~~ Individual cultish perception and the khalsa panth ~~

[N30S1NGH]

First thing first, I am not against any jatha or samparda nor i m against any sant mahapursh/bhai sahib/prof/dr/gursikhs/senior gurmukhs who put panth at first. But with that being said, i am vehemently against any idea which promotes cultish tendacies/individual cultish perception (be it from youths, grown ups) which super imposes itself on the panth. I am sure humkire sahib ji can contribute on to this thread as this something i can agree with him totally.

Personally speaking, I used to be quite cultish 5-6 years ago, i used to box the khalsa panth into a tunnel, made my own little idea/world of khalsa panth in my specific case was nanaksar and anything outside of nanaksar didn't pay any attention for eg- anything outside of teaching of baba nand singh ji maharaj regarding gurbani. My yard stick to measure an authenticity of gurbani regarding sri dasam granth and sri sarbloh granth was soley based on to see if baba nand singh maharaj quoted it and if he did - accept it fully while didn't pay attention to other compositions. There wasn't or isn't anything wrong with nanaksar or baba nand singh ji maharaj or samparda or jatha itself but everything was wrong with "my cultish perception" which boxed khalsa panth into tunnel vision seeing khalsa panth via nanaksar/googles of nanaksar.

Then I looked into amish/mormon/ jevoh witness type of followers and studied them, as jevoh witness came to our house few times to do their parchar and everytime they would come- i would be quite pissed at them but reality sanked in- i was shocked that despite of jevoh witness different belief system than us. Jevoh Witness followers and I have very similar things in common which was "cultish perception". But as they say, even oppositions can give people reality checks and i am living example of it..!!, things start changing slowly where i opened up my horizon slightly- smell more beauty of diversity flowers around me. Now thanks to maharaj, i consider myself quite lucky my cultish perception was destroyed by maharaj himself and i could see panth at times from 360 degree angle specially when i am contemplating/self reflecting on things.

Surely jatha and samparda's in the panth- be it akj, taksal, nirmale, udasi, sevapanthis, nihangs, soho rd- niskham seva jatha, 3ho dodra are all essential and its there to help to motivate someone in khalsa panth, they are all needed. We cannot do rejection or favor one over another but we need to be extremely careful when jatha/samparda's becomes driving force in one's individual sikhi rather than gurbani- kirtan, katha, patt, simran/meditation and seva.

I too also need to be careful in parchar regarding jatha and samparda so that i don't villify their followers as reverse villify them is just as bad (another extreme) but i do think perception is everything- one could be still in jatha or taksal is still be quite open minded in diversity and vice versa.

Nothing needs to changed in the jatha, samparda or maryada or anything in khalsa panth but only individual's perception of looking at things, perceiving things.

I will end by very shocking quote i got from facebook which lead me honestly start this topic. Again not villifying any specific jatha or samparda's- cultish taksalis are just as bad where bhramgyani baba thakur singh ji barsi program overshadow inadvertently sahibzadais' shahedi divas instead of striking a right balance, cultish mentality is human problem cannot be tied to specific group or jatha.

Anyway here is quote from an individual which lead me to open this new topic:

http://www.facebook.com/hargurus

The first step is for all jatha singhs to accept all the bani from which bhai sahib has quoted from. This includes chandi di war, shastar naam mala, bachtir natak, akal ustat, tuks from avtar banis (ram avtar, krishan avtar etc) are also quoted. One bani which there seems that bhai sahib hasn't quoted from is charitpakyan (unless someone shows evidence otherwise - book and page number), so it is ok to have a discussion on any dasam granth bani that bhai sahib hasn't quoted from. However Any jatha singh who goes against any dasam bani which bhai sahib has quoted will always be a disloyal fake jatha singh.

Ironically enough, i had a same perception as this individual 5-6 years ago but by maharaj kirpa things have changed for me, this is classic example what we need to refrain from, i don't want people to make same mistakes like i did wasted years of my life..!!

[Guest]

Your exactly spot on!!

When people say stuff like "Sant baba Thakur singh maharaj told me to take Amrit" or "bhai sahib bhai randhir singh is the person who brought me to amrit"etc my question is what about guru gobind singh ji maharaj?People don't follow what the true guru is asking but when a sant or mahapursh says something let's do it.I respect sants and mahapurkhs but people are making the sants and mahapurkhs like gurus.Luckly my father guided me and told me to respect sants but always follow the true guru.

Please bless me I don't know anything and if I said something wrong please forgive me.

[Sherdil]

Right on.

This topic was needed.

People look to these middle-men to digest gurbani for them, but then it becomes hard for followers to differentiate gurbani from the opinion of the middle-man.

There should be no middle-men between you and your guru.

[singhgsingh]

Very good topic. I've been meaning to write something similar to this for a while now. How the Panth has become followers of what my Sant said rather than what my Guru said. Hopefully I can write it soon.

We need to respect all Gursikhs, Sants, Mahapurkhs, Bhai Sahibs like Sant Jarnail Singh, Sant Gurbachan Singh, Baba Nand Singh, Baba Isher Singh and Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh etc. but also realize that although they all got to high levels in Sikhi they weren`t 100% perfect, only Guru Sahib is 100% perfect.

Hopefully I`ll expand on this soon.

[dalsingh101]

i am vehemently against any idea which promotes cultish tendacies/individual cultish perception (be it from youths, grown ups) which super imposing itself on the panth.

I too am vehemently against such tendencies. I've stated before, one of the most profound things that weaned me away from this was an interaction with dasmesh pita's Akaal Ustat, which uncompromisingly tears apart any notion of Waheguru or dharam being somehow 'owned' or solely belonging to any particular group/faith.

I come from a Singh Sabha background myself in terms of literary influences and interpretations of faith and used to be quite narrow minded in terms of interpretations outside of this. I have to say, freeing my mind from such judgmental shackles is one of the greatest things to happen to me. You simply can't see reality when you've blinkered yourself along the lines of ANY particular group. That just leads to the most gross, unsophisticated petty mindedness which looks even worse coming from someone aligning themselves to a religious identity. All groups have their positives and negatives, we can learn from all. The tendency to try and 'monopolise' the truth is pathetic, but sadly seems to be a very common human instinct across religions. In terms of our spiritual beliefs, we should aim higher than being members of some exclusive/elitist groups who are sole custodians of sat. That's most often a stumbling at the first hurdle where people have turned their endeavours at dharam into some ego fueling mechanism.

[Singh559]

I too am vehemently against such tendencies. I've stated before, one of the most profound things that weaned me away from this was an interaction with dasmesh pita's Akaal Ustat, which uncompromisingly tears apart any notion of Waheguru or dharam being somehow 'owned' or solely belonging to any particular group/faith.

I come from a Singh Sabha background myself in terms of literary influences and interpretations of faith and used to be quite narrow minded in terms of interpretations outside of this. I have to say, freeing my mind from such judgmental shackles is one of the greatest things to happen to me. You simply can't see reality when you've blinkered yourself along the lines of ANY particular group. That just leads to the most gross, unsophisticated petty mindedness which looks even worse coming from someone aligning themselves to a religious identity. All groups have their positives and negatives, we can learn from all. The tendency to try and 'monopolise' the truth is pathetic, but sadly seems to be a very common human instinct across religions. In terms of our spiritual beliefs, we should aim higher than being members of some exclusive/elitist groups who are sole custodians of sat. That's most often a stumbling at the first hurdle where people have turned their endeavours at dharam into some ego fueling mechanism.

Great post.

With that said for some reason it's much easier for people to abuse this truth about Sikhi and go too far left and promote manmat/use that logic to justify their own shortcomings.

I think the best thing to do is to keep Sikhi personal and focus on our own jeevans and be inspired by people who practice Sikhi and have higher jeevan than ourselves. When we begin to preach stuff that even we don't practice it simply becomes empty dogma.

On one side of the extreme spectrum you have people who say only Sikhs who have taken Amrit can go to Sachkhand and it's reserved only for Sikhs and the other side of the extreme are people who say that anyone can go to Sachkhand you just have to do some good deeds and don't need bhagti and don't need SatGuru Maharaj.

The answer isn't black and white like people try to point it out to be, each person has their own voyage and the ultimate truth for a Sikh is that we have a Guru and through Gurprasad and Simran we can merge back into Waheguru.

This Gurbani comes to mind:

Bgqw kI cwl inrwlI ]

bhuguthaa kee chaal niraalee ||

The lifestyle of the devotees is unique and distinct.

cwlw inrwlI Bgqwh kyrI ibKm mwrig clxw ]

chaalaa niraalee bhuguthaah kaeree bikhum maarag chulunaa ||

The devotees' lifestyle is unique and distinct; they follow the most

difficult path.

lbu loBu AhMkwru qij iqRsnw bhuqu nwhI bolxw ]

lub lobh ahu(n)kaar thaj thrisunaa buhuth naahee bolunaa ||

They renounce greed, avarice, egotism and desire; they do not talk

too much.

KMinAhu iqKI vwlhu inkI eyqu mwrig jwxw ]

khu(n)niahu thikhee vaaluhu nikee eaeth maarag jaanaa ||

The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than

a hair.

gur prswdI ijnI Awpu qijAw hir vwsnw smwxI ]

gur purusaadhee jinee aap thajiaa har vaasunaa sumaanee ||

By Guru's Grace, they shed their selfishness and conceit; their hopes

are merged in the Lord.

khY nwnku cwl Bgqw jughu jugu inrwlI ]14]

kehai naanuk chaal bhuguthaa juguhu jug niraalee ||14||

Says Nanak, the lifestyle of the devotees, in each and every age, is

unique and distinct

[Only five]

First the original poster was attacking AKJ and now this op is attacking Taksal. Now we know what to expect in 2013 from this poster. Obviously this person has not sat down with Sant baba Thakur Singh ji Maharaj and is just on a hating rampage. Baba ji only attached Sikhs to Satguru and Satguru's rehat.

If anything this member is angry at the comments i so called made toward Sant Baba Nand Singh ji on a different thread. Hes a very clever poster, but thats all he has, I really hope Guru Sahib blesses this person with some nirmat and bit of santokh so he doesn't go crazy thinking everyone is after him. First AKJ was after him now Taksal is after him........paranoid much.

If this poster has an issue with Baba ji, then sit down with Taksal Singhs and they can handle him. He can't sit down peacfully himself and then this poster wants to distrub others.

[GyanParbodh]

I'm pretty sure the Gurus would have wanted his Sikhs to use the same critical thinking faculty that they had used.

[N30S1NGH]

As i mentioned earlier, this post is not attack against bhramgyanis mahapursh be it - sant/bhai sahib/prof nor its a attack against any jatha or samparda but everything to do with any idea which promotes cultish tendacies/individual cultish perception. Again this is not against any jatha or samparda in particular. All jatha's/samparda's be it be it akj, taksal, nirmale, rara sahib, harkhowale, hoti mardan, udasi, sevapanthis, nihangs, soho rd- niskham seva jatha, 3ho dodra (now did i miss anyone- if i did include them to please when you read my post here) regardless of jatha/samparda all have people with cultish mindset..you know why? It's a human thing..thats why. I don't think there is any place for cultish mindset or perception in Gurmat..you know why? Because cultish perception over shadow full/clear Gurmat view as i can speak personally five years ago please re-read my above experience !!

I don't need to further clarify my stance, my original post speak for itself.. guru maharaj knows deep inside each one of us so guru maharaj himself knows the point of my post and my respect towards sant/mahapursh from all jatha's and samparda's - my previous posts speak for itself..i don't need to convince anyone...just take whatever you will from my post and leave or ignore the rest..no hard feelings to anyone..!!

[VanHelsingh]

I'm pretty sure the Gurus would have wanted his Sikhs to use the same critical thinking faculty that they had used.

That's the conclusion I've reached. We don't have to be geniuses to appreciate how ahead of their time the Gurus were in terms of their thinking and general outlook. Yet what annoys me is how stealth revisionists - even if they don't know they're doing it - try to dumb down everything about Sikhi for the typical Panjabi so it can be digested and absorbed on the most basic level. If this keeps happening the depth and nuance to be found in Sikhi and its ways will be lost to the ages.

Mainstream Sikhi SHOULD be a bit difficult to get your head around; it should take some effort, some reflection, a bit of nouse to scratch the surface. It should not be limited to a collection of soundbites and a gaggle of visual adornments trotted out at select times of the year. Sikhi should disuade the chancers who hide behind Gursikhi garb to fool and deceive others, or the youngsters who don't understand the shakti and reverence behind Amrit but decide to become a Gursikh to increase their religious rep, and belong to something exclusive, yet with no conscious desire for self-improvement once the major step has been taken.

Sikhi should be a path willingly tread like those 5 Singhs decided to embark upon many years ago at Anandpur: Live or die, give your head or not give your head. It should be a transformative, life-altering experience. It shouldn't be a buzz that lasts a couple of months and then simmers down allowing normal service to be resumed (internally at least).

Sikhi is about following hukam, keeping rehat, but it's also more than that. It should be about compassion, loyalty, honesty, empathy, strength... great qualities any human being desires be part of their repertoire as a functioning member of society and the human race at large.