If Sikhs Were Forced To Marry Gay Couples?

[S4NGH]

Yeah, you can only tell back then when the married couple wouldn't have a baby and they've been married for 2+ years lol. There was no way to tell besides that.

They'd seek cures obviously after marriage since that's when they'd find out.

Right ok so thats back then. We're living today unless your suggesting sikhi is outdated?

so my question was, is anand karaj not for people with infertility problems?

[S4NGH]

Yeah, I highly doubt anyone who is young and ready to get married knows if they are fertile or not. Do you know if you are fertile? Anything can change! Your fertility is obviously given to you if you are a sacha bhagat of Sri Vaheguru ji. To even think that you think those people can't even get fertile is such a foolish thought. Obviously, you can do Sri Ardas Sahib for fertility, so why not? I have full sharda in my Sri Gurudev.

Why would you need someone to go on a journey with you for dharm?? Isn't that why we have the sadhsangat?

Many young or old people due to illness or whatever medical reason are infertile. Sometimes as a result of an illness or trauma. So people obviously would know.

Erm hitler was fertile. Gandhi was fertile. Were the sachay bhagat?

I didnt say i think such a thing.

why wouldnt you? Anand karaj is a spiritual journey. Your partner can help you progress spiritually. You cant possibly have half of your life experiences with the sadhsangat which youd experience with your LIFE partner. To assume that marriage is just about sex and reproduction is very shallow. Dim. Ignorant.

[MisterrSingh]

I want to know the location of this utopian, mythical sadhsangat that has my best intentions at heart and is always there for me when I need their support, and can be trusted to be discrete at all times whilst I share with them my deepest and most personal issues and dilemmas.

Does that sound like apne to you at all, lol? One loose word in the wrong ear and your private business will be all around town before you've even reached your own doorstep!

[S4NGH]

Karma from your past life play a major role in (+this life) your fertility as well, but if you are infertile then you can change karma by doing bhagti. Of course, I am talking about the view which is applied to the medieval days of our Sri Gurus, as if anyone really knew they were infertile back then. Yeah okay, what other way can you have a santan if you don't get married? Obviously children would be the reason for marriage since they would be future parcharaks and teach dharam. We have children so we can teach them dharam, so dharam would flourish and bhalla would happen to everyone including the parents for giving birth to such saints. The sadhsangat is who we share our spiritual journey with, infact, it has more faida to do bhagti with them instead of just your spouse, which clearly shows that the sadhsangat is who you share your spiritual journey with. Now if something supernatural happens, you'd ask the opinion of the sadhsangat and take them more seriously than your layperson spouse right? Just goes to show the sadhsangat is who we go to when it comes to our spiritual goals.

Ok i see where your coming from now, though i strongly disagree with your opinion.

Firstly, the time of the Gurus was in the past, the time is now and the future is theirs. It has always been their time. That is what makes sikhi so different to the other faiths which relate to the time they were established. In my opinion, theyre outdated. But thats a whole different discussion.

You can have a "santan" any way you like. Adopt a child. Theres currently 150million orphans out there. Plenty of santan for the 30million sikhs out there. Unfortunately we're just too narrow minded. We'd rather produce more children when there are already enough here.

In regards to the whole sadhsangat debate, i think you and I live in two very different worlds. When was the last time you came across such a sadhsangat?

[S4NGH]

Yeah, so the main goal of marriage is to give birth to a santan right? So when you adopt a santan what is the need to get married since you have already met your goal of a santan without having intercourse, since marrying is to reproduce children?? Since you already met the easy goal, why get married since that was the goal of marriage? I come across the sadhsangat everytime I go to the Sri Gurdwara.

NO! Jeez luise dude. The main goal of marriage is NOT to reproduce. Please dont make me repeat that again. Thanks.

Read my previous responses for an answer to "what is the need to get married if you've met your goal of acquiring a santan?".

I didnt ask when do you come across the sadhsangat. I asked, where do you come across such a sadhsangat with which you can share all your intimate issues etc. <please dont answer that. Lets stick to topic

[S4NGH]

I think I already did answer that. If not, can you give me the spasht question again which you think I haven't answered yet?

never mind preet. As i said, lets stick to topic

[Kira]

I had a look at the Sikh lavan (if thats how you spell it). There's nothing there that says the point of the marriage is to reproduce, the point of the marriage is to get closer to god. 2 souls residing in one body ya know. A Santan isn't restricted by biology, an adopted son is just as good as a biological one. It's insulting to say one is better than the other.

[Kira]

Obviously, laavan, coming from a dharmic religion, would emphasize on being dharmic, and from that the next generation of children would obliged to be dharmic as well so that the santan can teach dharm too.

An adopted child can also adopt the religion of his new parents, Sikhism is a universal universal religion afterall, confining it to only being dharmic is somewhat odd.

Are you saying a person who isn't married can't go more dharmic rather than the married people? There are many people who stay single and are more dharmic than some married people (in our religion).

Obviously I'm not saying that.

You can have kalyan while being single as well. & what is the point to get married if you adopted a child??

You're being a tad narrow minded here like It says in the lavan the whole point is to find a companion who can also join your journey to god, sure this can be done alone, but Guru sahib put an emphasis on finding god within the confines of your own home/community, Marriage is an integral part of that . Reproduction is utterly meaningless, your child could easily be swayed by bad sangat to abandon Sikhi.

As for your second point, giving an orphaned child a home is an extremely noble thing to do. If you think it's horrible and atrocious then good for you, but giving a small child who has no one a home and then raising them as your own. That there is one heck of a good deed. Waheguru's light is alive in them too.

Since you have already met the goal of a santan through marriage, why would you still get married? What can you do in a wedlock that you can't do if single? That is reproducing a santan! That is why we get married of course.

Again if you read the Lavan they tell you otherwise. You don't need to have a child, that's not your goal in life. You're goal in life is to join Akal Purkh Waheguru ji. The purpose of marriage IS finding someone who has the same mission and can also join you in this quest. This is a concept accepted almost universally in our faith (at-least all the Sikhi sites are saying this).

. Are you pro gay marriage in Sikhi?

Tricky question to be fair. I'm entirely not sure if I am or not. I pray Waheguru will guide me to the truth.

The reason im bothering to respond to things like this is purely because when it comes to homosexuality Punjabi (and indian people in general) are very ignorant of it at times. NOt all mind you, but a vast number. They enter a frenzy of hate and pure anger that would make even Lions flee. In most cases they treat it like a disease, a curse, the person involved is evil and almost hinting in extreme cases should die. I find it sad, even comical at times as most of them have probably never met a gay person before.

Why would a gay person even want to marry another gay person, so they can take advantage of kaam and moh while being 'dharmic'?? That is a silly reason.

You've clearly not met a gay person here haha. A gay person isn't filled with lust. That's a stupid myth. They desire men (or in the case of lesbians woman) the same way a heterosexual would desire the opposite sex. By saying their trying to take advantage of Kaam and moh while being "dharmic" you need to accept the same is true for heterosexual people.

Or are Heterosexual people just filled with such love and devotion that they could never look at a man/woman in such a way :laugh2:

[Kira]

3I don't deny that! But having children is also an huge factor in that.

A huge factor but not the biggest factor.

Do you really think people adopted children back then as much as they do now? I don't think so, unless they wanted them to be servents of course.

I'm talking about now, when child protection does exist.

If we don't have reproduction, our religion will end up just like Jaina even though it is one of the oldest religions look at their population, it's even less than Sikhi.

So in other words you would rather have a population of watered down sikhs than a small collective of actual Sikhs? take a good look around at our culture, its Punjabi first Sikhi then, its more of a trend that most teens seem to follow now. Put on some khanda, a nice sticker to support Khalistan and vola we're sikhs. The converts from the west are doing far better than we are, They seem to be much more in tune with Sikhi than some of our own members.

Reproduction isn't the only way Sikhi can survive.

Most people want to have their own santan, their own blood as a vansh(which doesn't bother me), and that is only possible through straight marriage.

So where does artificial insemination and even surrogate mothers fall in this? Neither of them are "natural" means of conception in the sense that it's not something that can be done on a whim. Gay couples are now perfectly able to have kids, albeit only containing half their genetic code but genes aren't everything.

4That goal can be met without marriage too, so what is the need when you have a sadhsangat??

yes it can, but again you're not seeing the bigger picture. The whole concept of marriage is to MAKE IT EASIER. Imagine having someone there with you at all times, who can keep you on the right path, help you control your vices and be your life companion till death. 2 bodies with just one soul. Feel free to remain single all your life if you wish, there is nothing wrong with that. But those kind of things are frowned upon in Indian culture. Not so much in the west, but in indian culture. The whole point of marriage is to make your life easier, a sort of companion who shares the same goal as you. You can argue all you want, but the Lavan are clear.

It will just create more moh and kaam if you aren't getting married for a santan, since you can get spiritual guidance from someone other than your equally novice spouse.

It isn't just spiritual guidance. Dear god. Our Spiritual guide is Guru Granth Sahib ji, the shabad guru. No one else. Your Spouse is your companion, someone who's attempting the same thing as you, you're helping one another get there by fighting the 5 vices, providing good sangat with the blessing of Maharaj.

5I have many gay friends that I grew up with, most of them are goray and yes they somewhat do have a lot of lust. They spend most of their time admiring men, but they are also intellectually stable nonetheless.

No offence but it's pretty clear you have a sigma against homosexuals in general. They say they have a lot of lust but I guess that must mean that your heterosexual friends don't. I bet they never looked at guys or girls with lust or even feel emotions like that. I bet all your heterosexual friends were men of god who never did anything lustful.

This may come as a shock to you but the amount of lust a gay person has is the same as a heterosexual would have. You should stop looking at how the media and society portray them and maybe look at them as equals and people. It's pretty clear you look down on them.

They are taking advantage of kaam, since the goal of marriage is having a santan,

Once again the Lavan prove you wrong,

since EVERYTHING else can be completed from outside the wedlock besides having your own santan,

Someone forgot their biology. You can have children without being married. I take it you know about the birds and the bees. The Point of marriage is to provide sanctity for the children who are born into it. If the point of marriage was purely to produce an heir to carry on the legacy then why wasn't it brought up in the lavan. Why isn't it mentioned there?

A while back you claimed that by asking Waheguru for children (for those who are infertile) even infertile couples can get married. But that's never the case, I guess that means their marriage was pointless.

You can sit here and keep telling yourself marriage is only for kids. But the Lavan in Gurbani say a different thing. But of course, you're opinion is all that matters.

adoption is great too, but most people want their own kids. Lol, I'm talking about a perfect scenario, not about random people.

The only thing perfect in this world is Gurbani. Those who can't have children adopt, even after marriage. So we may as well dissolve their marriage as it was a massive fail since they couldn't have children.

[Kira]

It is one of the biggest factors.

So love of god isn't?

I'm talking about the world where our religion was started.

I was referring to present day times. I think we're confused on this.

Who says the population would be watered down? It can be equally as good Why would someone think bad, about their own religion? Remember, I'm talking about couples who marry to give their children dharma and to pass it down to others. Artificial insemination is besharam, only a pati patni couple can do that when it comes to their own blood. If a persons goal is that high to have their own children why don't they just get married, or if that doesn't matter why don't they just adopt a child? Silly eh?

How is it "besharam" lol. 2 people who are both infertile are now given the chance to have children. Only they get either sperm or egg donated by someone else. I guess by your logic any form of transplant is besharam. Guru Har-Rai Sahib ji ran a medicine store where some of the rarest herbs could be purchased. He was instrumental in curing the Mughal prince of an ailment that was befalling him. All Artificial insemination is, is that it is a progression of science to cure infertility. You need to quit living in the 19th century my friend.

I would never force anyone to join or subjugate to a religion lol. Even my own children should I force to have them. My parents never forced me into Sikhi, I grew to love by myself. You can have kids to pass on Sikhi to them but really it's all down to them. By your standards marriage is a fail if the child decides to become an atheist/Muslim/christian etc

That's odd considering most people at that time lived with their parents and siblings, now if someone doesn't have that sahayat of course get married and also achieve a santan, or they can go seek the sadhsangat or live as a sevak and dedicate their life to a particular local Sri Gurdwara? Considering the goal of that person would be to only be dharmic, since nothing else matters.

I'd look for a facepalm button but I would really never find one to express how quickly you overlooked what I wrote.

" Imagine having someone there with you at all times"

I hope to god you realize that you're not going to in a gurudwara at night unless you're a granthi.Why are you still arguing this, Guru Sahib's already made it abundantly clear what the purpose of the marriage is. Do you know better than Guru Sahib?

5What's the need of a companion when Sri Vaheguru is Sri Nirguna ParBrahman enshrined in our hearts and in other lives? We are never alone, then again, why do we need sahayat, what we recieve from them are bandhans which we are supposed to try and destroy.

let me direct your attention to the Lavan.

Har doojrree laav Satgur purkh Milaya balram jeo. Nirbhao bhey mun hoey Haomay meil gaviya balram jeo. Nirmal bhao paya Har goon gaya Har vekheh Ram hadooreh. Har aatam Ram pasarial Suami Sarab rihya bharpooray Antar bahar Har Prabh eko Mil Har jan mangal gaaeh Jan Nanak dooji laav chlaaee Unhudh Sabad vajaeh. || 2 ||

Comes the second nuptial round. And the Lord has made you to meet the True Guru. With your heart bound by the fear of the Fearless God. All sense of pride has been washed from the mind. Knowing the fear of God and singing His praises, You behold His presence before you. God, the Lord Master is the soul of the creation; He pervades everywhere and fills all places with His Being. Know then that there is One God, within us and without. 17 And His songs of rejoicing are heard in the company of His servants. Nanak proclaims, that in this second nuptial round, the Divine Music is heard

The Point of the Spouse is a permanent Sadh Sangat.

Yeah, lust goes both ways, but you should stop trying to make all gays sound like angels who don't do anything wrong. Honestly, anyone can be bisexual to an extent, theres no excuses. Sexuality based on another humans someones body is just petty, that's why I am saying they can get married and live normal lives instead of the current a-dharmic ones which consists of having sexual partner(s), now if they don't have those it's fine.

I've not said their angels lol. So far you've branded them lustful sinners who spend all their time ogling others. It's pretty funny how so far you've said.

1) Gays are lustful

2) gays have sexual partners (s)

3) they spend all their time ogling people.

All you've done is proven beyond a doubt being gay is no different than being heterosexual. Good work on that.

You should really read up a bit about the Kinsey Scale and sexuality in general. I don't mean this in a disrespecting way but your views on homosexuals and sexuality in general are extremely outdated. The Kinsey Scale is basically a spectrum on which everyone falls. Ranging from exclusively homosexual to bisexual and then to heterosexual.

No they haven't!! They just have stuff added that I haven't addressed yet.

What sort of stuff lol. So far you've stated that the marriage union is for children. But the Lavan explicitly state it's to help you get closer to god. The stuff in them hasn't changed, Gurbani in this context is crystal clear. Guru Sahib defined what a marriage is (union of 2 souls) and what the goal of a successful marriage is (getting closer to Waheguru).

9Yeah, and that is BESHARAM to have children without marriage.

What about rape then lol. I already stated that 2 people laying together is frowned upon in society but you said everything but children can't be done without marriage. We don't even need to have sex to have children now. Artificial insemination takes care of that too. And even better it doesn't involve sex, so there is no lust whatsoever.

Yeah, and that's what the sadhsangat has enshrined into their Buddhis.

So am I right in assuming that people who fail to conceive have failed in their wedding vows by your logic.

Uhh okay then, I'm sure everyone has a different amount of kaam in them. Do you really think a layperson can have the same amount of lust as a Gyani ji? I don't think so!!! Nobody dharmic has kaam urges, since they know nothing good will come out of it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-20445350

Even Gyani have Kaam lol. We all have the same exposure to Kaam, we all have the same means to combat it. A person without Kaam is rare to find. You're misapplying Kaam in a marriage. It shouldn't even be there. It does not exist in a real marriage. In a person it can't exist. Hetero,bi or even gay they all have the same chance to get rid of Kaam. They are all equally exposed to Kaam. implying that one sexual orientation is less Kaam than another is like me implying that black people are dumber than asians.