Bhatra Community

[JRoudh]

Bhatra community it seems is an older Sikh community and it seems that they would arrived by boat. It seems that for this reason they would be based in port based coastal cities and towns.

The later Sikhs would have based themselves in more industrial areas. The reason why there are Sikhs in the Southall area is because of a Rubber Factory which was owned by some ex military person who served with many Sikhs. I presume that Birmingham and West Midlands again attracted Siks due to the abundance of factory/assembly work.

Yes they arrived by Ship as they migrated during the 1920's to 19'40s as this was the dominate form of transport in those days. When the ships would arrive they would first dock in the sea ports as that is a ships entrance in UK. The Bhatras had contact with Punjabi sea merchants and would export/import goods into the UK.

Most Bhats settled into Britain between world war 1 and world war 2. In Britain’s ports – Glasgow, London, Liverpool, Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol, Southampton and Portmouth. With only a few inland settlements in Edinburgh, Birmingham, Manchester, and Nottingham.

In essence the Bhatras are still hugely concentrated in the ports of Britain apart from London, Nottingham , Manchester, Edinburgh where they have migrated inland to some degree. But the main population of Bhats remains further out. Saying this I am from London and live in areas with a big Bhat population. London being the exception as it draws more people to it from all the other cities.

The post– 1945 migrations of Jats and Ramgharias was predominantly to industrial cities of the north of England(such as Bradford, Leeds, Southall and also midlands – Birmingham, Leicester, Coventry.

[StarStriker]

Quite interesting stuff here i have to say, im from bedfordshire, n i grew up n have quite a lot of bhatra friends. What i found from them, lookin from the outside, is that they have very big families (which is a good thing), and tend to keep kesh/paghs better than most sikh tribes. Also can you tell us, why it was, that bhatras moved to the uk, a lot earlier (20s), than other tribes of panjab? Coz im frm a tribe that is hardly heard of/talked of in uk/sikh circles, but my grandad (both sides) came over in 70s, along with most other tribes. My great grandad also fought in british indian armys campaigns in basra (iraq) vs the ottoman empire, were there many bhatras serving in the british indian army aswel? Bcoz i kno a lot of the 1st gurdwaras 1st built in uk, were done so by the bhatra community, including the 1 in luton, where SGGS was read out in a small shed, incredible dedication!

[JagsawSingh]

Bhatra community it seems is an older Sikh community and it seems that they would arrived by boat. It seems that for this reason they would be based in port based coastal cities and towns.

The Bhatras are definately Britain's oldest Sikh community but its worth mentioning that alot of the older established jatt Sikh communities in the UK also arrived by boat (my grandfather included) and the huge old and established Sikh community in Southampton is testament to that.

The later Sikhs would have based themselves in more industrial areas. The reason why there are Sikhs in the Southall area is because of a Rubber Factory which was owned by some ex military person who served with many Sikhs. I presume that Birmingham and West Midlands again attracted Siks due to the abundance of factory/assembly work.

It's quite interesting actually because my grandfather was one of those pioneers at Woolf's rubber factory in Southall. He, along with the majority of jatt Sikhs settled in the UK between the mid 1940's and mid 50's, lived alongside the bhatra Sikhs in the East End of London around Aldgate. As Aldgate is these days very much a commercial part of the City its hard to imagine how, in those days, it was very much a slum residential area. I am told that, although they all lived in the East End half of them commuted west each day to work in Southall and the other half were bussed to work eastwards at the paper factory in Gravesend. Both these factories were owned by industrialists that were fond of Sikhs as they served alongside them in the army and to this day those 2 towns (Southall and Gravesend) remain Britain's 2 largest Sikh towns. Like the Hugeonots, Jews and Irish before them they naturally moved away from that East End slum closer to those 2 areas. But I'm glad you mentioned the rubber factory because people often mistakingly think the massive Sikh population in western London is there because of it's proximity to the airport and the work opportunities there. The fact is that the foundation of this community was not the airport but factories such as Woolf's, the Margarine factory etc. Later arrivals naturally settled where these pioneers had already laid the foundation and were fortunate that it offered opportunities at the airport for work.

were there many bhatras serving in the british indian army aswel?

There were no bhatras serving in the British Army. The British were actually quite racist and elitist in their views of the different Sikh communities and had strict rules of only recruiting Jatts and, to a lesser etend, mazhabis. In fact, the British had an extremely racist and discriminatory view of bhatras as demonstrated by Denzil's Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab. In that book, Denzil describes bhatras as vagabonds and gypsies.

No, the bhatras came to the UK as peddlars, selling things like cleaning cloths and fabrics door to door up and down the country with a suitcase full of wares. As they have a strict policy, similar to Muslims, of their womenfolk not working for a living, they don't have the same tradition of working in factories etc.

[StarStriker]

The Bhatras are definately Britain's oldest Sikh community but its worth mentioning that alot of the older established jatt Sikh communities in the UK also arrived by boat (my grandfather included) and the huge old and established Sikh community in Southampton is testament to that.

It's quite interesting actually because my grandfather was one of those pioneers at Woolf's rubber factory in Southall. He, along with the majority of jatt Sikhs settled in the UK between the mid 1940's and mid 50's, lived alongside the bhatra Sikhs in the East End of London around Aldgate. As Aldgate is these days very much a commercial part of the City its hard to imagine how, in those days, it was very much a slum residential area. I am told that, although they all lived in the East End half of them commuted west each day to work in Southall and the other half were bussed to work eastwards at the paper factory in Gravesend. Both these factories were owned by industrialists that were fond of Sikhs as they served alongside them in the army and to this day those 2 towns (Southall and Gravesend) remain Britain's 2 largest Sikh towns. Like the Hugeonots, Jews and Irish before them they naturally moved away from that East End slum closer to those 2 areas. But I'm glad you mentioned the rubber factory because people often mistakingly think the massive Sikh population in western London is there because of it's proximity to the airport and the work opportunities there. The fact is that the foundation of this community was not the airport but factories such as Woolf's, the Margarine factory etc. Later arrivals naturally settled where these pioneers had already laid the foundation and were fortunate that it offered opportunities at the airport for work.

There were no bhatras serving in the British Army. The British were actually quite racist and elitist in their views of the different Sikh communities and had strict rules of only recruiting Jatts and, to a lesser etend, mazhabis. In fact, the British had an extremely racist and discriminatory view of bhatras as demonstrated by Denzil's Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab. In that book, Denzil describes bhatras as vagabonds and gypsies.

No, the bhatras came to the UK as peddlars, selling things like cleaning cloths and fabrics door to door up and down the country with a suitcase full of wares. As they have a strict policy, similar to Muslims, of their womenfolk not working for a living, they don't have the same tradition of working in factories etc.

Cool, nice one WLS

[DailyMail]

Great post WLS, but as a direct descendent of a subedar-major of the 23rd Sikh pioneer regiment, I can correct you that there was no "lesser extent" of holding the mazhabhi sikhs in high regard. You're indeed correct that the British did hold racist views about the ability of certain communities and their martial abilities as it were, but they held the jatts, ramdasia's (julaha) and mazhabi sikhs in high regard. The 'Empire, Faith and War' exhibition on WW1 in London this summer was testament to that. That is however, a topic for another thread.

I also am not aware of bhatra's in the world wars, but I'm open to be corrected if presented with evidence.

Good to see you back on here WLS!

[JSinghnz]

Great post WLS, but as a direct descendent of a subedar-major of the 23rd Sikh pioneer regiment, I can correct you that there was no "lesser extent" of holding the mazhabhi sikhs in high regard. You're indeed correct that the British did hold racist views about the ability of certain communities and their martial abilities as it were, but they held the jatts, ramdasia's (julaha) and mazhabi sikhs in high regard. The 'Empire, Faith and War' exhibition on WW1 in London this summer was testament to that. That is however, a topic for another thread.

I also am not aware of bhatra's in the world wars, but I'm open to be corrected if presented with evidence.

Good to see you back on here WLS!

Quite clearly the British were so successful in sowing the seeds of casteism in the Sikh slaves then that their descendants still find it

next to impossible to come out of that rubbish, backward mindset.

[JRoudh]

The Bhatras are definately Britain's oldest Sikh community but its worth mentioning that alot of the older established jatt Sikh communities in the UK also arrived by boat (my grandfather included) and the huge old and established Sikh community in Southampton is testament to that.

It's quite interesting actually because my grandfather was one of those pioneers at Woolf's rubber factory in Southall. He, along with the majority of jatt Sikhs settled in the UK between the mid 1940's and mid 50's, lived alongside the bhatra Sikhs in the East End of London around Aldgate. As Aldgate is these days very much a commercial part of the City its hard to imagine how, in those days, it was very much a slum residential area. I am told that, although they all lived in the East End half of them commuted west each day to work in Southall and the other half were bussed to work eastwards at the paper factory in Gravesend. Both these factories were owned by industrialists that were fond of Sikhs as they served alongside them in the army and to this day those 2 towns (Southall and Gravesend) remain Britain's 2 largest Sikh towns. Like the Hugeonots, Jews and Irish before them they naturally moved away from that East End slum closer to those 2 areas. But I'm glad you mentioned the rubber factory because people often mistakingly think the massive Sikh population in western London is there because of it's proximity to the airport and the work opportunities there. The fact is that the foundation of this community was not the airport but factories such as Woolf's, the Margarine factory etc. Later arrivals naturally settled where these pioneers had already laid the foundation and were fortunate that it offered opportunities at the airport for work.

There were no bhatras serving in the British Army. The British were actually quite racist and elitist in their views of the different Sikh communities and had strict rules of only recruiting Jatts and, to a lesser etend, mazhabis. In fact, the British had an extremely racist and discriminatory view of bhatras as demonstrated by Denzil's Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab. In that book, Denzil describes bhatras as vagabonds and gypsies.

No, the bhatras came to the UK as peddlars, selling things like cleaning cloths and fabrics door to door up and down the country with a suitcase full of wares. As they have a strict policy, similar to Muslims, of their womenfolk not working for a living, they don't have the same tradition of working in factories etc.

If Bhats were as that person describes in his book, how did Bhatra’s manage to become first people of Indian origin let alone Sikhs to migrate out of India to the UK and had the business acumen to start up business soon after we arrived. We single handedly pioneered immigration to UK for all Asians of the entire indian subcontinent. The Bhat community was firmly established in Britain as early as the 1920’s while other Sikh communities had not even stepped out of Punjab let alone India.

They only started to arrive about 30 years later after seeing the success of the Bhats. In the beginning we started out in sales because we came to the UK with nothing much to our name as did most new immigrants into a new country. This was only temporary though and done by the older generation of Bhats. As we saved enough money we started opening shops and businesses. Today the many Bhats have become muti millionaires and owners of wholesale warehouses particularly in aldgate in east London and all over the UK. This is a testament to the business acumen of the Bhats who came to Britian with very little other then their passport.

All this during the 1920’s The Bhatras are a hard working community who believe in working hard in line with the teachings of Sikhism. Does this sound like the kind of people who lie around and do nothing. Not only this but when we came to the UK we immediately began finding a place for the the Guru Granth sahib we brought along with us. My Grandad came to Glasgow and built the first Sikh temple and my other close relatives built the first Sikh temples in Manchester and Cardiff respectively. This was all down to the hard work of the Bhats. Who remained strong and kept their turbans in the face of hostile racism during those early days when there was us only us Bhats Sikhs in the whole of Britian as the only people of Indian origin.

As we are diverse group with many different clans making them up. This inevitably lead to the success of the Bhats varying between the different cities they settled into also. From my experience the most successful Bhats were those that migrated to Bristol, Manchester, Glasgow and Cardiff Doncaster/Leeds. The London Bhats were also very succesfull. In terms of how modern they are is also relative to which cities they went to. The Bristol/Nottingham and Leeds Bhats tend to be more modern and less strict. With girls being allowed to go to further education at a much earlier period.

Modern Day

We have now all become more modernized and all now go to universities were they have excelled. All my family of 2 sisters and 2 brothers and I all went to uni and got degrees at top Unis. What held Bhats back before was that we would not let women work or go into further education. This has now changed. This is one of the reasons that’s Bhats have now become more accepted by other Sikh groups is because we have modernized and more open to mix with other Sikh groups. Before we would not mix with other Sikhs as we deemed them to be to modernized. Ie the way they dress even the older married women all were English clothes which is not acceptable in our community.

In The Jat community many work in low skilled Jobs in factories even now. Ie in sandwich /catering factories. But you won’t find any Bhats in these Jobs.

Warrior racial ethnic origin of the Bhatras

What you have to understand is the racial makeup of the Bhatras. Bhats fought for Sikhism against the Mughals and there were many brave Bhatras who laid down their lives for Sikhism. The Bhats contain many warrior Clans such as the Roudhs like myself as well as Rathore and Taak who of Rajput ancestry, to name a few. They are known for being on the front line when fighting against the Mughals. Not all Bhats are from Brahmin heritage half if not more 70/80% come from fierce warrior lineage. Due to this the Bhats are also known for being very well built in their physiques.

The Bhats started out as Sarswat Brahmins in small numbers but as is the nature of Brahmins they are involved in religious duties such as bringing people to Sikhism. These early Bhat Brahmins were successful in converting mostly warrior Hindus who came from the Rajputs/Gujjars and other warrior groups from the Punjab to Sikhism as well as the Roudhs clan and many others. Due to this fierce racial mix of Bhatras we have a reputation of being very fanatical in our Sikh beliefs and having a great sense of honor in our community of keeping the traditions of the Khalsa. Many Bhats still keep weapons they used against the Mughals as memories of their warrior past. Many Ethnic Punjabi Hindus who lived in Amritsar were converted to Sikhism by the Bhats. Hence why many Bhats come from this area in particular. This is due to the Bhats being missionaries and bringing as many people to Sikhism.

Roudh ethnic origin

Roudh (Indo Aryan People) are Bhatra Sikhs who came to India from Rhode Island in Alexander The Great's Army During the invasion of India.

The historical evidence that supports this theory is that the Roudh surname used to be spelled Rhode (as in the Isle of Rhodes; part of the Greek archipelago) which indicates a link to our, outside of India origins, to Greece. Secondly we know that Alexander got as far as Punjab and that's where the majority of us Roudh Bhatra's lived until partition. Also many of those he brought with him in his army decided to stay in India as the journey back home was too exhaustive. Furthermore as Rhode People began to mix with the Indian People They took on some of their customs and the Orginal name Rhode. due to lack of a precise spelling later on came to be known as Roudh when they became Bhata Sikhs. Due to the unorganized times in those days no one thought it of significance to record this bit of history.

Due to this many Bhats are very light skinned as they came from aryan warrior clans.

As for that guys comments in his book.

Im pretty sure that this is down to sour grapes of the Bhats telling him were to get off. Bhats are willing to fight for their beliefs and their religion but they are not going to fight for some racist British people who are going to use and exploit them for their own personal gain.

The British were well known for their divide and rule tactics used on the Punjabis hence his comments to try and divide Sikhs comes as no surprise. It benefited them to keep the Punjabis divided.

[JagsawSingh]

In The Jat community many work in low skilled Jobs in factories even now. Ie in sandwich /catering factories. But you won’t find any Bhats in these Jobs.

Its the Sikh work ethic Roudh, and it is what differentiates us from the Muslims. It is also, in many ways, what, for the past 100 years or so, marked the Bhatras out as being very different from the other Sikh groups. That work ethic and the long held Punjabi female spirit of hard physical work had, up until now, been sorely lacking among the Bhatras. It is worth us remembering at this point, the letter Alexander the Great sent home to his mother in Greece when he reached Punjab. His letter stated that it was unlike any land he had attempted to conquer before as the Punjabi women would work the fields as much as the men. You see, my friend, in this regard Sikhi is similar to Calvanism in that most Sikhs, especially the jatts, believe that hard work is a route to salvation.

I myself am studying for my doctorate but earn my keep by working hard physical low paid manual labour in warehouses for minimum wage. It is part of my psyche, as a Sikh, to do that. I will happily clean toilets too. Its an honest living.

So, in that regard, one should at this point refer back to that book by Denzil you mentioned a number of times in your last post. According to The Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and British historians of British India, Bhatras were not considered ethnic Punjabi and their heritage was attributed to central India, specifically Uttar Pradesh. Those historians state that of all the Sikh communities the Bhatras are the only ones that were not native to the Punjab and only entered the Punjab after embracing Sikhism given Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji's travels in central and southern India. I'm not saying they're right in their assessment but you have to admit it does somewhat explain the missing inherent Punjabi / Sikh spirit of gender equality and calvanist work ethic.

[JRoudh]

I think you might be on the wrong side of a rolling pin( Velna) if you said that to a Bhatra woman. lol

Bhat women did not work,not because they did not believe in hard work ethic. It was because they were banned from working by Bhatra males as a form of protecting them. Bhats are very protective of their women. Hence this is not the fault of the Bhat women. Infact Bhat women worked very hard and have a very strong work ethic but only in the environment of the family businesses.

As Bhats mainly started out as self employed running business and shops there was no need for Bhat girls to work in factories as they already had a job in their family shops were they worked very hard.

This is why you did not see large scale Sikh Bhat women working in the factories as there was simply no need for it back then. Now that Bhats have now started moving out of self employed businesses. Bhat women are now given the freedom to work and study as they wish.

I am not sure what Bhats you have come across in the UK but most of my relatives going back from the first generation that setlled in the UK worked, worked and worked all the lifes from the day we stepped foot on english soil. Wether this be in factories/railyway or other waged jobs. Not all Bhats worked in the self employed businesses. Many also worked in the factories like other Sikh communities. one of my relatives worked for Yorkshire railway for 40 years as an engineer others worked for other well know industries. infact I dont know one relative of mine in the last 100 years that has not worked. So I find your post very offensive and ignorant to all the hard working Bhat Sikh community.

As I already mentioned Bhat Sikhs are ethicaly Punjabi. Most of the Bhats are made up of Rajputs and other native Punjabi warrior clans. This is why our surnames are not of south Indian origin. Can you explain that? If we was from south India we would not be into Nihang traditions and sword fighting. We would all be dal eating vegetarians. But the Bhats are known for chopping up Goats like the Nihangs. We are in essence the real, authentic and original Punjabis. Other Sikhs groups are the new commers hence why we kept our turbans long after we came here while others removed them. As I said the Bhats are a diverse group made up of many ethnic native Punjabis. These are people lived in Punjab way before the Jats or other communities arrived. The only reason Bhatras dont have a higher public profile is because the Jat is the majority in Punjab.

Bhatras also speak authentic Punjabi. South Indians are also usually tame and soft people. Bhatras are not like that. They are very strong willed aggressive and steadfast in their beliefs.

[JagsawSingh]

If we was from south India. We would not be into Nihang traditions and sword fighting. We would all be dal eating vegetarians. But the Bhats are known for chopping up Goats like the Nihangs. We are in essence the real, authentic and original Punjabis.

Your traditions Roudh stem more from the couple of hundred years the Bhatra Sikh community spent living alongside a largely Mulsim population in the Sialkot area of Punjab (Pakistan). I actually salute the Bhatras for this but what they did, whilst being a tiny minority surrounded by a massive muslim majority, was to go that extra mile to not only assert their 'Sikhness' but also blatantly and positively do the things that Muslims could not do...such as eating copious amounts of jatka meat. On the negative side though, they did pick up the muslim habit of seeing their respectve faiths for males only and not fully embracing the gender equality and gender freedom the other Sikh groups practiced.

However, having said all that, we must all remember that the year is now 2014 and none of us are living in Sialkot or any other area of what is now Pakistan and so none of us need to do things just to rub it in the faces of muslims.. Now, is the time to educate ourselves about what Sikhi really is, and real Sikhi is not about murdering and then eating like cannibals god's animals.

Going back to the earlier point we discussing though, I can assure you that the origin of the Bhatras does indeed lie in central India (Uttar Pradesh and below). Rather than deny that fact I feel Bhatras like yourself should embrace that truth and be proud of it because you came to the Punjab as some of the first Sikhs as it were. Many centuries before most of us your people saw the light that Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji shone and, following from his teachings to you whilst on his travels in south and central India, your people came to the Punjab as Sikhs and relayed that truth to the Punjabis.