Free Will, Hukam, Karam?

[Singh559]

So what you are saying is that Waheguru only does good and humans do bad?Who made kalyug/shataan?We are not like Christians who think god is good and satan is the bad one.Waheguru is the doer of good and bad.He makes good things and evil things.If you make Waheguru only good then who controls the panj chor which is bad?Waheguru is the one who created the panj chor.He creates jamdoots etc.If we put Waheguru as only good then that means that something else controls bad and Waheguru is not all powerful.

This, that's a very Abrahamic look at Vaheguru. Mokham Singh points out Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji's description of Vaheguru in Jaap Sahib in previous couple pages if anyone wants to see.

[jaspreet1]

Singh123456777, do you think an atheist denying Waheguru existence is bad?

[N30S1NGH]

Most reformist sikh missionaries don't like jaap sahib, sri akaal ustat for that very same reason. Their abhramic protestant ferengi idealogy gets crushed into pieces.

[scali]

Our free will is Whaeguru"s will. There is no such thing as devil/shatan. How can an entity (devil) fight for your soul with GOD and GOD has a chance it can loose the battle with the devil. This is very Abrahmic concept not Sikhi.

[Guest]

Singh123456777, do you think an atheist denying Waheguru existence is bad?

It is Waheguru making the atheist forget Waheguru.

This, that's a very Abrahamic look at Vaheguru. Mokham Singh points out Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji's description of Vaheguru in Jaap Sahib in previous couple pages if anyone wants to see.

i have an abrahamic look at vaheguru?

[Singh559]

It is Waheguru making the atheist forget Waheguru.

i have an abrahamic look at vaheguru?

No lol. I said this as in I agree with what you said and then meant to point out that Jaspreet1's look was Abrahamic.

[N30S1NGH]

Singh123456777, do you think an atheist denying Waheguru existence is bad?

All though not totally explicit directed towards atheist, here is similiar connations towards demons:

ਕਹੂੰ ਦੇਵਤਾਨ ਕੇ ਦਿਵਾਨ ਮੈ ਬਿਰਾਜਮਾਨ ਕਹੂੰ ਦਾਨਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਗੁਮਾਨ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਤ ਹੋ ॥

कहूं देवतान के दिवान मै बिराजमान कहूं दानवान को गुमान मति देत हो ॥

O Lord! Somewhere Thou art seated in the Court of gods and somewhere Thou givest the egoistic intellect to demons. (Sri akaal ustat)

[Guest]

ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਬਿਸਰੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੀਆ ॥ सो किउ बिसरै जिनि सभु किछु दीआ ॥ So ki▫o bisrai jin sabẖ kicẖẖ ḏī▫ā. Why forget Him, who has given us everything?

ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਬਿਸਰੈ ਜਿ ਜੀਵਨ ਜੀਆ ॥ सो किउ बिसरै जि जीवन जीआ ॥ So ki▫o bisrai jė jīvan jī▫ā. Why forget Him, who is the Life of the living beings?

ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਬਿਸਰੈ ਜਿ ਅਗਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਖੈ ॥ सो किउ बिसरै जि अगनि महि राखै ॥ So ki▫o bisrai jė agan mėh rākẖai. Why forget Him, who preserves us in the fire of the womb?

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਕੋ ਬਿਰਲਾ ਲਾਖੈ ॥ गुर प्रसादि को बिरला लाखै ॥ Gur parsāḏ ko birlā lākẖai. By Guru's Grace, rare is the one who realizes this.

ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਬਿਸਰੈ ਜਿ ਬਿਖੁ ਤੇ ਕਾਢੈ ॥ सो किउ बिसरै जि बिखु ते काढै ॥ So ki▫o bisrai jė bikẖ ṯe kādẖai. Why forget Him, who lifts us up out of corruption?

ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਾ ਟੂਟਾ ਗਾਢੈ ॥ जनम जनम का टूटा गाढै ॥ Janam janam kā tūtā gādẖai. Those separated from Him for countless lifetimes, are re-united with Him once again.

ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਤਤੁ ਇਹੈ ਬੁਝਾਇਆ ॥ गुरि पूरै ततु इहै बुझाइआ ॥ Gur pūrai ṯaṯ ihai bujẖā▫i▫ā. Through the Perfect Guru, this essential reality is understood.

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਨ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥੪॥ प्रभु अपना नानक जन धिआइआ ॥४॥ Parabẖ apnā Nānak jan ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā. ||4|| O Nanak, God's humble servants meditate on Him. ||4||

ਸਾਜਨ ਸੰਤ ਕਰਹੁ ਇਹੁ ਕਾਮੁ ॥ साजन संत करहु इहु कामु ॥ Sājan sanṯ karahu ih kām. O friends, O Saints, make this your work.

ਆਨ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਜਪਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ आन तिआगि जपहु हरि नामु ॥ Ān ṯi▫āg japahu har nām. Renounce everything else, and chant the Name of the Lord.

ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਵਹੁ ॥ सिमरि सिमरि सिमरि सुख पावहु ॥ Simar simar simar sukẖ pāvhu. Meditate, meditate, meditate in remembrance of Him, and find peace.

ਆਪਿ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵਹੁ ॥ आपि जपहु अवरह नामु जपावहु ॥ Āp japahu avrah nām japāvhu. Chant the Naam yourself, and inspire others to chant it.

ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਇ ਤਰੀਐ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ भगति भाइ तरीऐ संसारु ॥ Bẖagaṯ bẖā▫e ṯarī▫ai sansār. By loving devotional worship, you shall cross over the world-ocean.

ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤੀ ਤਨੁ ਹੋਸੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥ बिनु भगती तनु होसी छारु ॥ Bin bẖagṯī ṯan hosī cẖẖār. Without devotional meditation, the body will be just ashes.

ਸਰਬ ਕਲਿਆਣ ਸੂਖ ਨਿਧਿ ਨਾਮੁ ॥ सरब कलिआण सूख निधि नामु ॥ Sarab kali▫āṇ sūkẖ niḏẖ nām. All joys and comforts are in the treasure of the Naam.

ਬੂਡਤ ਜਾਤ ਪਾਏ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੁ ॥ बूडत जात पाए बिस्रामु ॥ Būdaṯ jāṯ pā▫e bisrām. Even the drowning can reach the place of rest and safety.

ਸਗਲ ਦੂਖ ਕਾ ਹੋਵਤ ਨਾਸੁ ॥ सगल दूख का होवत नासु ॥ Sagal ḏūkẖ kā hovaṯ nās. All sorrows shall vanish.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਗੁਨਤਾਸੁ ॥੫॥ नानक नामु जपहु गुनतासु ॥५॥ Nānak nām japahu gunṯās. ||5|| O Nanak, chant the Naam, the treasure of excellence. ||5||

ਉਪਜੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਰਸੁ ਚਾਉ ॥ उपजी प्रीति प्रेम रसु चाउ ॥ Upjī parīṯ parem ras cẖā▫o. Love and affection, and the taste of yearning, have welled up within;

ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਇਹੀ ਸੁਆਉ ॥ मन तन अंतरि इही सुआउ ॥ Man ṯan anṯar ihī su▫ā▫o. within my mind and body, this is my purpose:

ਨੇਤ੍ਰਹੁ ਪੇਖਿ ਦਰਸੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ नेत्रहु पेखि दरसु सुखु होइ ॥ Neṯarahu pekẖ ḏaras sukẖ ho▫e. beholding with my eyes His Blessed Vision, I am at peace.

ਮਨੁ ਬਿਗਸੈ ਸਾਧ ਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ॥ मनु बिगसै साध चरन धोइ ॥ Man bigsai sāḏẖ cẖaran ḏẖo▫e. My mind blossoms forth in ecstasy, washing the feet of the Holy.

ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਰੰਗੁ ॥ भगत जना कै मनि तनि रंगु ॥ Bẖagaṯ janā kai man ṯan rang. The minds and bodies of His devotees are infused with His Love.

ਬਿਰਲਾ ਕੋਊ ਪਾਵੈ ਸੰਗੁ ॥ बिरला कोऊ पावै संगु ॥ Birlā ko▫ū pāvai sang. Rare is the one who obtains their company.

ਏਕ ਬਸਤੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਕਰਿ ਮਇਆ ॥ एक बसतु दीजै करि मइआ ॥ Ėk basaṯ ḏījai kar ma▫i▫ā. Show Your mercy - please, grant me this one request:

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਲਇਆ ॥ गुर प्रसादि नामु जपि लइआ ॥ Gur parsāḏ nām jap la▫i▫ā. by Guru's Grace, may I chant the Naam.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਉਪਮਾ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ता की उपमा कही न जाइ ॥ Ŧā kī upmā kahī na jā▫e. His Praises cannot be spoken;

ਨਾਨਕ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੬॥ नानक रहिआ सरब समाइ ॥६॥ Nānak rahi▫ā sarab samā▫e. ||6|| O Nanak, He is contained among all. ||6||

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਖਸੰਦ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ॥ प्रभ बखसंद दीन दइआल ॥ Parabẖ bakẖsanḏ ḏīn ḏa▫i▫āl. God, the Forgiving Lord, is kind to the poor.

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲ ਸਦਾ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥ भगति वछल सदा किरपाल ॥ Bẖagaṯ vacẖẖal saḏā kirpāl. He loves His devotees, and He is always merciful to them.

ਅਨਾਥ ਨਾਥ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗੁਪਾਲ ॥ अनाथ नाथ गोबिंद गुपाल ॥ Anāth nāth gobinḏ gupāl. The Patron of the patronless, the Lord of the Universe, the Sustainer of the world,

ਸਰਬ ਘਟਾ ਕਰਤ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲ ॥ सरब घटा करत प्रतिपाल ॥ Sarab gẖatā karaṯ parṯipāl. the Nourisher of all beings.

ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਰਤਾਰ ॥ आदि पुरख कारण करतार ॥ Āḏ purakẖ kāraṇ karṯār. The Primal Being, the Creator of the Creation.

ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਅਧਾਰ ॥ भगत जना के प्रान अधार ॥ Bẖagaṯ janā ke parān aḏẖār. The Support of the breath of life of His devotees.

ਜੋ ਜੋ ਜਪੈ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਪੁਨੀਤ ॥ जो जो जपै सु होइ पुनीत ॥ Jo jo japai so ho▫e punīṯ. Whoever meditates on Him is sanctified,

ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਇ ਲਾਵੈ ਮਨ ਹੀਤ ॥ भगति भाइ लावै मन हीत ॥ Bẖagaṯ bẖā▫e lāvai man hīṯ. focusing the mind in loving devotional worship.

ਹਮ ਨਿਰਗੁਨੀਆਰ ਨੀਚ ਅਜਾਨ ॥ हम निरगुनीआर नीच अजान ॥ Ham nirgunī▫ār nīcẖ ajān. I am unworthy, lowly and ignorant.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਸਰਨਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਭਗਵਾਨ ॥੭॥ नानक तुमरी सरनि पुरख भगवान ॥७॥ Nānak ṯumrī saran purakẖ bẖagvān. ||7|| Nanak has entered Your Sanctuary, O Supreme Lord God. ||7||

ਸਰਬ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਮੋਖ ਪਾਏ ॥ सरब बैकुंठ मुकति मोख पाए ॥ Sarab baikunṯẖ mukaṯ mokẖ pā▫e. Everything is obtained: the heavens, liberation and deliverance,

ਏਕ ਨਿਮਖ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਏ ॥ एक निमख हरि के गुन गाए ॥ Ėk nimakẖ har ke gun gā▫e. if one sings the Lord's Glories, even for an instant.

ਅਨਿਕ ਰਾਜ ਭੋਗ ਬਡਿਆਈ ॥ अनिक राज भोग बडिआई ॥ Anik rāj bẖog badi▫ā▫ī. So many realms of power, pleasures and great glories,

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਕਥਾ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਈ ॥ हरि के नाम की कथा मनि भाई ॥ Har ke nām kī kathā man bẖā▫ī. come to one whose mind is pleased with the Sermon of the Lord's Name.

ਬਹੁ ਭੋਜਨ ਕਾਪਰ ਸੰਗੀਤ ॥ बहु भोजन कापर संगीत ॥ Baho bẖojan kāpar sangīṯ. Abundant foods, clothes and music

ਰਸਨਾ ਜਪਤੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨੀਤ ॥ रसना जपती हरि हरि नीत ॥ Rasnā japṯī har har nīṯ. come to one whose tongue continually chants the Lord's Name, Har, Har.

ਭਲੀ ਸੁ ਕਰਨੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਧਨਵੰਤ ॥ भली सु करनी सोभा धनवंत ॥ Bẖalī so karnī sobẖā ḏẖanvanṯ. His actions are good, he is glorious and wealthy;

ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸੇ ਪੂਰਨ ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ ॥ हिरदै बसे पूरन गुर मंत ॥ Hirḏai base pūran gur manṯ. the Mantra of the Perfect Guru dwells within his heart.

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦੇਹੁ ਨਿਵਾਸ ॥ साधसंगि प्रभ देहु निवास ॥ Sāḏẖsang parabẖ ḏeh nivās. O God, grant me a home in the Company of the Holy.

ਸਰਬ ਸੂਖ ਨਾਨਕ ਪਰਗਾਸ ॥੮॥੨੦॥ सरब सूख नानक परगास ॥८॥२०॥ Sarab sūkẖ Nānak pargās. ||8||20|| All pleasures, O Nanak, are so revealed. ||8||20||

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ सलोकु ॥ Salok. Shalok:

ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥ सरगुन निरगुन निरंकार सुंन समाधी आपि ॥ Sargun nirgun nirankār sunn samāḏẖī āp. He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.

ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥ आपन कीआ नानका आपे ही फिरि जापि ॥१॥ Āpan kī▫ā nānkā āpe hī fir jāp. ||1|| Through His Creation, O Nanak, He meditates on Himself. ||1||

ਅਸਟਪਦੀ ॥ असटपदी ॥ Asatpaḏī. Ashtapadee:

ਜਬ ਅਕਾਰੁ ਇਹੁ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥ जब अकारु इहु कछु न द्रिसटेता ॥ Jab akār ih kacẖẖ na ḏaristeṯā. When this world had not yet appeared in any form,

ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਤਬ ਕਹ ਤੇ ਹੋਤਾ ॥ पाप पुंन तब कह ते होता ॥ Pāp punn ṯab kah ṯe hoṯā. who then committed sins and performed good deeds?

ਜਬ ਧਾਰੀ ਆਪਨ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ॥ जब धारी आपन सुंन समाधि ॥ Jab ḏẖārī āpan sunn samāḏẖ. When the Lord Himself was in Profound Samaadhi,

ਤਬ ਬੈਰ ਬਿਰੋਧ ਕਿਸੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਮਾਤਿ ॥ तब बैर बिरोध किसु संगि कमाति ॥ Ŧab bair biroḏẖ kis sang kamāṯ. then against whom were hate and jealousy directed?

ਜਬ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਬਰਨੁ ਚਿਹਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਪਤ ॥ जब इस का बरनु चिहनु न जापत ॥ Jab is kā baran cẖihan na jāpaṯ. When there was no color or shape to be seen,

ਤਬ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਸਹਿ ਬਿਆਪਤ ॥ तब हरख सोग कहु किसहि बिआपत ॥ Ŧab harakẖ sog kaho kisėh bi▫āpaṯ. then who experienced joy and sorrow?

ਜਬ ਆਪਨ ਆਪ ਆਪਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥ जब आपन आप आपि पारब्रहम ॥ Jab āpan āp āp pārbarahm. When the Supreme Lord Himself was Himself All-in-all,

ਤਬ ਮੋਹ ਕਹਾ ਕਿਸੁ ਹੋਵਤ ਭਰਮ ॥ तब मोह कहा किसु होवत भरम ॥ Ŧab moh kahā kis hovaṯ bẖaram. then where was emotional attachment, and who had doubts?

ਆਪਨ ਖੇਲੁ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤੀਜਾ ॥ आपन खेलु आपि वरतीजा ॥ Āpan kẖel āp varṯījā. He Himself has staged His own drama;

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧॥ नानक करनैहारु न दूजा ॥१॥ Nānak karnaihār na ḏūjā. ||1|| O Nanak, there is no other Creator. ||1||

If you read this whole ashtpadi you would understand that we have no free will.

No lol. I said this as in I agree with what you said and then meant to point out that Jaspreet1's look was Abrahamic.

lol

I was listening to Sri suraj parkash at Mallon gurduwara and the sakhi was about when guru Nanak dev Ji met kalyug.In the end Kalyug became a sikh of the guru.

That was along time ago though so I could be wrong.

[jaspreet1]

It is Waheguru making the atheist forget Waheguru.

Yes I agree with you as that is exactly what I said in the post you disagreed with. Here it is again:

Not even the atheist are without Waheguru. Waheguru himself has made the atheist forget about him, but Waheguru himself will join the atheist to him as he commands.

Then also in the very first post, which you disagree with, I said the following:

Everything is in his Hukam and nothing is outside.

Which means he is the doer of all and nothing is done by the human. My post was specifically focusing on explaining how forgiveness fits into the play of Waheguru as a poster was unsure and thought the ability to forgive leads to free will. But after reading my post it shows the ability to forgive is also controlled by Waheguru and not outside his Hukam.

[Guest]

Yes I agree with you as that is exactly what I said in the post you disagreed with. Here it is again:

Then also in the very first post, which you disagree with, I said the following:

Which means he is the doer of all and nothing is done by the human. My post was specifically focusing on explaining how forgiveness fits into the play of Waheguru as a poster was unsure and thought the ability to forgive leads to free will. But after reading my post it shows the ability to forgive is also controlled by Waheguru and not outside his Hukam.

Read my post properly.I disagreed with what you said that Waheguru is only good.