DJ Bobby Friction refuses to play songs with any mention of caste.

[Sherdil]

Your personal example doesn't detract from the fact that a lot of ignorant haughtiness has emanated from jat quarters for a good while now and has had extremely negative consequences for wider Sikh society. On top of this is the alcoholic, barn dancing jamboree culture which has spread to nonjat Sikhs due to majority influence, wherever jats picked that up from.

It's harder and harder for the caste loving jat to act pompous because, as someone alluded to earlier, they've got serious drug and economic problems which makes grinning, self congratulatory prancing around about your caste and ability to drink copious amounts of alcohol look seriously demented. Maybe certain people need to take it as a hint from Waheguru to try and humble themselves a bit? In Jaap Sahib Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave Waheguru the epithet 'Garb Gunjan' meaning 'destroyer of false pride'. There are important lessons in that.

I agree wholeheartedly that Jattism has gotten out of control. I said this before on this thread. However, don't you think some of the haughtiness is a reaction to urban Sikhs looking down on the rural Sikhs of Punjab? There are non-Jatt Sikhs in from Delhi who choose to speak Hindi over Punjabi because they think it is more eloquent. They look at Punjabi Bhangra culture as some sort of drunken debauchery, which is precisely how it has been described by some on this forum. This Jatt vs Bhappa issue came up after partition. When both sides looked at their new neighbors with suspicion.

You can't blame Jatts if non-Jatts have started using drugs. Nobody put a gun to their head and forced them to become druggies. If they do drugs, it's because they are weak minded. It doesn't matter if they are Jatt or something else.

That leads me to the issue of blaming Jatts for everything that is wrong in Punjabi society. For example, people say that Jatts pushed the Dalits out of Sikhi. I will admit that we had a big role in doing that, but the rest of you have your hands dirty too. I don't see you guys inviting Dalits into your Gurdwaras. You guys have built gurdwaras to cater to your own castes. If you would join together, then you would outnumber Jatts by a lot. But, none of you wants to take on any responsibility. Just keep blaming Jatts.

There was a video posted on this forum earlier, of a Gurdwara in Delhi called Ramgharia Sabha, or something like that. This gurdwara rented it's darbar to Hindus to do pooja worship or something. This is a repeating theme in UK, where we hear about Ramgharia and Labana gurdwaras renting out party halls. What if we started saying that you guys are sell-outs who only care about counting your money? A big over-generalization wouldn't you say?

[N30S1NGH]

Good riddance and good bye to caste distinction rubbish ----> Welcome to interjatha/samparda's cultish tribalism:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/69848-individual-cultish-perception-and-the-khalsa-panth/

same old same old eh ?..just a different name eh?

[Sherdil]

Haha you think i am a bhappa? For your info, I was born into a jatt family. But i am proud to say that I lost that caste distinction when with Guru jees apaar kirpa I took amrit and joined the Khalsa brotherhood.

The reason I mentioned the kanjar connection to bhangra is when some jatts here began to claim that bhangra was some how an authentic part of the old jatt culture which of course is a myth. Sadly this transition from the old jatt culture to the modern semi kanjar culture happaned around the time of the partition. Things still were not this bad until the sikh immigrants in the uk took kanjar culture to a whole new level to the modern bhangra culture we see today that is falsely being called authentic jat culture.

Ask your grand parents and they will also confirm what i say. Jatt women during olden times had some sharam. They would never shamelessly dance infront of men like the modern jattis do on the dance floor. During olden times it was kanjris who did this and that too for money. But the modern jatti has lost all sharam and she will do this for free! And beghairat are the men who allow their wife, sister and daughter to dance around like this in front of other men.

If this is the state of jatt culture now, I shudder think how low jatt culture will go in the next 50 years.

Idk what you are, lol. People can be whatever they want on they internet. If your telling the truth, then you are calling your own sister a Kanjri. That's for you to decide. I don't know her.

Sigh...I didn't want to have to say this. I have asked my grandparents about this whole caste issue. I told them, I wouldn't mind marrying a girl from a different caste, as long as she is a Sikh. They told me that I haven't seen what life was like in the village, in the old days. They said that Jatt folk used to keep mistris (ramgharias and lubanas) as hired help. Just like the Kanjars you mentioned before. Whenever they needed something fixed in their home, they would tell the mistri to go do it. They said that is was common for the help to get beatings if they messed up their work.

[dalsingh101]

I said this before on this thread. However, don't you think some of the haughtiness is a reaction to urban Sikhs looking down on the rural Sikhs of Punjab?

Not at all. I think the average pindu jat is a very gullible person will start following anyone who praises him, which the English used to full effect. This clever techniques of European manipulation (divide and conquer) is what played a massive part in jats acting like complete to55ers towards nonjat Sikhs, with illusions of grandeur pumped into their heads by whites, to keep them generally subdued. Note how this egocentric posturing by jats is in stark contradiction to the Sikh thesis, which hordes of jats ignore at will, because they have this weird 'need' to feel better than other Panjabis around them. Anything based on falsehood will fall, and we are seeing this now.

You can't blame Jatts if non-Jatts have started using drugs. Nobody put a gun to their head and forced them to become druggies. If they do drugs, it's because they are weak minded. It doesn't matter if they are Jatt or something else.

Study some social psychology. Majority effect within communities is a well documented and studied area. Some of us older heads can remember times when Panjabi Sikh weddings weren't the drinking jamborees they so often are now. It was jats who liked to talk like this kind of stuff was some 'jat nishaan' and again, majority influence spread that gundh to the rest of the Sikhs who NEVER used to do such things.

That leads me to the issue of blaming Jatts for everything that is wrong in Punjabi society. For example, people say that Jatts pushed the Dalits out of Sikhi. I will admit that we had a big role in doing that, but the rest of you have your hands dirty too. I don't see you guys inviting Dalits into your Gurdwaras. You guys have built gurdwaras to cater to your own castes. If you would join together, then you would outnumber Jatts by a lot. But, none of you wants to take on any responsibility. Just keep blaming Jatts.

jats monopolise Panjabi and Sikh politics (Akali Dal, SGPC etc.), it's only right that they get hooked up for their failings. If a country was going down the toilet, it is only natural (and right) to blame those sitting on the pilot seat.

There was a video posted on this forum earlier, of a Gurdwara in Delhi called Ramgharia Sabha, or something like that. This gurdwara rented it's darbar to Hindus to do pooja worship or something. This is a repeating theme in UK, where we hear about Ramgharia and Labana gurdwaras renting out party halls. What if we started saying that you guys are sell-outs who only care about counting your money? A big over-generalization wouldn't you say?

Again, I've opened my mind to this. I remember way back, when Sikhs used to hire church halls for Sikh events because we weren't established then. I'm glad those Xtians didn't have the ignorant, exclusive attitude that many apnay exhibit today.

If you want to build some pathetic jat fortress to hide behind, knock yourself out, I promise you it wont last long against the winds of progressive change.

[Sherdil]

Not at all. I think the average pindu jat is a very gullible person will start following anyone who praises him, which the English used to full effect. This clever techniques of European manipulation (divide and conquer) is what played a massive part in jats acting like complete to55ers towards nonjat Sikhs, with illusions of grandeur pumped into their heads by whites, to keep them generally subdued. Note how this egocentric posturing by jats is in stark contradiction to the Sikh thesis, which hordes of jats ignore at will, because they have this weird 'need' to feel better than other Panjabis around them. Anything based on falsehood will fall, and we are seeing this now.

Study some social psychology. Majority effect within communities is a well documented and studied area. Some of us older heads can remember times when Panjabi Sikh weddings weren't the drinking jamborees they so often are now. It was jats who liked to talk like this kind of stuff was some 'jat nishaan' and again, majority influence spread that gundh to the rest of the Sikhs who NEVER used to do such things.

jats monopolise Panjabi and Sikh politics (Akali Dal, SGPC etc.), it's only right that they get hooked up for their failings. If a country was going down the toilet, it is only natural (and right) to blame those sitting on the pilot seat.

Again, I've opened my mind to this. I remember way back, when Sikhs used to hire church halls for Sikh events because we weren't established then. I'm glad those Xtians didn't have the ignorant, exclusive attitude that many apnay exhibit today.

If you want to build some pathetic jat fortress to hide behind, knock yourself out, I promise you it wont last long against the winds of progressive change.

Are you serious???

It was a Jatt who was sitting on the throne of Khalsa Raj. Us dumb gullible Jatts were able to accomplish what you guys couldn't.

Dogras weren't Jatts, and they sold us out to the British. Selling-out seems to be a repeating theme.

Master Tara Singh wasn't a Jatt. The most foolish and gullible leader in Sikh history, who chose to join Punjab with India after Nehru charmed him.

Non-Jatts are the biggest Congress Party cheleh. They kiss the behinds of the same party that killed their brothers and raped their sisters. Sarna brothers and Dikshit are buddies. They have convinced Congress party to intervene in Sikh affairs and alter the Delhi Sikh Gurdwara Act. You see, selling-out is a repeating theme.

[dalsingh101]

It was a Jatt who was sitting on the throne of Khalsa Raj. Us dumb gullible Jatts were able to accomplish what you guys couldn't.

He built on foundations set by all sorts of Sikhs. Plus he wasn't a narrow minded supremacist like your average jat pindu likes to be now.

Plus you need to stop harking on about the past and look at what is going on around you TODAY!!!!!

[Sherdil]

He built on foundations set by all sorts of Sikhs. Plus he wasn't a narrow minded supremacist like your average jat pindu likes to be now. Plus you need to stop harking on about the past and look at what is going on around you TODAY!!!!!

Now you don't want to talk about the past? You had no problem bringing it up before.

I have lost count of how many times I have said that I agree that Jattism has gotten out of control. However, that is no excuse malign the whole community and put the blame squarely on us. Everyone is equally culpable, as all groups practice casteism. It's a sad fact.

Going back to the topic of this thread, I agree with Bobby Friction's ban on caste-based songs. It has gotten out of hand and it is not acceptable anymore.

[dalsingh101]

Sigh...I didn't want to have to say this. I have asked my grandparents about this whole caste issue. I told them, I wouldn't mind marrying a girl from a different caste, as long as she is a Sikh. They told me that I haven't seen what life was like in the village, in the old days. They said that Jatt folk used to keep mistris (ramgharias and lubanas) as hired help. Just like the Kanjars you mentioned before. Whenever they needed something fixed in their home, they would tell the mistri to go do it. They said that is was common for the help to get beatings if they messed up their work.

If true, it probably goes some way into explaining why jats are generally loathed so much?

[dalsingh101]

However, that is no excuse malign the whole community and put the blame squarely on us. Everyone is equally culpable, as all groups practice casteism. It's a sad fact.

Nah. Go talk to the so-called 'low caste' people who are leaving the faith and the others complaining about caste. They're all talking about jats and their behaviour. Face up to it.

[MrDoaba]

I will admit a lot of Jatts do think they are better then others simply for being Jatt, not all though. Both sides are to blame. The whole caste thing is getting more and more out of control. Even among young Amritdharis caste cancer is still rampant. Mix that with "interjatha/samparda's cultish tribalism"...it makes you think what will be left of our Panth??

WLS made a brilliant point when he said...

Chamars start singing silly songs about how great it is being a chamar ? Yes of course ban it. Because it's silly and has no cultural significance.

Tarkhans, for no reason other than 'caste' start singing silly songs about how great it is being a tarkhan ? Yes of course ban it. Because it's silly and has no cultural significance

Chamaars and Tarkhans have made their own songs out of hankaar. They have misunderstood the meaning of Jatt in the old songs which refer to Punjabi folk tales. But having said that, some of it is down to todays Jatts being hankaari themselves and boasting about being Jatt without knowing the first thing about it.

Yes Jatts are not perfect nor are any of the other castes. But, historically Jatts have been the most pakke Sikhs. Sadly this is no longer the case, no one can claim to be a pakka Sikh. No caste, no jathebandi...no one.

We all need to change our attitudes.

Why are we arguing over caste?? Lets try to envision what Dashmesh Pita did when they created the Khalsa.