Free Will, Hukam, Karam?

[MokhamSingh]

waheguru. i think i finally understood sargun nirgun.

Thanks, Khalsa Ji, for asking this question. I have learnt a lot from Sikhsangat.com, some things time to sink in, but I'm truly grateful.

Waheguru..........

[hsingh68]

That's the Beauty of Gurmat, Khalsa Ji, discussing views, bouncing ideas off each other; thank you too, for replies. As long as we can discuss things, without any bitterness, then all is well...

Waheguru....

I have been reading the massive amount of seva that waheguru has given to you. That blogspot in your signature is amazing...So much truth and beautiful stories. Thankyou :l:

[luckysingh99]

You can call it whatever you want to, but FREEWILL is simply an Illusion and part of the maya-illusion itself.

HUKAM is the will of Truth from the Truth and in line with the Truth. This is NEVER an illusion.

[N30S1NGH]

Beautiful posts everyone especially Bhai Sahib Mokham Singh Ji.

In the past i have read some really long analytic essay on free will hakum. But nothing beats this simple line to put everything in perspective:

You can will what you want but you cannot will what you will - indicating backdrop always remains predestined/pre-ordained..

People may ask now, what about thoughts in our head? are they part of free-will or hakum-karam?

Now -whats behind the thoughts? who is starting the thoughts? This jev thinks I-ego does but its already preordained..

We can say for understanding purposes or spiritual development purposes to transcendent we can say its our past life tendacies/thoughts in our sub consciousness- antish karan but fact remains ultimately its all preordained

[Singh559]

Beautiful posts everyone especially Bhai Sahib Mokham Singh Ji.

In the past i have read some really long analytic essay on free will hakum. But nothing beats this simple line to put everything in perspective:

You can will what you want but you cannot will what you will - indicating backdrop always remains predestined/pre-ordained..

People may ask now, what about thoughts in our head? are they part of free-will or hakum-karam?

Now -whats behind the thoughts? who is starting the thoughts? This jev thinks I-ego does but its already preordained..

We can say for understanding purposes or spiritual development purposes to transcendent we can say its our past life tendacies/thoughts in our sub consciousness- antish karan but fact remains ultimately its all preordained

Can you expand on the bolded and how would you reply to the scenario and question i laid out in the two-three posts I made?

[luckysingh99]

One mistake that is often made is to think of Free will as being in contrast to His Will or HUKAM. This is where differing opinions and understandings arise from what i gather.

For all those that think there is absolutely no free will and that all our actions are played by him.............(have a little think of this)

- Someone once said to me.....that if God has dictated all my doings of rights and wrongs, then WHY do I have to feel like asking for Forgiveness for my wrongdoings.???

Why be sorry for doing wrong ?

Why ask for forgiveness ?

I think of free will as being part of maya-ego-illusion, that is still under the backdrop or umbrella of governing HUKAM.

We cloud our minds and fall under the influence of maya, or you could say that our Ego-fuelled mind marries the Maya.

Take away the Maya and Ego..and so Vanishes any ideas of Self-will.

[Singh559]

Both sides make good points, I don't know myself.

[Guest dasguruka]

There is no free will. It's an illusion that we have gotten ourselves into.

We were created to love each other unconditionally. This is when everyone was close to each other. Devtas would give darshan on will. People were happy. But once the 5 senses got influenced by Maya and the jeev started to think that this world is real, because of its beauty, that's when we got lost into the cycle of karma.

Eh jagg sache ki hai kothri sache Ka Vich vaas.

For every action there is a reaction. I visualize His Hukam as a globe that's intertwined with infinite wires that connect time and space to each other therefore He has access to His Hukam at will. If someone pleases Him He pulls him/her out. If not then the cycle of Karma continued until self realization with Gurus Grace.

It's all preordained. We can only beg and do Ardaas for His Kirpa drishti. If it pleases Him then we are led to a Guru depending on our Karma. If our bad Karma is too much then we suffer until the Good karma shows up. But He is the ultimate Doer. Just astonished at His Power and kudrat. Vaheguru

[jaspreet1]

Waheguru only does good.

Humans do bad so they ask forgiveness. If forgiveness is not asked then a person is in ego and is displaying that he can do as he wishes (I have free will). Waheguru gives a Hukam for the human to ask for forgiveness. Humans are fallible and Waheguru is not. Waheguru demostrates to souls what happens when Gur Parsad is not followed. Then Waheguru himself makes the person forgive and gives him the correct path to walk on.

Everything is in his Hukam and nothing is outside. Saying free will does exist is saying that a human (creation) is capable of living without Waheguru. Not even the atheist are without Waheguru. Waheguru himself has made the atheist forget about him, but Waheguru himself will join the atheist to him as he commands.

Lastly, no one has to feel sorry for anything. Waheguru commands the person either way and the play takes place. Forgiveness is part of the play willed by Waheguru. Those who understand this will be thankful for Waheguru running this play and their soul can unite with Waheguru. Understanding only comes after he wills. Otherwise complete darkness is only seen.

[Guest]

Waheguru only does good.

Humans do bad so they ask forgiveness. If forgiveness is not asked then a person is in ego and is displaying that he can do as he wishes (I have free will). Waheguru gives a Hukam for the human to ask for forgiveness. Humans are fallible and Waheguru is not. Waheguru demostrates to souls what happens when Gur Parsad is not followed. Then Waheguru himself makes the person forgive and gives him the correct path to walk on.

Everything is in his Hukam and nothing is outside. Saying free will does exist is saying that a human (creation) is capable of living without Waheguru. Not even the atheist are without Waheguru. Waheguru himself has made the atheist forget about him, but Waheguru himself will join the atheist to him as he commands.

Lastly, no one has to feel sorry for anything. Waheguru commands the person either way and the play takes place. Forgiveness is part of the play willed by Waheguru. Those who understand this will be thankful for Waheguru running this play and their soul can unite with Waheguru. Understanding only comes after he wills. Otherwise complete darkness is only seen.

So what you are saying is that Waheguru only does good and humans do bad?Who made kalyug/shataan?We are not like Christians who think god is good and satan is the bad one.Waheguru is the doer of good and bad.He makes good things and evil things.If you make Waheguru only good then who controls the panj chor which is bad?Waheguru is the one who created the panj chor.He creates jamdoots etc.If we put Waheguru as only good then that means that something else controls bad and Waheguru is not all powerful.