Basics Of Sikhi - Anand Karaj (Addressing The Controversy)

[JagsawSingh 860]

^ Him....DTF.. Blame him !!!

This week, when this issue is discussed to death in the media and radio etc and the whole world sees us Sikhs as racist intolerants remember how it was DTF that deliberately ensured the debate the media would get our side of the story from was rigged in such a way that our simple side of the story was not allowed to be articulated....i.e the media would never hear it. Remember the part DTF had in that.

Seriously now DTF, re-read this whole thread from beginning to end. Its clear you've been on some personal mission to ensure Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal win the argument. I don't know what your motive for that has been, it could be a personal family matter it could be political....but know this: This debate could have armed us Sikhs in the upcoming media and radio debates or it could have armed Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal. You've gone out of your way here to quickly supress all sides of the Sikh's story and arm Sunny and Bobby. I know what you're up to here.

[Balkaar 1,340]

Such a simple issue. So easy to explain to the mainstream media.

But here we are. 12 pages long (so far) and all we've done is confused the media. They'll come away from this still not understanding our very basic easy to understand point and so they'll go to Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction for an explanation and they will get one there.

Are we really that easy to manipulate ?

I mean think about it: It started with mainstream media articles about us protecting the honour of Guru ji in the Gurdwara, the media distorted it in order to portray us as racists and intolerants who don't want and won't allow mixed marriages full stop and then, before you know it the media - Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction have got us wrapped round their finger so much and so easily they've got us making messages in this debate where we articulate that we don't like our girls marrying white and black fellas. i.e the exact same kind of messages one finds on the right wing hitler worshipping websites. So, the media, Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction now have exactly the ammunition they were looking for in the debate. Their argument was that Sikh 'thugs' are pretending to protect the honour of the Guru but really its just a front for stopping sikh girls marrying white and black men.

You people, here on this thread, are so stupid you've actually armed your enemies. Well done you muppets.

Does the mainstream media peruse this forum with bated breath looking to weaponize the things we say? Our words hardly carry that much clout.

I haven't perceived these racial undertones you're speaking about Jagsaw. This discussion has been centered on confessional matters. I don't care whether somebody wants to marry a punjabi man or a black man or a white man or a chinese man in a Guru Ghar, So long as he is a Guru Ka Sikh. Otherwise, it should not be allowed. This goes for all those Punjabi nastiks out there too.

[InderjitS 1,244]

I think you should take time to talk to non Sikhs who have married at the Guru Ghar and see how much piaar they have for Sikhi.

D = Bhai Sahib i believe anybody that is educated about Sikhi will automatically come to have pyaar for Sikhi

I have come across many and not a single one has become Sikh.

D = Bhai Sahib Ji if you mean Amritdhari Sikh then granted the incidences like that are low but I sincerely believe that all those who have married by Anand Karaj and continue to attend Gurdwara's to this day are indeed sehajdhari Sikhs and fellow members of the Sikh Panth.

Yes some of them come to the Gurdwara on main Gurpurabs to eat langar but that's as far as it goes, they remain detached from Sikhi.

D = I respect that they attend Gurdwara. I consider all who attend Gurdwara as fellow Sikhs. if they remained detached from Sikhi that isn't helped by us considering them non-Sikhs when they have an Anand Karaj and attend Gurdwara on Gurpurabs!

If one of them is religious the kids adopt that faith, usually of the mother.

D = We should strive that all children of such marriages are members of the Sikh Panth

Please ponder on this pangti regarding bowing/seeing Guru Ji:

Satgur noo sabh ko vekhdaa, jeta jagat sansaar

Dithe mukhat na hovee, jichar shabad na kare vichaar

D = Exactly Bhai Sahib i think the Gurbani substantiates my point completely (particularly in respect of only Akaal Purakh recognising who is a bhekhi and the vast numbers of so-called Sikhs that do not believe in Sikhi sincerely and drink after their Anand Karaj that we never bother to protest against).

Do we know where the word Sehajdhari came from, where was it first used, please advise?

D = Bhai Sahib i suspect that you might feel that sehajdhari's are non-Sikhs but I feel they are integral members of the Sikh Panth.

The AK is hardly the best place to educate people on Sikhi. This should happen beforehand.

D = Absolutely agreed. But when a couple are ready to get married it is a bit late to worry about what we as a community should have done from long before.

Nothing more to say for me, brick wall/head.

[Singhberkshire 43]

. A member in my own family recently had a sham wedding in gurdwara, i did not attend it, and asked her, wat will her kids be? Will they be sikhs? She could even give me a straight answer, and tried to fobb me off. Wat pyar they got for sikhi, if they marry non sikhs, then dont raise sikh kids?

Big Respect to you. I too have refused to take part in these sham weddings.

[DTF 160]

I mean think about it: It started with mainstream media articles about us protecting the honour of Guru ji in the Gurdwara

D = Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is Jagat Guru - the Universal Truth for all humanity. Guru Sahib's honour is beyond comparison and unbreakable. Two people where one of the spouses belongs to a previous non-Sikh background becoming a new Sikh via Anand Karaj in Guru Sahib's presence does not constitute dishonour or Beadbi to Guru Sahib. The bigger Beadbi is effectively alienating someone Sikh and their children and future generations away from Sikhi forever.

, the media distorted it in order to portray us as racists and intolerants who don't want and won't allow mixed marriages full stop and then, before you know it the media - Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction have got us wrapped round their finger so much and so easily they've got us making messages in this debate where we articulate that we don't like our girls marrying white and black fellas. i.e the exact same kind of messages one finds on the right wing hitler worshipping websites. So, the media, Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction now have exactly the ammunition they were looking for in the debate. Their argument was that Sikh 'thugs' are pretending to protect the honour of the Guru but really its just a front for stopping sikh girls marrying white and black men.

D = Ironic because I sensed racist undertones in your description of a Jamaican (new Sikh) groom on the Shepherd's Bush thread.

You people, here on this thread, are so stupid you've actually armed your enemies. Well done you muppets. and I'm talking mostly to DTF here as its clear he or she has some personal family loyalty thing about standing up for mixed marriages in the Gurdwara....seems to be on a personal mission to ensure Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal win the debate.

D = I couldn't care less for Hundal or Friction but the future of the Sikh Panth means everything to me and I am 100% passionate about it. I think alienating couples and their children and future generations is a mistake beyond belief. I take it very personally as I view the people protesting such marriages as de facto being against my existence, against my family's existence and insulting the Anand Karaj of Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Ji Maharaj with Mata Sulakhani Ji.

Him DTF.. Blame him !!!

= LOL

This week, when this issue is discussed to death in the media and radio etc and the whole world sees us Sikhs as racist intolerants remember how it was DTF that deliberately ensured the debate the media would get our side of the story from was rigged in such a way that our simple side of the story was not allowed to be articulated....i.e the media would never hear it. Remember the part DTF had in that.

D = LOL i despise anti-Sikh media. But we Sikhs are hardly helping when we present them ammunition to attack us with on a plate. Thanks to people like yourself the most tolerant and most inclusive faith on Earth is now negatively perceived by millions of newsprint readers as a microcosm of Islamic fascism and fantacism. So well done for your part in presenting the poorest possible image of Sikhs and ensuring that thousands of couples up and down the country and internationally won't even bother with Anand Karaj's from now on but instead choose Church weddings and Hindu vivaahs instead and not raising their children with any connection to Sikhi. Even if you have prevented one future child from being a future Sikh I hope you are personally proud of your part in that.

Seriously now DTF, re-read this whole thread from beginning to end. Its clear you've been on some personal mission to ensure Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal win the argument.

D = Not at all. Hundal and Friction mean nothing to me. But yes the future of the Sikh Panth means everything to me and I believe what I do passionately.

I don't know what your motive for that has been, it could be a personal family matter it could be political....

D = It shouldn't be rocket science: Protesting and blocking a couple's Anand Karaj and ensuring that their children and future generations have no connection to the Sikhi will lead to the demographic oblivion of our Panth in Diaspora populations and I strongly do not want that to happen. You shouldn't either if you care about Sikhi.

but know this: This debate could have armed us Sikhs in the upcoming media and radio debates or it could have armed Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal. You've gone out of your way here to quickly supress all sides of the Sikh's story and arm Sunny and Bobby.

D = This issue goes to the core of where the Sikh Panth's focus should be. It has nothing to do with secular Sikhs trying to win brownie points from their media employers. I'm not paid nothing by anybody. I've gone to work late and come back late as a consequence today too because I am passionate about this issue and it makes my blood boil that when it comes to female infanticide, biraderi apartheid, drugs, alcohol, cancer, illiteracy or poverty afflicting our community there is none of the same furore but when it comes to this issue of blocking a couple from an Anand Karaj and thus alienating them and their children and their future generations away from Sikhi then people like yourself see that as some kind of pathetic achievement to celebrate and toast.

D = Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj bought Mata Sulakhani Ji into Sikhi via Anand Karaj. None of the protestors would dare to criticise Guru Sahib for freeing Mata Sulakhani Ji from the falsehoods of her former belief system via Anand Karaj. And so did many of our bravest shaheeds similarly bring their spouses into Sikhi via Anand Karaj. I daresay that each and every member of this forum if they had the ability to look into their own family tree has at least one ancestor (if not more) that would have been non-Sikh prior to coming into the Sikh Panth via Anand Karaj. The result is that the Sikh Panth has a populations of millions today despite 90% of our population being killed in the Vada Ghallughara of 1762 in which the Muslims had decimated our population down to a few thousands. If Sikhs had been restricted from marrying others from those times then our Panth's population would not have reached the number in millions it is today. But we need the Panth's numbers to grow more and be 100million strong in this century rather than reduced to a minority in Punjab by the time of the 2021 census as a consequence of 5million current day Sikhs being removed from the Sikh Panth and placed into Hindutva slaves fold via Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid mandirs.

[Singhni MiriPiri 318]

The laavan is defined for a practicing sikh, and here is how Gurbani defines a sikh:

gur sathigur kaa jo sikh akhaaeae s bhalakae out(h) har naam dhhiaavai ||
One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.

The shabad further describes the sikh as someone who makes profound effort to reciting naam for the rest of the day and night. Punjabis are not even close or interested in practicing the discipline of a sikh. And frankly, they show enough disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib Ji already. Now just imagine how damaging it would be to allow interfaith marriages, marriages which do not at least come from a sikh background. Would we start accommodating the Gurdwara service to suit their needs which are not aligned with sikhi? Worst enough, most of the people managing the Gurdwara are usually not religious and to them this is all business. That is partially our fault that we have allowed these kind-of-people managing the Gurdwaray in the first place and allowing interfaith marriages can only make it worse.

Those concerned about growing sikh numbers. Personally, I do not care about numbers growing. I believe keeping Sikhs culturally integrated and focussing on quality over quantity is the most beneficial in the long-run as the identity and sikh culture will become more apparent and rich. Whereas, allowing interfaith marriages will only dilute Sikhs even more and will confuse the identity and discipline of a sikh.

[Dr_c 14]

The laavan is defined for a practicing sikh, and here is how Gurbani defines a sikh:

gur sathigur kaa jo sikh akhaaeae s bhalakae out(h) har naam dhhiaavai ||

One who calls himself a Sikh of the Guru, the True Guru, shall rise in the early morning hours and meditate on the Lord's Name.

Those concerned about growing sikh numbers. Personally, I do not care about numbers growing. I believe keeping Sikhs culturally integrated and focussing on quality over quantity is the most beneficial in the long-run as the identity and sikh culture will become more apparent and rich. Whereas, allowing interfaith marriages will only dilute Sikhs even more and will confuse the identity and discipline of a sikh.

Well said that person. In life anything when mixed becomes diluted, put some orange squash into water what do you get!. You have said it bang on and what you say is correct. This whole topic and the people who support these mixed marriages are those who are the pakandi singh in the temples who want a bigger merc or fatter BMW. Then there are those who want to disrupt our faith and bring all these other illegitimates into it and try and bring us down. The muslims and hindus are loving this and there are a few of them on here aren’t there some more obvious than others.

If these bimbos want to marry these people out of the religion we can not and should not stop them, however we can and should stop them doing it with an anad karag. They only want to do this so they can wear there lengas and show in front of the friends. They have no comprehension of sikhi what so ever and probably never been to a guru khar in there life. So we should only allow Sikh to marry Sikh and that is simple really isn’t it. How can you marry out of religion and then expect your children to follow a certain religion. They are so confused and have no real direction. This is absurd and utter nonsense and those supporting it are those who are trying to bring our faith down and finish us off. We will become a faith of illegitimates if this carries on. I am in full support of those who have taken this bull by the horns.

[JagsawSingh 860]

i despise anti-Sikh media. But we Sikhs are hardly helping when we present them ammunition to attack us with on a plate. Thanks to people like yourself the most tolerant and most inclusive faith on Earth is now negatively perceived by millions of newsprint readers as a microsm of Islamic fascism and fantacism. So well done for your part in presenting the poorest possible image of Sikhs and ensuring that thousands of couples up and down the country and internationally won't even bother with Anand Karaj's from now on but instead choose Church weddings and Hindu vivaahs instead and not raising their children with any connection to Sikhi. Even if you have prevented one future child from being a future Sikh I hope you are personally proud of your part in that.

First of all, DTF, I've already explained succintly on this very thread how one is not allowed to have a wedding in a Christian Church without first confirming one's Christianity. Indeed, the Pope, eastern Orthodox Priests and even our own Anglican / Episcopalan Archbishop of Canterbury quotes Mark 10.8 in justifying this ban: 'Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness?' i.e the Christian Church sees you and me as 'lawless' people...i.e unrighteous people simply because we are Sikhs and thus would not allow us to marry in a Church. Our Sikhi scriptures (Gurbani) however, are full of nothing but love....and thats the difference between Sikhi and the other faiths in that the other faiths are full of fear of a vengefull god whereas Sikhi is full of love for a loving God. But where's Bobby Friction's speech about how all Christians are "thugs" for not letting a Sikh get married in a Church ? Where's Bobby Friction's or Sunny Hundals's news article about the Archbishop of Canterbury being a member of the "Taliban" for adhering to what their faith says ? If Bobby Friction is a DJ how come his mouth gets numb when these issues come up? If Sunny Hundal is a journalist who, by definition, should research his subject matter, how come he loses his pen when the issue of Jews, Christians and Muslims come up

And lets not even go deep into a conversation about the Jews because before letting him marry a Jewish girl in a Synagogue they will not only ask the groom to first confirm that he is indeed Jewish they will also do a background check ensuring his father and grandfather were also Jewish. So, never mind letting a Jewish girl marry a jamaican in a Synangogue the Jews won't even be satisfied if the jamaican says he's a Jew and so was his mother. The Synagogue will embark on a 3 generation backgound check before it'll allow her to have a Jewish wedding the synagogue. i.e even though the Jamaican was born a Jew and has always practices Judaism they will insist he proves it before they sanction a wedding in the Synagogue. Otherwise, as they are are nice poeple like us, they will tell them both to get married in a Registry Office because taking Jahova's name in vain is not a light hearted photo opportunity matter. And remember DTF, in terms of your argument about numbers and assimilation etc....the problem is 1000% worse among the Jews than it is for us.

So where's Bobby Friction's diatribe describing all Jewish people as "Taliban" and "thugs" ? Where's Sunny Hundal's voice when it comes to the Christians and Jews who are even stricter than us when it comes to marriage in a place of worship ? Why do their loud lion like voices suddenly get so weak and timid when it comes to questions like this ?

The answer is because these questions are never allowed to be put to them and the reason is because people like you distort this simple issue into a another wider irrelevant issue that both Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal find easy to answer.

Now, the last time I told you Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal are Terrorists you replied with a 'LOL', indicating your leart-hearted response to this assertion. But I'll put it to you again : The very definition of a Terrorist is one who uses intimidation and bullying to get his way. Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal are trying to terrorise us...bully us...intimidate us....by calling us "thugs" and the "Taliban" for having a policy that is actually far less severe than the Jews and Christians. That is terrorism pure and simple.

[Quantavius 141]

To all,

Stop feeding the troll.

[S1ngh 1,930]

Totally agree with jagsaw's reply. Sometime our people dont understand when is the time to stand united and strong.

[StarStriker 1,062]

Is any1 else getting sick and tired of these hippies constantly pullin out the classic line "oh but the gurdwara has 4 doors......."?

Ok so what if a rastafarian comes into a gurdwara, and starts lightin a ganja/marijuana ciggarette? No doubt these liberal hippies will naturally object to the rasta lightin up, but then the rasta throws it in their face, n pulls out "wait y cant i smoke my spliff in here? I thought this place has 4 doors?"

Or wat if a muslim bring halal lamb for the langar as an offering and is told that this is not permissable in the gurdwara? He then pulls out the line "y cant u guys accept my lamb for ur langar? I thought this place has 4 doors?"

Thats wat these hippies r asking for, a complete breach of gurdwara n sikhi regulations, to fit their manmat! Got the nerve to make the guru change rules for them. Dont worry singhs/kaurs, it wont be long till gay marriages r up next, then alcohol bein demanded to wash down langar soon.

Fact is every1 is allowed in the gurus house, and can make/eat langar, can sleep inside, do kirtan, do meditation, use library, gym etc. BUT, wen it comes to sikh ceremonies, they r only for sikhs. Sikhi has 4 ceremonies, baby naming, anand karaj, amrit sanchar and funeral.

[JSinghnz 1,086]

Why must education be through Anand Karaj? Why can't one learn without getting married? Do you get married in order to complete your degree? If the Non Sikh is unwilling to convert at the time of the marriage, what makes you think they will convert later? You're just fooling yourself.

Stop banging your head against the wall. He will never understand no matter what you tell him.

[Jonny101 4,391]

We need to stay strong in our convictions. This kalyugi world will pressure us to compromise on our Rahit and principles and Sikhi, but we need to stay strong. This issue should have been tackled by our previous generations who came ro the west. But they were too busy getting settled in. Now that we their children are settled we cannot ignore this Manmat any longer. The longer we ignore it the more difficult it will be to tackle it in future. Enough damage has occurred by letting this inter faith anand karaj manmat to continue for so long. Now is the time for damage control.

[DTF 160]

Punjabis are not even close or interested in practicing the discipline of a sikh. And frankly, they show enough disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib Ji already. Now just imagine how damaging it would be to allow interfaith marriages, marriages which do not at least come from a sikh background.

Those concerned about growing sikh numbers. Personally, I do not care about numbers growing. I believe keeping Sikhs culturally integrated and focussing on quality over quantity is the most beneficial in the long-run as the identity and sikh culture will become more apparent and rich. Whereas, allowing interfaith marriages will only dilute Sikhs even more and will confuse the identity and discipline of a sikh.

Singhni MiriPiri Ji i always respect what you say but Guru Sahib is not just there for ideal Sikhs (Gurmukhs). Guru Sahib are Jagat Guru for the guidance of all humanity whether Amritdhari or Sehajdhari, Black or White, Punjabi or Tamil. The whole point about these different background marriages is that via education, Anand Karaj and ongoing Sangat support we can "anchor" the erstwhile non-Sikh partner firmly within the Sikh Panth as a new fellow Sikh so that the couple see the benefit of raising their children as Sikhs. Driving the couple away so that they raise their children firmly as non-Sikhs (as people who were denied the blessing of Guru Sahib on their marriage) will leave our Diaspora community half of what it was within a couple of generations.

I respect the sincerity of why you feel it's better for us to keep low numbers but be integrated. However, the reality of the last 70years proves that the concept has been a massive failure. Punjabi Sikhs have one language and one Guru. We should be rock solid as a unified fist. But by abandoning all the tens of millions of sehajdhari non-Punjabi Sikhs as we did via the 1950 Maryada (to the delight of Nehru, Congress and Hindutva forces) and ignoring Dr Ambedkar's desire to join the Sikh Panth (a decision which resulted in ten million plus Hindu's turning to Buddhism in the last 70years) the end result has been that our population percentage in India is lower than it was in 1947. Furthermore, it has made us Punjabi Sikhs insular so that we we will fight our own brethren over jatha, samparda, biraderi, sect etc at the drop of a hat. Instead of us being unified we have fractured in the worst possible way (as seen in our Gurughars) with our Hindutva opponents latest divide and rule tactic against us being to try convert 5million or so current day Sikhs into tomorrow's Hindutva slaves votebank via Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid mandirs (that we are doing nothing about). The less insular we become and the less Punjabism-centric we become via a more diverse Sikh Panth with more non-Punjabi's within our ranks the less we as Punjabi's will fight amongst ourselves and see the bigger picture more. The (Saudi) Arabs who enslaved half the world haven't lost their culture one bit despite being a 1% minority of Muslims and neither have the 4% so-called high caste Hindu minority that pimp Hindutva been overrun by absorbing the tens of millions of erstwhile sehajdhari non-Punjabi Sikhs into the Hindu fold. The Khalsa Panth is already all about quality over quantity but in relation to the wider Panth the opposite applies for common sense demographic reasons that our defeats in 1849, 1947 and 1984 purely due to low numbers quite clearly show.

Then there are those who want to disrupt our faith and bring all these other illegitimates into it and try and bring us down.

= No child or human being is illegitimate. That's an Abrahamic and Hindutva concept that Sikhi rejects. But year after year cutting off an ever increasing minority off from Sikhi is the best way to bring the Panth's numbers down.

The muslims and hindus are loving this and there are a few of them on here aren’t there some more obvious than others.

= Of course they are. The Muslims are happy that by us copying their idiotic stance we add respectability to their outdated religion. Muslim men can marry Christian and Jewish women at any Mosque but you wish to alienate the children of Sikh fathers that do the same. The Muslims also realise that by virtue of the fact they have 1,500 million followers worldwide they can maintain numbers off the backs of immigration combined with a higher birth rate together with honour killings to enforce what they want for numerical supremacy. Nevertheless, year after year more and more Muslim women that are financially independent and not fully brainwashed by Islam still do decide to marry out. The Hindu's are of course also loving it because every Anand Karaj we block is another couple that can proceed with a Hindu Vivaah and thereby feel that a Mandir is a better and more welcoming place to take their children to rather than a Gurdwara.

If these bimbos want to marry these people out of the religion we can not and should not stop them, however we can and should stop them doing it with an anad karag.

= If you can't stop people from marrying, why alienate them from their local Gurdwara when they desire an Anand Karaj thereby ensuring that their children are denied the possibility to learn about Sikhi?

So we should only allow Sikh to marry Sikh

= Sounds very good in theory but you are ignoring the fact that in the UK 99.3% of the surrounding population are non-Sikhs so it is utterly inevitable (as assimilation increases over time) that people will find partners that don't also have Punjabi Sikh parents. Anand Karaj precisely means that the erstwhile non-Sikh becomes a new Sikh, ensuring that both spouses are indeed Sikh. Or are you saying you know better than Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj when Guru Sahib married Mata Sulakhani Ji via the 1st Anand Karaj thereby bringing her into Sikhi.

How can you marry out of religion and then expect your children to follow a certain religion.

= There are hundreds of thousands if not over a million Sikhs out there with a non-Sikh parent but firmly part of the Sikh Panth in 2015. It is statistically more than likely that everybody on this forum has at least one non-Sikh ancestor (if not more) that was bought into Sikhi via Anand Karaj just like Mata Sulakhani Ji was in the 1st ever Anand Karaj by Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj.

those supporting it are those who are trying to bring our faith down and finish us off.

= The best way to decrease Sikh numbers is by blocking Anand Karaj's and alienating couples and their children and future generations away from Sikhi.

We will become a faith of illegitimates if this carries on.

= No human being is an illegitimate. Only Hindu's, Christians and Muslims espouse such pathetic terms to describe innocent children.

First of all, DTF, I've already explained succintly on this very thread how one is not allowed to have a wedding in a Christian Church without first confirming one's Christianity.

= That may be so in Catholic or Church of England churches but if you are not aware of the plethora of non-mainstream Christian Churches that will readily accept all the couples we block from Anand Karaj, then I'm afraid you are unaware of the ground realities and are in effect espousing deliberately and wantonly gifting the children of such marriages to the Christian fold (in your desire to copy the Christians, Muslims and Jews because "they do it").

= I don't agree with Hundal or Friction lumping peaceful Sikhs together with the Qazi's, Priests and Rabbi's of primitive religions which condone Slavery such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam. You however wish to copy the rules of these same outdated and irrelevant Abrahamic religions which condone slavery and barbarity and have bought such unparalleled misery and suffering to the World in contrast to the Sarbat da Bhala that Sikhi is all about.

And remember DTF, in terms of your argument about numbers and assimilation etc....the problem is 1000% worse among the Jews than it is for us.

= And that's why Jewish demographics will be vastly diminished in their Diaspora precisely because of their exclusionary attitude treating Judaism as an ethnic birthright. Sikhi in contrast is a universal faith.

Now, the last time I told you Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal are Terrorists you replied

= Actually my response to that previously was that before they slander peaceful Sikhs they should perhaps study Islamic State and al Qaeda to understand what terrorists actually are, so please don't divert the discussion from the salient point that blocking such Anand Karaj's will result in huge numbers of couples and their children and future generations being alienated away from Sikhi. If Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj bought Mata Sulakhani Ji into Sikhi via the 1st ever Anand Karaj how can you argue against Guru Nanak Dev Ji's example?

This kalyugi world will pressure us to compromise on our Rahit and principles and Sikhi, but we need to stay strong.

= Bhai Sahib Ji nothing can make us as individuals compromise our Sikhi. The Khalsa Panth should remain niyara no matter what. Allowing couples to have an Anand Karaj and raise their children and future generations as Sikhs will strengthen our Panth, as opposed to weaken it by pushing such couples off to weddings at Mandirs and into the Hindu fold (to cite one example) much to the delight of our Hindutva opponents.

Now is the time for damage control.

= Bhai Sahib Ji that is exactly the point. Far from being damage control by protesting and blocking such Anand Karaj's we will only end up decreasing our own Panth's numbers year after year which benefits our Panth in no way. The other alternative is to use the couples desire for an Anand Karaj as a way to educate them about Sikhi, welcome the erstwhile non-Sikh partner as a new Sikh via education and Anand Karaj and via ongoing Sangat support and positive interaction ensure that the couples children are decidedly raised as Sikhs as everything about Sikhi is true, everything about Sikhi is for Sarbat da Bhala and it is the natural faith for all of humanity.

[Singhni MiriPiri 318]

Singhni MiriPiri Ji i always respect what you say but Guru Sahib is not just there for ideal Sikhs (Gurmukhs). Guru Sahib are Jagat Guru for the guidance of all humanity whether Amritdhari or Sehajdhari, Black or White, Punjabi or Tamil. The whole point about these different background marriages is that via education, Anand Karaj and ongoing Sangat support we can "anchor" the erstwhile non-Sikh partner firmly within the Sikh Panth as a new fellow Sikh so that the couple see the benefit of raising their children as Sikhs. Driving the couple away so that they raise their children firmly as non-Sikhs (as people who were denied the blessing of Guru Sahib on their marriage) will leave our Diaspora community half of what it was within a couple of generations.

I respect the sincerity of why you feel it's better for us to keep low numbers but be integrated. However, the reality of the last 70years proves that the concept has been a massive failure. Punjabi Sikhs have one language and one Guru. We should be rock solid as a unified fist. But by abandoning all the tens of millions of sehajdhari non-Punjabi Sikhs as we did via the 1950 Maryada (to the delight of Nehru, Congress and Hindutva forces) and ignoring Dr Ambedkar's desire to join the Sikh Panth (a decision which resulted in ten million plus Hindu's turning to Buddhism in the last 70years) the end result has been that our population percentage in India is lower than it was in 1947. Furthermore, it has made us Punjabi Sikhs insular so that we we will fight our own brethren over jatha, samparda, biraderi, sect etc at the drop of a hat. Instead of us being unified we have fractured in the worst possible way (as seen in our Gurughars) with our Hindutva opponents latest divide and rule tactic against us being to try convert 5million or so current day Sikhs into tomorrow's Hindutva slaves votebank via Balmiki and Dera Ballan apartheid mandirs (that we are doing nothing about). The less insular we become and the less Punjabism-centric we become via a more diverse Sikh Panth with more non-Punjabi's within our ranks the less we as Punjabi's will fight amongst ourselves and see the bigger picture more. The (Saudi) Arabs who enslaved half the world haven't lost their culture one bit despite being a 1% minority of Muslims and neither have the 4% so-called high caste Hindu minority that pimp Hindutva been overrun by absorbing the tens of millions of erstwhile sehajdhari non-Punjabi Sikhs into the Hindu fold. The Khalsa Panth is already all about quality over quantity but in relation to the wider Panth the opposite applies for common sense demographic reasons that our defeats in 1849, 1947 and 1984 purely due to low numbers quite clearly show.

I understand what you are saying but I strongly believe our priority is to respect Guru Sahib. We are gambling with Guru Sahib in the hope of increasing numbers while more importantly we are at the risk of disrespecting Guru Sahib. Giving non-sikhs authority to marry in a Gurdwara can damage the current system we have in place to ensure Guru Sahib is valued, especially since we initially have senseless people managing most Gurdwaray. As Guru Granth Sahib Jee is unspoken speech, many people believe they can take advantage of Guru Sahib by changing the rules when Laavan has made it clear it is designed for a sikh, not someone who merely bows to Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Although I’m not concerned about numbers, I want to make it clear that people can only be drawn to sikhi by witnessing a true khalsa in image and actions, and that is not limited to attending the gurdwara. When I was in secondary school, many people at that time were unaware of the actual image of a sikh and were shown images of Punjabi weddings which they had mistaken for Sikh weddings. If you allow interfaith marriages, now we will have interfaith marriages as part of sikhi. You are furthering the chance of someone seeing and understanding the true image of a sikh.