If Sikhs Were Forced To Marry Gay Couples?

[MisterrSingh]

[Singhni MiriPiri]

1It is one of the biggest factors.

2I'm talking about the world where our religion was started.

3Who says the population would be watered down? It can be equally as good Why would someone think bad, about their own religion? Remember, I'm talking about couples who marry to give their children dharma and to pass it down to others. Artificial insemination is besharam, only a pati patni couple can do that when it comes to their own blood. If a persons goal is that high to have their own children why don't they just get married, or if that doesn't matter why don't they just adopt a child? Silly eh?

4That's odd considering most people at that time lived with their parents and siblings, now if someone doesn't have that sahayat of course get married and also achieve a santan, or they can go seek the sadhsangat or live as a sevak and dedicate their life to a particular local Sri Gurdwara? Considering the goal of that person would be to only be dharmic, since nothing else matters.

5What's the need of a companion when Sri Vaheguru is Sri Nirguna ParBrahman enshrined in our hearts and in other lives? We are never alone, then again, why do we need sahayat, what we recieve from them are bandhans which we are supposed to try and destroy.

6Yeah, lust goes both ways, but you should stop trying to make all gays sound like angels who don't do anything wrong. Honestly, anyone can be bisexual to an extent, theres no excuses. Sexuality based on another humans someones body is just petty, that's why I am saying they can get married and live normal lives instead of the current a-dharmic ones which consists of having sexual partner(s), now if they don't have those it's fine.

7Uhh okay then, I'm sure everyone has a different amount of kaam in them. Do you really think a layperson can have the same amount of lust as a Gyani ji? I don't think so!!! Nobody dharmic has kaam urges, since they know nothing good will come out of it.

8No they haven't!! They just have stuff added that I haven't addressed yet.

9Yeah, and that is BESHARAM to have children without marriage.

10Yeah, and that's what the sadhsangat has enshrined into their Buddhis.

Preeet, your comments astonish me and actually make me laugh sometimes. You seem to use the ‘karam’ word alot without even being considerate towards people in a different situation than yourself. Like you said earlier that fertility is given to you if you are a sachay bhagat of Vaheguru. So that would mean infertile people are less worthy people? Is that how you would speak to people? If you do, please don’t it is rude.

Another thing is that you have a strange view about how pure and perfect the sikh sangat is. I’m sorry to tell you but they are (all) not because they are humans with flaws and are trying to reach Guru Sahibs perfection which they probably would never achieve or at least in a very very long time.

And if you think gay people have more kaam then straight people then you need to spend more time with straight men to know what they really think. Straight people can have just the same, if not more kaam than a gay person. If anyone thinks being gay is just purely kaam then I can only imagine they themselves must have a lot of kaam because they cannot see anything beyond a sexual relationship. Sometimes it is an emotional connection someone may feel to another, not always kaam.

[Kira]

Are you serious..? You are having a child for the love of Sri Vaheguru to spread his dharm to other people who are willing to learn!!!

If you actually think Children are the only way to spread Sikhi then you are honestly one narrow minded individual.

2Well I was referring to the previous medieval days.

And I was referring to modern day times.

3lol you can't compare insemination to an herb! Why don't they just adopt if they are that stressed? Or do they suffer from ahankar and want to only have their blood vansh?

Why can't I? Guru Har Rai Sahib built medicinal and research facilities because he saw the need to provide a source of modern medicine for People, All of our Guurus were forward thinking, if modern medicine bothers you so much then go empty your cabinet, if you ever lose a limb feel free to sit there and ignore medical treatment. If you think artificial Insemination if bad then you may as well say blood transfusions, transplants are equally as bad.

I'm going to quote something you just said here.

adoption is great too, but most people want their own kids

So now you're changing you're words :nono: and denying people a chance to have their own children as well.

4Nobody is alone in this duniya, Sri Nirguna ParBrahmeshwar is everywhere with us in multiple forms, and we have Gurbani so how are we really alone? I don't think anyone actually lived alone before too, (even though it can happen) most people lived in family environments like how our Sri Gurus said grishti is good. That doesn't really mean getting married.. you can live with your parents or siblings too.

And once again the Lavan speak of how together as spouses you can beat any form of maya,evil that may tempt you. But of course you know more than Guru Granth Sahib ji.

5That's so obvi, considering this dharm is religous that's why they get married so they can have their own children so the santan could be the future people to do parchar etc. What's the point of getting married if you don't have kids via adoption or your own..? When one spouse dies then what? One person is left alone, thne what are you going to say, that they should get remarried? I think now. That is why we have the sadhsangat. Single people can experience things the same way as married people. Are you trying to make gay Sri Anand Karaj a thing? Makes no sense.

Once again you lack of actual knowledge is showing. remarriage is permitted in Sikhism. Lavan say the point of marriage is to get closer to god, but Great guru Preet knows better than Parbrahmgiani Guru Granth sahib ji.

6Lol, whatever person I find that identifies themselves as 'gay' OR 'straight' means that they haven't controlled their kaam shakti and got rid of it. So is someone that is really bound to kaam a dharmic person? I think not. The main goal is to get rid of the 5 dukhs including that one that implies to sexual and other lusts such as wealth etc etc. Again, I'm talking about dharmic people, not laypersons!!!!!!!!

what's so wrong wiht those labels? that's like someone saying my preference of ice cream is Chocolate or vanilla. I guess they've not beaten moh then. Sexual attraction AND lust are different things. Look at the definitions for crying out loud.

Lust is an obsession for sex or a STRONG DESIRE for Sex. You can be straight and have no lust.

7Yeah 2 souls that can get to Sri Vaheguru is a point, but they also need to have a santan, that's why our Sri Gurus gift people who are childless with children boons. It isn't a new thing. If you are dharmic you WILL have your own santan. There is no way to be infertile like that.

No they don't need to have a Santan. I've met so many spiritual people, some of them are the kindest and most gentle souls in the world but one of them couldn't conceive. I guess that must mean their not dharmic.

8No, since they can adopt Other than that, they may have not done specific bhagti for a santan. My Sri Vaheguru can do anything, and if you think they cannot even bless child boons you are mistaken deeply!!!

lol what? Waheguru can do anything. You know just because there wasn't some miracle where a massive amount of lights go off an the woman suddnely can conceive doesn't mean there wasn't a blessing of Waheguru. His blessing comes in many forms, IVF, artificial insemination are all due to his kirpa too.

9Oh come on, those are fake peoples. There alot of people who don't have kaam even if they aren't dharmic. I myself feel I have no lust for any kaam and think I am fine the way I am and I have Sri Vaheguru to guide me through the sadhsangat better than any spouse can.

You're really acting daft arern't you. I don't believe you're this myopic. I may be wrong. But I never EVER said that a Spouse is a GUIDE. I said he is a COMPANION. Someone who TAKES PART in everything Sikhi you do, someone to assist you in helping beat Maya,the evils. I dont see why you keep denying Guru Granth Sahib ji's words.

Sad point of the matter is Guru Granth Sahib Ji says one thing and it is universally accepted. But the Reverend Guru Preet doesn't accept that and insist it's another because you're upbringing is saying something else.

If Children were the means of Waheguru to pass on the faith then why did Bab Sri Chand rebell against Guru Nanak Dev ji. Why did Ram Rai change Gurbani while Guru har-Rai ji told him to remain true. Why did Prithi Chand scheme and lie against his own father.

Are you now going to say that it was all because of Bad Karma, that our Guru Sahib had bad karma?

[Singhni MiriPiri]

Nobody is less worthy, they have simply recieved their karma from their past birth to now and they are suffering now from it. What I am saying is with bhagti anything can happen, and all of your nonharmful manokamnas can be fulfilled. You simply don't have sharda for them, can you tell me if don't do any paaps? I don't think so. Just goes to show what can we expect from you to know when you yourself aren't perfected yet. I think people who identify themselves as gay or straight can have the same amount of kaam, but obviously some people have more kaam regardless of the preference. But people who identify themselves as gay or straight is just a clue that they haven't beat their kaam shakti yet through bhagti.

I don't care if it is their karma. To tell someone it is their karma that they are suffering from is like saying it's your fault. And in the end, you don't know Vaheguru's plan, maybe it is his way of taking care of them. Vaheguru can take anyone's fertility away within a second, so you should be more careful about how you speak because you may be hurting others.

I have respect for anyone who is a good person; I do not care if someone is masked as a sikh. I judge people by their good actions, not by the way they look. No one will disclose their paap to you, so you really need to stop deluding yourself that anyone dressed as a sikh is a saint.

So with your mentality, I would say anyone who doesn't identify themselves as straight/gay must have the biggest kaam because they can be attracted to anyone. Identifying yourself as gay or straight means nothing, it is just a label. I said earlier one may feel an emotional connection to the opposite/same gender hence the reason they may identify themselves as straight/gay so it doesn’t always necessarily involve kaam.

[Kira]

1How else would it spread? If there is no santan this religion will go extinct since nobody will do parchar etc. Of course people will convert, but to what? To a religion that has been extinct from the people of it's country? The same halat would come as the Greek religion of today where most people who believe in it are outsiders in wicca etc.

Through love and devotion? like how our guru's started the religion perhaps? Children are important they're not The most important factor.

3Are you talking about the artificial ensemination about a straight couple (but with the same male dna and the females?), if so it's fine, my mistake for misunderstanding if so.

In general for anyone who wishes to conceive.

4They can have their own children through Sri Anand Karaj, but outside of that it isn't possible to have your own blood child in a sanskari way.

And once again you point out that infertile couples are horrible and should have their marriage dissolved.

5lol thanks, I'm flattered The sadhsangat is exactly what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji teaches. Go ahead and stay in dusht sangat if you'd like. Just goes to show you may learn a thing or two then instead of making stuff up.

The Guru Sahib made it clear. you're in denial. I am not. What have I made up. Here actually read the Gurbani for a change.

http://user47011.vs.easily.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Lavan-Hymns.pdf

Point me to where it says that we need to have children to pass on Sikhi and that is the goal of the marriage.

6Remarriage is seen as betrayal, since you have chosen only that partner. Unless that partner says go for it, it is bad.

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/sikhism-marriage-and-divorce.26267/

Once again Sikhi says otherwise. But please by all means keep acting like you know better than Guru sahib..

7Lust can be applied to wanting anything, not just sexual stuff.

Good I'm glad you've said something sensible so far.

8Yeah why don't they adopt then? Or maybe they just CHOSE not to have children, who said that they were infertile? Ofcourse not all fertile people want children.

A while ago you said the ideal scenario would be to have your own kids? So now you're saying they should adopt and give up on Waheguru blessing them with a child? going back on your words already Preet ji :D

9I'm not talking about that blessing form If it was really a blessing why didn't exist back then? Since when are all these new blessings being born lol. As if that would make any sense to you.

Because Science and Technology wasn't advanced back then? Guru Sahib can cure diseases, but I guess that means we should stop seeing doctors?

10Sri Vaheguru is capable of being our companion. He should be our only mitra since everyone else will leave us. What can you expect from a spouse when most of them are bound to the 5 dukhs, that's why you accept Sri Vaheguru as our only swami.

Indeed you do, however the option of marriage is to provide a physical companion who can help you defeat the physical evils that confront you. once again the lavan are clear but you consider yourself a Brahmgiani.

Also please address my point about the Guru Sahib's children. Or are you saying our Guru sahib had bad karma?

[Singhni MiriPiri]

It is their fault,nothing will make sense to you until you realize everything works by the karmic laws. Yeah obviously Sri Vaheguru maharaj can take our fertility away DUE to our karma. What we have recieved we would have recieved for sure in any way, and same goes for our future. They're a saint in my eyes, I see Sri Vaheguru in them since they have accepted their swaroop. I see Sri Vaheguru in everyone actually, but obviously I will be towards my own dharm. What will we do with these labels? How would they help us in our spiritual endeavors? They won't. That's why I am saying a true dharmic person wouldn't have these labels because they have already overcome kaam and it means nothing to them. If someone treasures their straight or gay label that just shows they have moh for it and haven't overcome that passion.

Of course everything works by karma, I didn’t deny that. But you cannot excuse how revoltingly you speak. Here is a quote from another thread regarding people who have been brutally murdered:

Those people aren't as innocent either just so you know. According to their karma they have done something to deserve those deeds. Now even if that happened with me, I would have nobody to blame but myself.

So if a child was brutally murdered, would you say they deserved it? Or that they weren’t so innocent? Is this how you learn to speak from your true sikh sangat.

You are really fooled by people’s appearance. You need to spend more time with people to really know what they are actually like.

[Kira]

Of course everything works by karma, I didn’t deny that. But you cannot excuse how revoltingly you speak. Here is a quote from another thread regarding people who have been brutally murdered:

So if a child was brutally murdered, would you say they deserved it? Or that they weren’t so innocent? Is this how you learn to speak from your true sikh sangat.

You are really fooled by people’s appearance. You need to spend more time with people to really know what they are actually like.

No Point debating about it Benji. She/he supports the caste system and refuses to accept what was written in Gurbani because it contradicts what he/she wants it say.

[Singhni MiriPiri]

No Point debating about it Benji. She/he supports the caste system and refuses to accept what was written in Gurbani because it contradicts what he/she wants it say.

Ok, I will stop debating with her but please change your avatar picture back to code geass, this one is scaring me

[Kira]

Ok, I will stop debating with her but please change your avatar picture back to code geass, this one is scaring me

the fact that you know that was code geass has put a smile on my face but sure.

[Kira]

Love and devotion? I think that needs a spark of course

The Spark is the truth.

Lol no, whenever they are married they should stick together in that bandhan that they have created no matter what, if they are infertile they can do more bhagti and Sri Vaheguru Parameshwar can bless them at any moment they like! You just agreed in another post that you said santan was a part of the maksat in marriage, did you not??

I said it's a factor but not the most important factor. As the Lavan said getting close to god = most important above all else. So basically you're advocating what Christian Scientists believe, something our Gurus themselves (even Guru Nanak) criticized. God's blessing comes in many forms, insemination, IVF, adoption, anything.

if they do not care if the kid is their own blood or whatever why don't they adopt??

You just said that people can get children from Waheguru. You tell me why they should give up on waheguru blessing them since that was your first message.

ur Sri Gurus cured people with bhagti's shakti! Most likely not by some advil lol. Our Sri Gurus are so powerful, they cured people with just putting a danda on someones head (smallpox cure), now does that look scientifically acceptable to you?

Please don't use the word "science" without actually knowing what it means. Science is the study of the physical realm, it's based around the Scientific process which involves hypothesis, testing,re-testing and then finally considering something as a "scientific fact" .

Religion and god are far beyond those realms, Science has never claimed to know all the answers. But even our Guru Sahib saw them as tools to dispel ignorance, just look up Guru Nanak dev ji's thoughts on Indian Culture back then, on how Guru Har Rai ji had multiple physicians working in his hospitals. If you're going to argue that the Guru's weren't interested in Science and considered it useless then History and Gurbani will prove you wrong.

you dumb or something, our Sri Gurus children probably had amazing bhagti from their past lives and were able to become a santan in our Sri Guru's home, and of course any way they left earth they no doubt reached Sri Sach Khand instantly. So, it would be a great mistake to say that.

So they had amazing Karam to be born into Guru Sahib's household. But they rebelled against their divine fathers? Since you don't apparently like looking at History or books in general let me educate you on how serious some of these acts were. One of Guru Angad Dev Ji's son kicked Guru Amar das ji, he physically assaulted Guru sahib. Prithi chand made Guru Arjun dev ji's succession to Guruship hard. He also tried to have guru hargobind sahib ji killed. Ram Rai Changed Gurbani to impress the Emperor. Guru har Rai ji told him to never return again.

Are you going to say that it was Guru Sahib's Karam that their children were pushed to do such acts?

You've mentioned Karam so many times but you refuse to even see what Guru Sahib says about it.