸਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Baithath Oothath Sovath Jaagath Visar Naahee Thoon Saas Giraasaa ||1|| Rehaao ||

While sitting down or standing up, while sleeping or waking, with every breath and morsel of food, I never forget You. ||1||Pause||

ਰਾਖੁ ਰਾਖੁ ਸਰਣਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਗਨਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਵਿਕਰਾਲਾ ॥

Raakh Raakh Saran Prabh Apanee Agan Saagar Vikaraalaa ||

Protect me, please protect me, O God; I have come to Your Sanctuary; the ocean of fire is so horrible.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕੇ ਸੁਖਦਾਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਮ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਬਾਲ ਗੁਪਾਲਾ ॥੨॥੩੦॥

Naanak Kae Sukhadhaathae Sathigur Ham Thumarae Baal Gupaalaa ||2||30||

The True Guru is the Giver of peace to Nanak; I am Your child, O Lord of the World. ||2||30|| Ang 378

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

You are taking it wrong way bro-

Bhai Gurdas Ji talks about:

Vaar 7 - Pauri 3 (Tin di ginati-gurmukh)

Brahama Bisanu Mahesu trai bk ved gun gian langhae.

Bhut bhavikhahu varatamanu adi madhi jini anti sidhae.

Man bach karam ikatr kari jamman maran jivan jini de.

Adhi biadhi upddhi sadhi surag mirat pdtal nivae.

Utamu madham nich sadhi balak joban biradhi jinae.

Ira pingula sukhamand trikuti langhi tribeni nhae.

Gurmukhi ika mani iku dhiae.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਤ੍ਰ੍ਰੈ ਲੋਕ ਵੇਦ ਗੁਣ ਗਿਆਨ ਲੰਘਾਏ।

Brahamaa Bisanu Mahaysu Trai Lok Vayd Goun Giaan Laghaaay.

The gurmukhs have gone ahead of the three worlds, three gunas (rajas, sattva and tamas) and Brahma Visnu Mahesa.

ਭੂਤ ਭਵਿਖਹੁ ਵਰਤਮਾਨ ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਜਿਣਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਸਿਧਾਏ।

Bhoot Bhavikhahu Varatamaanu Aadi Madhi Jini Anti Sidhaaay.

They know the mystery of the beginning, the middle, the end, of past, present and future.

ਮਨ ਬਚ ਕਰਮ ਇਕੱਤ੍ਰ੍ਰ ਕਰਿ ਜੰਮਣ ਮਰਣ ਜੀਵਣ ਜਿਣਿ ਆਏ।

Man Bach Karam Ikatr Kari Janman Maran Jeevan Jini Aaay.

They keep together in one line their mind, speech and action and conquer birth, life and death.

ਆਧਿ ਬਿਆਧਿ ਉਪਾਧਿ ਸਾਧਿ ਸੁਰਗਮਿਰਤ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਨਿਵਾਏ।

Aadhi Biaadhi Oupaadhi Saadhi Surag Mirat Paataal Nivaaay.

Subjugating all the maladies, they have humbled this world, heaven and the nether world.

ਉਤਮ ਮਧਮ ਨੀਚ ਸਾਧਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਜੋਬਨ ਬਿਰਧਿ ਜਿਣਾਏ।

Outamu Madham Neech Saadhi Baalak Joban Biradhi Jinaaay.

Winning the top, middle and the lowest positions they have conquered the childhood, youth and the old age.

ਇੜਾ ਪਿੰਗੁਲਾ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ ਲੰਘਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਬੇਣੀ ਨ੍ਹਾਏ।

Irhaa Pingulaa Soukhamanaa Trikoutee Laghi Tribainee Nhaaay.

Crossing trikuti, the conjunction of three naris – ira, pingala, susumna in between the eyebrows, they have bathed in the triveni, the pilgrimage centre at the confluence of

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਇਕੁ ਮਨ ਇਕ ਧਿਆਏ ॥੩॥

Guramoukhi Iku Mani Iku Dhiaaay ॥3॥

With concentrated mind, gurmukhs adore only one Lord.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

Only Guru and no one else.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੬ ॥

Sireeraag Mehalaa 5 Ghar 6 ||

ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਏਕੁ ਓਹੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥

Karan Kaaran Eaek Ouhee Jin Keeaa Aakaar ||

The One Lord is the Doer, the Cause of causes, who has created the creation.

ਤਿਸਹਿ ਧਿਆਵਹੁ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੧॥

Thisehi Dhhiaavahu Man Maerae Sarab Ko Aadhhaar ||1||

Meditate on the One, O my mind, who is the Support of all. ||1||

ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਚਰਨ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਧਿਆਇ ॥

Gur Kae Charan Man Mehi Dhhiaae ||

Meditate within your mind on the Guru's Feet.

ਛੋਡਿ ਸਗਲ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਸਾਚਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Shhodd Sagal Siaanapaa Saach Sabadh Liv Laae ||1|| Rehaao ||

Give up all your clever mental tricks, and lovingly attune yourself to the True Word of the Shabad. ||1||Pause||

ਦੁਖੁ ਕਲੇਸੁ ਨ ਭਉ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਹੋਇ ॥

Dhukh Kalaes N Bho Biaapai Gur Manthra Hiradhai Hoe ||

Suffering, agony and fear do not cling to one whose heart is filled with the GurMantra.

ਕੋਟਿ ਜਤਨਾ ਕਰਿ ਰਹੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਤਰਿਓ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥

Kott Jathanaa Kar Rehae Gur Bin Thariou N Koe ||2||

Trying millions of things, people have grown weary, but without the Guru, none have been saved. ||2||

ਦੇਖਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਸਾਧਾਰੈ ਪਾਪ ਸਗਲੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥

Dhaekh Dharasan Man Saadhhaarai Paap Sagalae Jaahi ||

Gazing upon the Blessed Vision of the Guru's Darshan, the mind is comforted and all sins depart.

ਹਉ ਤਿਨ ਕੈ ਬਲਿਹਾਰਣੈ ਜਿ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਪੈਰੀ ਪਾਹਿ ॥੩॥

Ho Thin Kai Balihaaranai J Gur Kee Pairee Paahi ||3||

I am a sacrifice to those who fall at the Feet of the Guru. ||3||

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਾਚੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ॥

Saadhhasangath Man Vasai Saach Har Kaa Naao ||

In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, the True Name of the Lord comes to dwell in the mind.

ਸੇ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨਾ ਮਨਿ ਇਹੁ ਭਾਉ ॥੪॥੨੪॥੯੪॥

Sae Vaddabhaagee Naanakaa Jinaa Man Eihu Bhaao ||4||24||94||

Very fortunate are those, O Nanak, whose minds are filled with this love. ||4||24||94||