Bhatra Community

[Mehtab Singh]

And Mehtab Singh, now that you've started pasting really really long lists of 'Caste' surnames on this Sikh forum are we all to expect long lists of ramgharia, khatri and jatt surnames any time soon....or were you just having a silly moment ?

I was making sure the CTRL key was working fine.

We will just have to order enough tissues

to manage yours and all others

hurt feelings. So just go for it.

Lol

Hahaha, nah its aite. Tissues wouldn't do the trick.

[luckysingh99]

The thread started off quite well and being informative for misinformed people like me.

I found it quite educating but sadly it has swayed into the typical sikh sangat slating posts.

I lost complete interest after about page 5 or so..... but anyway.. I noticed some comments and facts getting thrown about from post to post.

From the few bhatras I have come across and from what i know-

1)Yes, they came very early and Southampton and other ports were the 1st places, even though some poster said that Southamton is 'no bhatra are' ?

But regardless of where the next generations moved, back then it was port of entry and 1st stop for the early comers.

2) The ones I have come across don't use surnames but use SIngh and Kaur.

3) Yes, most of the one's I knew were fairly dark skinned, so there must be some geographical reason for this ?

4) The women don't seem to work as mentioned and get married very young at about 16-18 in most cases.

5)Oh yes, the misconception of bacon and eggs at the gurdwara.....Yes, I can verify that in Manchester back in the 90's this was happening for definite.

Why ??.... I haven't got a clue,... whether it was just some small community or what... but the messages that came out and spread towards mid and south england were that bhatras serve english breakfasts of bacons and eggs without the baked beans !!

These are just a few facts that I have become aware of as a common man and they are not my personal views..... and there is absolutely no intention of deliberate offence.

[sikhiseeker]

If your dad, uncles and brothers are too lazy to do housework tell them to pull their finger out.

If your brothers, dad and uncles are too dim to be able to make roti tell them to learn.

>>>what a ridiculous comment!

Was your grandad so incapable of preparing to hold the Guru's diwan that your grandmother had to do it ?

Was there something on the television your grandad couldn't possibly miss that only your grandmother could read the hukamnama ?

Have any of the men in generations of your family ever been capable of doing anything themselves ?

>>>veer ji, after losing everything in India when independence was given and Pakistan was created, my family who lived in Lahore walked as many other Sikhs to patiala with nothing. My gran carried my dad all the way. After coming to the uk again with nothing as everything was lost, my grandad worked hard in the industrial foundries without giving up his sikhi roop, he died early with cancer. My whole family have worked supporting not only their families, however many other families which came to the uk later with money, a roof over their Heads and food.

Whatever point you attempted to make 'Sikhiseeker' tells us more about the inherent male misogyny in your family than anything else.

Your pathetic attempt to justify disgusting and totally un-Sikh gender inequality in the name of 'motherhood' is highly offensive to generations of Sikh women. Pre-Sikhi, our female ancestors in Punjab were famous for working as hard as the men. With Sikhi, they were at the forefront in the battlefield. You attempt to justify your misogyny in the name of 'tradition' and 'not being western' yet you fail to realise that the gender equality our Guru's espoused was many hundreds of years ahead of any such equality in the west. When it comes to gender equality the 'western modernists' have learned from us.......not us from them.

>>>> what is so important about panjab? Sikhi has no geographical boundary. There is no difference of a sikh from Delhi to a sikh from panjab. If you cannot recognise the importance of the role of a mother and how a child learns so much from their mother in the early years about sikhi and you think that's insulting to a women confuses me. The very fact that when my grandfathers generation were working seven days a week and as a family, the gurus diwan was always still put on demonstrates the dedication to sikhi of the early sikh settlers. It also demonstrates the equality of our religion.

I take it you are not a hypocrite and you strongly believe Mai Bhaggo was way too 'modern' and 'western' and an embarrassment to her family being out on horseback fighting when she should have been at home getting her husband's cha, roti and sabji ready ?????

>>> mata mai bhago demonstrated the will, work ethic and most importantly gurmat in order for her to do what she did. What mai bhago did was not what you call 'modern' or 'western'. It was simply gurmat, just like how mata gujri demonstrated, mata kevi, mata nanaki and many many more strong sikh women. People strive to be modern, forgetting gurmat.

I don't understand how you have taken offence to my post as I am very anticaste and believe in the equality of women to the point of which I feel a sikh women should also be able to become a panj pyara, I did start a topic on this a while back but it was locked.

And Mehtab Singh, now that you've started pasting really really long lists of 'Caste' surnames on this Sikh forum are we all to expect long lists of ramgharia, khatri and jatt surnames any time soon....or were you just having a silly moment ?

[sikhiseeker]

I typed up a long post, but then I am like screw it LOL. No I am no intellectual, and I rather not disclose my emotions, because I would end up swearing which would hurt my feelings as well as others who read.

WJKK WJKF

If you disagree with me, that's fine. After all this is a forum where Sikhs are able to converse, if you wish not to converse with me, don't. If you feel you cannot reply based on your emotion and experience due to you swearing at someone, I will do ardas for you to calm your anger. But you didn't have to reply in the way you did, as no quote/post was made personally too you. If you do not care what I have to say, simply don't read it.

[sikhiseeker]

WJKK WJKF

Rather than attach ourselves to geographical boundaries, castes and clans and skin colours. We should recognise where and who the foundation of the Khalsa Panth were. The panj pyara were from all over India, of different castes and traditions, but all this was left behind and gurmat and Amrit was the way forward. After this foundation, there have been uncountable numbers of Sikhs, men women and children who gave their life's for sikhi, not caste or clan or profit or modernisation. Just for truth and equality.

[Mehtab Singh]

WJKK WJKF

If you disagree with me, that's fine. After all this is a forum where Sikhs are able to converse, if you wish not to converse with me, don't. If you feel you cannot reply based on your emotion and experience due to you swearing at someone, I will do ardas for you to calm your anger. But you didn't have to replying the way you did, as no quote/post was made personally too you. If you do not care what I have to say, simply don't read it.

Chill yaar! You were not the target of my message, no one else was either, it was a general comment. But please do Ardas for my anger. I'd appreciate that

[sikhiseeker]

Chill yaar! You were not the target of my message, no one else was either, it was a general comment. But please do Ardas for my anger. I'd appreciate that

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, the ardas is done but your message was quotining my username, hence why I assume it was for my attention.

[Mehtab Singh]

nah nah, you'd be among the last people I'd ever swear at, relax :D

[sikhiseeker]

If your dad, uncles and brothers are too lazy to do housework tell them to pull their finger out.

If your brothers, dad and uncles are too dim to be able to make roti tell them to learn.

Was your grandad so incapable of preparing to hold the Guru's diwan that your grandmother had to do it ?

Was there something on the television your grandad couldn't possibly miss that only your grandmother could read the hukamnama ?

Have any of the men in generations of your family ever been capable of doing anything themselves ?

Whatever point you attempted to make 'Sikhiseeker' tells us more about the inherent male misogyny in your family than anything else.

Your pathetic attempt to justify disgusting and totally un-Sikh gender inequality in the name of 'motherhood' is highly offensive to generations of Sikh women. Pre-Sikhi, our female ancestors in Punjab were famous for working as hard as the men. With Sikhi, they were at the forefront in the battlefield. You attempt to justify your misogyny in the name of 'tradition' and 'not being western' yet you fail to realise that the gender equality our Guru's espoused was many hundreds of years ahead of any such equality in the west. When it comes to gender equality the 'western modernists' have learned from us.......not us from them.

I take it you are not a hypocrite and you strongly believe Mai Bhaggo was way too 'modern' and 'western' and an embarrassment to her family being out on horseback fighting when she should have been at home getting her husband's cha, roti and sabji ready ?????

And Mehtab Singh, now that you've started pasting really really long lists of 'Caste' surnames on this Sikh forum are we all to expect long lists of ramgharia, khatri and jatt surnames any time soon....or were you just having a silly moment ?

WJKK WJKF

Jagsaw Singh, I am waiting on your reply veer ji?

[JagsawSingh]

WJKK WJKF

Jagsaw Singh, I am waiting on your reply veer ji?

Reply to what, brother ?

I think this thread has had it's day and I'm glad the admins have locked the new one started.

But....if you're referring to the description you gave about your own family history, and the way your grandmother and other females, performed wonderfully after so much hardship than of course I understand and appreciate that. But where I feel you are wrong, is the way in which you prescribe your own family's experience to everyone else.

In normal circumstances, no limits should be placed on a Sikh....and a 'Sikh' has no gender. A Sikh can be a male or a female. Both as 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' our females have always worked out in the fields, always been warriors out in the battlefield. THAT, is our tradition. So you have to understand that as 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' the western model of the housewife at home whilst husband earns a living is totally alien to our history and psyche. But things have got a little topsy turvy...upside down in that we now have Sikhs that believe Sikh females should not be out earning a living and term those that do as 'western' influenced. This is madness. :stupidme:

But the thing is that our background does play such an important part in shaping our psyche. For the Jatt Sikhs, the calvinist thinking that hard work is a route to salvation is so deeply held it will take another couple of centuries to break. For example, there are so many aunties of mine that live in £2 million houses in Norwood Green and Osterley etc, i.e hardly short of money, and yet they continue to work up to 60 hours per week as cleaners in local hospitals and schools. That calvinist hard work as a route to salvation ethic is just so deeply inbedded in the Jatt Sikh's character. Lets take my example for a moment. Seriously, as I haven't got funding for my research and having to pay my way through my doctorate, I have to earn a living whilst studying. In all honesty, with my qualifications I could relatively easily get a job so much easier and paying so much more than what I'm earning now. But there's just something within me, something spiritual, that requires me to fulfill hard physical, manual work in order to feel spiritually connected. Its a Jatt thing for sure but I'd like to feel it was a Sikh thing because we jatt sikhs have always referred to it as the Sikh work ethic. Evidentally though, sadly, there are many Sikh groups that do not possess it.