North Carolina Gurdwara refuses an anand karaj

[13Mirch]

We have to find the thin line between what is and what is not... than enforce it. For all we know there might be an alternative or we might have to modernise our perspective by letting a court ceremony occur and than if they are willing to become Sikhs an Anand Karaj. Look at it this way people have lost all respect for the ceremony and see it as "fashion." Have to teach the world its uniqueness and importance. Rather than being blunt and saying "shove off" we have to explain why they literally need to shove off.

And another thing rather than paying attention to Dera Ballan we need to cement our position with the other individuals who believe in the other Bhagats.

[UKLondonSikh]

Jonny = According to the rehit maryadha the Anand Karaj ceremony is to be performed if both bride and groom are Sikh. I have seen many interfaith marriages between and Sikh and non Sikh and were allowed Anandkaraj, but I have yet to see one of those couples who practice Sikhi. In fact neither do their children even claim to be Sikh. So this assertion that we should bend or lax the rules in order to win new converts is not baring the positive results. If fact it has resulted in giving the false impression to our youth(especially our girls) that marriage outside of the Sikh faith is okay and sanctioned in Sikhi since they see Babas, kirtanis performing Anand Karaj ceremony for these inter religious couples.

UK = Jonny Paji i understand and respect why you the hold the viewpoint you do. You do so because you want to see the Panth in Chardi Kallah rather than as a declining force. However, I want to respectfully put the opposite viewpoint to you for exactly the same reason ... kay Panth Chardi Kallah vich hovay.

UK = The first question Jonny Paji is ... should we take the Guru Granth Sahib Ji definition of a Sikh (jay'rah vi Guru Granth Sahib dhay a'geh matha tek'dhaii) - whosoever bows before Maharaj or the version defined in 1945 when the Nehru+Congress+RSS aim was to limit the definition of "Sikh" to as small a population as possible.

UK = Your observation is that in the case of mixed marriages you believe it is always Sikhi that gets dropped. My strong observation is that actually the opposite occurs - particularly so with spouses from Dharmic faiths. Logically if any child in this world is presented with Sikhi and any other faith out there as a 50/50 open choice I am 100% confident that the fundamental Truth of Sikhi shines through. So if statistics were shown to you that confirmed that actually the Panth has enlarged over time as a very result of the marriages you now oppose, would you change your opinion? I do agree with you that we need to be extra careful about grooms from aggressively conversionary Abrahamic faiths - however, those crooks ought to be easily weeded out by simply asking them to disavow Slavery and Slaveowners which the Torah, Bible and Quran all actively support. The children from such marriages will claim to be Sikh depending on how welcoming we as a Panth make them feel. If one's parents are not allowed to seek Maharaj's blessing at a Gurdwara for their marriage that will result in a near 100% exodus of the children of such so-called mixed marriages away from Sikhi.

UK = Like Gurdeep Paji said, we cannot restrict Maharaj away from the Sangat for fear of the message it will send to certain girls. The certain girls in question who you wish to control will marry who they want anyway. It goes without saying that Sikhi is the only faith that grants 100% equality to males and females ... so it puzzles me, as much as it does you, as to why somebody would see better qualities in an erstwhile non-Sikhi-practising spouse (which is something that can change due to the marriage with the correct pyaar waalah parchaar). But nevertheless that reality exists so we have to be practical about addressing it. Year on year there will be an increase in so-called mixed marriages. You know that, I know that, we all know that. The question is do we alienate an ever increasing percentage of people away from Sikhi or do we use this demographic reality as a way to adapt and positively grow the Panth's numbers for Sarbat dha Bhalla. This issue is crucial because it's vital to the future of Sikhi in the Diaspora in particular. In our overseas strongholds of UK+Canada we number a mere 0.9%. We don't even hit 1% of the population. It's 100% inevitable that so-called mixed marriages can only increase in such circumstances. So the question is whether it's better to engage with people so that may link themselves and their children with Sikhi or guarantee that they cut all connection to Sikhi forever?

Sevadar = DasGuruka Ji, We have a situation at our local Gurdwara where a Grand daughter of hardcore Nakali Nirankaris wants to marry a Hindhu boy at the Gurdwara.The girls family first said they would marry at their Nakali Nirankari Bhawan however the boy said that he would only marry if it is at the Gurdwara ???

Sevadar = Ok, so the Girls Family are majority Nakali Nirankari's who will disrespect maharaj purposfully which will result in trouble as we will not stand for that.

The boy is not a Sikh. If he wanted maharaj's blessing why hasn't he even done the minimum of changing his name to Singh ????

UK = Sevadar Paji thussi Bedford da haal dekho ... bakhre bakhre Gurdware kitheh pay nay ... and now if the grand-daughter of one of those fooled by Indira's pet Gurbachana wants to get married in a Gurdwara is that not a good sign of someone returning to the true fold? If the groom wishes to get married in a Gurdwara - as opposed to a Bhawan - bowing down before Maharaj that shows that he is not a Hindu like his parents or his name may indicate. By the way I wholeheartedly agree with Luton Gurdwara's suggested code of conduct whereby Singh and Kaur would be the names at point of marriage - and this is something that we would do well to extend to help wipe out gotra use in the UK at least.

Jonny = 1. In the UK they suggested that the person wanting to embrace Sikhi should atleast become a Sikh as per the Sikh rehit maryadha which states one who believes in Vaheguru, 10 Gurus and does not owe allegiance or follows any other religion.

Jonny = 2. A person born into a Sikh family but is not amritdhari currently. There can and should be an Anand karaj performed for them because he will still owe allegiance to the Sikh faith. His children will still identify themselves as Sikhs.

Jonny = Originally I used to think it's okay, but then I noticed that Sikhi has no place in their lives even years after the marriage. Their children almost always grow up as non Sikhs. The result of these inter religious marriages through the Anand Karaj ceremony in Gurdwaras has also had the disturbing trend of confusing our girls many of whom think it is perfectly okay as far as Sikhi is concerned to marry out of the faith.

UK = Paji I strongly believe that via your exclusionary approach that for every single female that you might compel into marrying within the faith another twenty will cut their links with the faith altogether. The end result is a demographic weakening of the Panth. The other suggestion accepts that mixed marriages are going to be an ever increasing reality and works on a proactive approach to engage and link the couple with Sikhi and the Panth as much as possible. If we had adopted your approach 200 years ago then we would still number today not much above the 5% in Punjab as we were at the start of the 19th century. Instead by 1947 we comprised 13% of Punjabi's and as result of the Partitions we now number a majority of the population in Majha and Malwa (and approximately 1 in 6 of the historic Punjab populations from Pakistani Punjab, East Punjab, Haryana and Himachal).

For sake of girls thinking we cannot deny any one coming to Gurdwara for marriage.

UK = 100% agreed Gurdeep Paji

Jonny = Rather I would argue that we are giving a green light to Sikh youth to leave Sikhi(through inter faith marriages) by encouraging these inter faith marriages to occur in a Gurdwara.

UK = Paji try to ignore the Nehru+RSS influenced 1945 definition of a Sikh which sought to limit the Sikh Panth's population by definition. Look at the Gurmat definition of an ordinary Sikh from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and focus your thoughts on the children of such marriages, given the inevitable reality that one day this century such marriages will be in the majority - rather than the minority. One method will ensure that 100% of the children will discard any connection with Sikhi. The other way means we can move out of being defined as an ethnic faith and truly be observed as a Universal faith that exists for Sarbat dha Bhalla. Our Panth's collective deficiency in terms of parchaar and explaining the Truth of Sikhi and what Moolmantar stands for is what makes Sikhi meaningless for certain youth - not permitting two souls to wed before Maharaj is not the cause of the malaise you fear Paji.

Jonny = I have relatives both in India and the west whose daughters have married out of faith. In the case of the Indian relatives, their daughter married a Hindu man. Today she has no faith in Sikhi, she has raised her children as Hindus. In the case of the relatives in the west, my relative's daughter married a Muslim man, and she also has no faith in Sikhi and has raised her child as a Muslim. In both case Anand Karaj ceremony was performed in the Gurdwara.

UK = Paji i think your family experiences are exceptional. I'm convinced that in the majority of marriages where the couple's parents are Hindu and Sikh respectively ... Sikhi is the path adopted by the majority of the children when the parents choose to marry in a Gurdwara. Worshipping the One God alone or a batch of mythical stone idols should present an easy choice to most in the West. Fair enough your rishthaydaar in the West chose to raise her child in a faith which openly gives men permission in the Quran to beat their wives and openly keep extra slavegirls (or kaffir consorts) and where women are openly and clearly considered inferior to men. That's her choice and that's on her and to an extent it's our fault collectively that Sarbat dha Bhalla counts for less in her mind than an openly anti-female creed where the founder himself Prophet Muhammad had 13 wives and multiple slave girls for his own enjoyment besides. However, due to the cultural changes taking place it is inevitable that, with increasing personal freedoms, more and more Muslim females in the West will voluntarily leave their parents' religion of their own free will the minute the Muslim honour-killing culture starts to lose it's grip in the West.

Jonny = We cannot strengthen our faith by diluting it by encouraging inter faith marriages. If anything this type of encouragement is a recipe for weakening our community. Point is, we are not stopping anyone from marrying who they chose, they are free to marry who they want.

UK = Paji nobody is encouraging anyone into mixed marriages. It's about accepting the reality of what is happening and trying to bring a positive demographic and spiritual outcome from that for Sarbat dha Bhalla.

Jonny = To date I have not seen an inter religious couple who had an Anand Karaj follow SIkhi after marriage. In fact all the cases of inter religious marriages I have seen their children have always been raised as non-Sikhs. And living in the west I have seen plenty of inter religious marriages. So you can forget that allowing non Sikhs to have an Anand Karaj is going to turn them into Sikhs. I think we should utilize more effective methods of doing parchar instead of encouraging the mockery of the Anand Karaj ceremony.

Jonny = Personally I like the way Sikhs are doing parchar in M.P., Mathana. That is a sure and effective way to do parchar that will strengthen our community.

UK = Paji I think your viewpoint has been discoloured by your own anecdotal observations. Statistically, I don't think your supposition holds up. I strongly believe that Sikhi is a logical Truth which if given equal exposure will always be chosen in more than 50% of cases. Your viewpoint ensures 100% of children of such marriages will stay away from Sikhi. By using the Gurbani definition of who is a Sikh I can guarantee you the Panth should strengthen numerically thereby enabling us to do more for Sarbat dha Bhalla rather than less.

UK = Let's look at Madhya Pradesh situation with a view to the future Jonny Paji. What AKJ have done there is superb. However, the reality is that Sikhs in Madhya Pradesh as a total number 0.2% ie 1 person in every 500 in Madhya Pradesh is Sikh. Long term do we realistically feel that the new Madhya Pradesh Sikhs will only marry others whose parents are also Sikh given the demographic reality there? If we can accept that in the long term they probably won't then we need to focus on how to keep the youth strong - not by way of preventing the Anand Karaj's you wish to stop but by ensuring that every Sikh male or female grows up knowing that their faith is not something to be compromised on (because of the equality, opposition to injustice, commitment to humanity etc, etc Sikhi stands for). In short, why would anybody want to raise their children worshipping stone idols whether they be in Benares or Mecca or Bethlehem? Sikhi says male and female are 100% equal whereas no other faith says the same. Sikhi is for Sarbat dha Bhalla - whereas the other faiths claim that if you do not follow their founder's creed one will end up burning in Hell. What legacy do Christianity, Islam and Hinduism have to actually offer the World apart from having killed tens of millions in the name of their respective religions, murdered tens of millions via Slavery and oppressing millions of Dalits via the almost just as wretched Caste System? Copying the Abrahamic faiths method of matrimonial apartheid will never advance the Sikh Panth because our faith is a totally different spiritual path for the benefit of all humanity whether Sikh, Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jain etc that inspires loyalty from within and which cannot be forced but can only be encouraged via pyaar and engagaement with the Sadh Sangat.

[Pehlvan]

To echo what Jonny101 said. It is absolutely daft to think that Sikhs who have mixed marriages will somehow find a love for sikhi and bring their kids up as Gursikhs. The fact that they have had relationships outside of marriage and dragged their parents names through the mud in the process shows that they never cared for Sikhi in the first place. We can see the results around us.....how many children of mixed marriages do you see who are into Sikhi ? They are far away from the religion, language, culture, everything. This is obvious to anyone not wearing rose-tinted barmy PC glasses.

We all know that in these cases it is a last minute grasp by the parents at retaining any sort of izzat....have the

Anand karaj at the gurdwara and pretend that everything is OK. The damage this does to Sikhi is huge. It sends the signal that this is acceptable.....which according to the Sikh Rehat Maryada it is not. Our young generation see this happening and think it is OK to date and have relationships outside of marriage.

It is bad when boys do it and even worse when girls do it. This would never have been tolerated when we had respect and dignity

and it is shameful that today we are talking about accepting this in the gurdwara.

[Bimringham9Singh]

it's really upsetting to see young impressionable youth sitting in the Sangat, witnessing an inter-faith "Anand Karaj", it's completely confusing for them.

As a father I have kindly declined all such invitations, although i will happily attend marriages of other faiths, in their places of worship.

As a Sikh I have utmost respect for all faiths, their customs and traditions.

I have the same respect for mine, hence i disapprove of inter-faith Anand Karajs.

It's clearly a life-style choice, so should be conducted outside the realms of the Gurdwaras.

I have no problem with inter-faith marriages, conducted in a non-religious ceremony.

[chatanga]

UK = The first question Jonny Paji is ... should we take the Guru Granth Sahib Ji definition of a Sikh (jay'rah vi Guru Granth Sahib dhay a'geh matha tek'dhaii) - whosoever bows before Maharaj or the version defined in 1945 when the Nehru+Congress+RSS aim was to limit the definition of "Sikh" to as small a population as possible.

Who so ever bows before Guru Granth Sahib cannot be taken criteria to define a Sikh. This is absurd to think that of all the people world-wide who bow to Guru Ji, are Sikhs. We see thousands of Hindus daily bow their heads at Darbar Sahib, are they Sikhs? No. A person only becomes a Sikh, when he accepts the doctrine of the Guru, and forsakes all others.

This Anand Karaj issue is delicate, we cannot change the principles of our Guru's but we as the Guru Panth, have to find some kind of balance where we are not seen as people who are forcing people out.

Once again, the issue comes down to the Gurdwaras, they simply are not preaching about issues like these, because of the dinosaur mentality we have running the UK gurdwaras. Until these stanis are relieved of pardhangi, they will not be able to address or solve any of the current issues we have concerning the next generation of Sikhs.

[sat]

Gurfateh Sangat Ji, I just came from a local Gurudwara and it was shared with the sangat over there that a North Carolina Gurudwara refused an Anand karaj because the Anand Karaj was for a Hindu family. The sevadar at the same gurdwara went to the committee members and asked to arranged a wedding for his daughter but the memebers turned him away. He wrote to Akal Takht about this matter and still awaiting a response. Can anyone share what Gurughar this is if you know about this as well?

Further it was shared with the sangat that what are these people supposed to do if they get turned away from an anand karaj? Where do they go? If they turn to deras then they're blamed for praising the derawad. If they baptize as Sikhs then they're labelled mazhbi Sikhs. The only option they're left with is going to church and accepting a new religion to practice their faith. Please share your views.

Gurfateh!

As per the original post above the marriage refused was to a hindu family to have anand karaj for there children , not for an inter-faith marriage, no one wants inter-faith marriages , so why is everyone going on about inter-faith, the issue here is hindus wanted there children to have Anand karaj because some hindus have always had anand karaj in there families , i wish people would read instead of just jumping on the band wagon.

[chatanga]

In Panjab, it has been common for Khatris to have Anand Karaj, I have been told that the famous acting family of Shashi Kapoor were all married according to Anand Karaj rites.

[rrss]

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

1. Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, Shabad Guru, is a living guru, as much as Guru Gobind Singh ji and Guru Nanak Dev ji. Can you imagine Guru Gobind Singh sahib welcoming non-sikhs into his house and carrying out their marriage with his blessings? Will he have hours to waste to attend a ceremony of a couple who don't give 2 bits about God and Sikhi? Does he like patits? No. But yes, he will welcome all and sundry into his court to sing to them the Shabad to imbibe God's true essence and help them spiritually and bless them with amrit.

2. As per Gurbani, marriage is a spiritual union of 2 souls. Anand Karaj is based on this fact. Guru Sahib can only give his blessings to such a union. Any other marriage is based on lust and cannot be entertained by anand karaj. It is not a ritualistic ceremony. OP: hindus, if they are unwilling to take amrit, can go bow at a temple or can easily have a registry marriage and spend the average $50,000 western asian wedding fund to spend on charity work. God would be pleased with this.

3. To those claiming that such marriage somehow boosts numbers, same people are quiet when it comes to doing sikhi parchar around the world to spread God's message and quench spiritual thirst, same people like to see sikhi as being owned by those having a sikh ancestor, same people mostly have not taken amrit. Get over it, ancestry is meaningless and void. Each person has their own karam, destiny and life to live. Anyone can become a sikh and if marriage is destined, have a spiritual union marriage blessed by the true guru in his home. Numbers argument is ridiculous. Muslims, Christrians have to convert before being able to have a religious wedding, and they don't have the high standard of spiritual union set by Gurbani, nor do they have Guru.

Those who want to bow during Anand Karaj as non-sikhs and for non-spritual union reasons, please respect Guru ji but also think about your jeevan. You will find a gurdwara willing to perform Anand Karaj, but what is the use of such a marriage- Guru ji won't be blessing it nor is it a spiritual union. Anand Karaj really is a beautiful thing. Pita ji is eager to bless you with spirituality so please visit his home and drink amrit from his 5 piare and he will be more than happy to perform the wedding of his children. Thank you.

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

[tuhintuhin]

In early times, the eldest son of every Hindu family was brought up as a "Sikh"

[JSinghnz]

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

1. Dhan Dhan Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, Shabad Guru, is a living guru, as much as Guru Gobind Singh ji and Guru Nanak Dev ji. Can you imagine Guru Gobind Singh sahib welcoming non-sikhs into his house and carrying out their marriage with his blessings? Will he have hours to waste to attend a ceremony of a couple who don't give 2 bits about God and Sikhi? Does he like patits? No. But yes, he will welcome all and sundry into his court to sing to them the Shabad to imbibe God's true essence and help them spiritually and bless them with amrit.

2. As per Gurbani, marriage is a spiritual union of 2 souls. Anand Karaj is based on this fact. Guru Sahib can only give his blessings to such a union. Any other marriage is based on lust and cannot be entertained by anand karaj. It is not a ritualistic ceremony. OP: hindus, if they are unwilling to take amrit, can go bow at a temple or can easily have a registry marriage and spend the average $50,000 western asian wedding fund to spend on charity work. God would be pleased with this.

3. To those claiming that such marriage somehow boosts numbers, same people are quiet when it comes to doing sikhi parchar around the world to spread God's message and quench spiritual thirst, same people like to see sikhi as being owned by those having a sikh ancestor, same people mostly have not taken amrit. Get over it, ancestry is meaningless and void. Each person has their own karam, destiny and life to live. Anyone can become a sikh and if marriage is destined, have a spiritual union marriage blessed by the true guru in his home. Numbers argument is ridiculous. Muslims, Christrians have to convert before being able to have a religious wedding, and they don't have the high standard of spiritual union set by Gurbani, nor do they have Guru.

Those who want to bow during Anand Karaj as non-sikhs and for non-spritual union reasons, please respect Guru ji but also think about your jeevan. You will find a gurdwara willing to perform Anand Karaj, but what is the use of such a marriage- Guru ji won't be blessing it nor is it a spiritual union. Anand Karaj really is a beautiful thing. Pita ji is eager to bless you with spirituality so please visit his home and drink amrit from his 5 piare and he will be more than happy to perform the wedding of his children. Thank you.

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

Everything you are saying is right but where did you get this information that one has to take amrit to have a Anand Karaj.

You have to be a Sikh to do so.

Please do not try to bend the Sikh Rehat Mayada.

http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_four_chap_eleven.html