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Basics Of Sikhi - Anand Karaj (Addressing The Controversy)


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If that is what Waheguru ji wills it then let it be.

D = Vaheguru doesn't will the demographic growth or decline of a Panth.

D = It's we as Sikhs who control the future destiny of the Panth for good or for bad.

How do you know this?

Sorry but IMHO, nobody can say what is God's will. We do not control anything. That is all in your mind. You could not control your birth. You will not be to control your death. You surely will not be able to control your destiny either. Only Waheguru Ji can. IMHO, it is foolish to believe you are in control of your own destiny.

Sat Sri Akal and sorry if I appear arrogant.

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The bottom line is Jacfsing2 Ji is that you have failed to demonstrate why your viewpoint is the for the long term benefit and positive progress of the Sikh Panth.

Maybe because you are 17 you don't see it but mark my words in the USA where 99.9% of the population is non-Sikh it is inevitable that a degree of intermarriage will occur and you are likely to see this in your own state.

Either we can alienate those that do and their children and future generations away from Sikhi forever.

Or we can try our very best by reaching out to make the couple feel that they are part of the Sikh Panth so that there is the best possible chance of them raising their children as Sikhs.

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The bottom line is Jacfsing2 Ji is that you have failed to demonstrate why your viewpoint is the for the benefit of the Sikh Panth.

Maybe because you are 17 you don't see it but mark my words in the USA where 99.9% of the population it is inevitable that a degree of intermarriage will occur.

Either we can alienate those that do and their children and future generations from Sikhi.

Or we can try our very best by reaching out to make the couple feel that they are part of the Sikh Panth so that there is the best chance of them raising their children as Sikhs.

You still believe in that age argument, (The Satguru was also given that at the age of 5-8). The simple solution is only those with the power of Amrit are true Sikhs. (All you want is the Sikhs of this generation to have massive sex with non-Gurmukhs). You haven't shown why yours is any beneficial at all.
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Only Waheguru Ji can. IMHO, it is foolish to believe you are in control of your own destiny.

Sat Sri Akal and sorry if I appear arrogant.

Brother look at the facts. Christianity and Islam are blatant falsehoods but have 4,000 million odd followers. Do I believe that Sikhi having less followers is down to Akaal Purakh's deliberate design? Not at all! I believe that the false religions grew via the sword, terrorism and slavery. And we need to push Sikhi to grow in order to combat the false narratives of those like Bible Bashers and Islamic State. By the extension of your logic above one could (wrongly) argue that it is Vaheguru causing ever increasing rates of intermarriage to occur - when obviously that it is not the case and it is just the obvious consequence of being a very small minority and the effect of assimilation over time.

The simple solution is only those with the power of Amrit are true Sikhs. (All you want is the Sikhs of this generation to have massive sex with non-Gurmukhs). You haven't shown why yours is any beneficial at all.

The age point was not in relation to your lack of maturity or anything of the sort but more that perhaps you have not seen too many around you get married. Outside of California and New York states more than 99.9% of the surrounding population are non-Sikhs. It's a miracle that intermarriage rates are as currently low as they are in the Diaspora. But what I am saying is that year after year they are increasing and I have seen this myself and most people have as an inevitable consequeunce of being a small minority coupled with the effects of assimilation over time. I am saying that particularly in the case of Buddhist, Hindu and Jain female spouses I feel the vast majority of children can be raised Sikhs and that surely that is better than estranging all 100% of such couples away from Sikhi permanently.

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Brother look at the facts. Christianity and Islam are blatant falsehoods but have 4,000 million odd followers. Do I believe that Sikhi having less followers is down to Akaal Purakh's deliberate design? Not at all! I believe that the false religions grew via the sword, terrorism and slavery. And we need to push Sikhi to grow in order to combat the false narratives of those like Bible Bashers and Islamic State. By the extension of your logic above one could (wrongly) argue that it is Vaheguru causing ever increasing rates of intermarriage to occur - when obviously that it is not the case.

Veerji, Sikhi grows when parents raise their children to be Gursikhs. This task is made far more difficult when one parent is a Sikh and the other is a Christian, or a Hindu, leavening their child with doctrines incompatible with our own.

It's usually the case wherever a Hindu-Sikh union is concerned, that the child grows up practicing some mongrelized amalgamation of the two religions, bowing before our Guru who preaches against idolatry one week, and pouring milk over a shivling the next. And they seem totally unaware that there is even a contradiction.

When a Sikh marries a Christian, the child almost invariably inclines towards the Christian faith, unsurprising when you consider that they live in a Western society permeated with Christian imagery and metaphor. Their Sikh half becomes irrelevant to them very quickly.

The only way to guarantee that a child is raised Sikh is if both parents are Sikh.

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Veerji, Sikhi grows when parents raise their children to be Gursikhs.

D = Agreed Bhai Sahib.

This task is made far more difficult when one parent is a Sikh and the other is a Christian, or a Hindu, leavening their child with doctrines incompatible with our own.

D = Agreed Bhai Sahib. I firmly believe that Sikhs marrying Sikhs is the best thing. But we need to realise that not all will when we are such a small minority in the Diaspora with almost 99% of Canadians being non-Sikhs, 99.3% in the UK being non-Sikhs and 99.9% of Americans being non-Sikhs just to mention three of our main Diaspora bastions and even in India outside of Punjab Sikhs are less than 0.5% of the non-Punjabi Indian population.

D = Only by educating erstwhile non-Sikh spouses on the Truth of Sikhi do we stand the best chance with addressing the above problem that you mention of false doctrines incompatible with Sikhi that believe in virgin births, the caste system or slavery.

D = Simply pushing the spouse of a supposedly Sikh background into the Hindu or Christian fold that they must marry at a Mandir or Church ensures 100% of such children being raised as non-Sikhs.

It's usually the case wherever a Hindu-Sikh union is concerned, that the child grows up practicing some mongrelized amalgamation of the two religions, bowing before our Guru who preaches against idolatry one week, and pouring milk over a shivling the next. And they seem totally unaware that there is even a contradiction.

D = I wholly agree that these scenario's are wrong and that we should use the desire of such couples for an Anand Karaj as a way to ensure that such confusion does not occur.

D = But by simply saying to all such couples they can only marry at Mandirs is a way of ensuring that all the children of such marriages become Hindu's.

When a Sikh marries a Christian, the child almost invariably inclines more so towards the Christian faith, unsurprising when you consider that they live in a Western society permeated with Christian imagery and metaphor. Their Sikh half becomes irrelevant to them very quickly.

D = I don't see why that should be the case in the 21st century. The Bible condones slavery. Sikhi opposes it. Christianity teaches that Jesus had a virgin birth. Sikhi does not believe in such fanciful miracles. Sikhi stands up to the scrutiny of logic. Christianity collapses in it's face. What I am arguing is that by pushing all such marriages to occur in a Church we effectively that zero percent of the children will ever connect with Sikhi.

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Veerji, Sikhi grows when parents raise their children to be Gursikhs.

D = Agreed Bhai Sahib.

This task is made far more difficult when one parent is a Sikh and the other is a Christian, or a Hindu, leavening their child with doctrines incompatible with our own.

D = Agreed Bhai Sahib. I firmly believe that Sikhs marrying Sikhs is a good thing. But we need to realise that not all will when we are such a small minority.

D = Only by educating erstwhile non-Sikh spouses on the Truth of Sikhi do we stand the best chance with addressing the above problem.

D = Simply pushing the spouse of a supposedly Sikh background into the Hindu or Christian fold ensures 100% of such children being non-Sikhs.

It's usually the case wherever a Hindu-Sikh union is concerned, that the child grows up practicing some mongrelized amalgamation of the two religions, bowing before our Guru who preaches against idolatry one week, and pouring milk over a shivling the next. And they seem totally unaware that there is even a contradiction.

= I wholly agree that these scenario's are wrong and that we should the Anand Karaj as a way to ensure that such confusion does not occur.

D = But by simply saying to all such couples they can only marry at Mandirs is a way of ensuring that all the children of such marriages become Hindu's.

When a Sikh marries a Christian, the child almost invariably inclines more so towards the Christian faith, unsurprising when you consider that they live in a Western society permeated with Christian imagery and metaphor. Their Sikh half becomes irrelevant to them very quickly.

D = I don't see why that should be the case in the 21st century. The Bible condones slavery. Sikhi opposes it. Christianity teaches that Jesus had a virgin birth. Sikhi does not believe in such fanciful miracles. Sikhi stands up to the scrutiny of logic. Christianity collapses in it's face. What I am arguing is that by pushing all such marriages to occur in a Church we effectively that zero percent of the children will ever connect with Sikhi.

The only way to guarantee that a child is raised Sikh is if both parents are Sikh.

So what happens if a Muslim male has Anand Karaj with Sikh female. Then afterwards the Sikh girl has to convert in order to do nikah.

Even by explaining and going through the Anand Karaj, the couple may do it for show, the kids they have are non-Sikh and lost to Sikhi forever.

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So what happens if a Muslim male has Anand Karaj with Sikh female. Then afterwards the Sikh girl has to convert in order to do nikah.

Even by explaining and going through the Anand Karaj, the couple may do it for show, the kids they have are non-Sikh and lost to Sikhi forever.

Ranjeet Ji I already explained why we need to be extra careful when it comes males from aggressively conversionary Abrahamic faiths which do not have gender equality and where rape of non-Muslim women is permitted in the Quran.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/76978-muslim-getting-married-in-shepherds-bush-gurdwara-this-friday/page-4

If the kids are lost to Sikhi forever despite our best efforts then there is nothing we can do. But we should try our best.

What I am saying is that we should not guarantee that all such children and all future generations are permanently lost from the Sikh Panth by pushing couples elsewhere and forcing them to marry at Churches, Mosques and Mandirs when Sikhi is the undeniable Truth that I confidently feel most children would gravitate towards if they could choose.

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Veerji, Sikhi grows when parents raise their children to be Gursikhs. This task is made far more difficult when one parent is a Sikh and the other is a Christian, or a Hindu, leavening their child with doctrines incompatible with our own.

It's usually the case wherever a Hindu-Sikh union is concerned, that the child grows up practicing some mongrelized amalgamation of the two religions, bowing before our Guru who preaches against idolatry one week, and pouring milk over a shivling the next. And they seem totally unaware that there is even a contradiction.

When a Sikh marries a Christian, the child almost invariably inclines towards the Christian faith, unsurprising when you consider that they live in a Western society permeated with Christian imagery and metaphor. Their Sikh half becomes irrelevant to them very quickly.

The only way to guarantee that a child is raised Sikh is if both parents are Sikh.

Something invariably gives way in the type of situations you've described above, brother, and whether it's a Sikh male marrying a non-Sikh, or a Sikh female marrying a non-Sikh that something is more often than not the Sikh faith.

I wonder why some of our people are so eager to abandon it with such relish? What is it in our make-up as a race or cultural group that leads to such a situation?

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Something invariably gives way in the type of situations you've described above, brother, and whether it's a Sikh male marrying a non-Sikh, or a Sikh female marrying a non-Sikh that something is more often than not the Sikh faith.

I wonder why some of our people are so eager to abandon it with such relish? What is it in our make-up as a race or cultural group that leads to such a situation?

Bhai Sahib it's down to a lack of knowledge about Sikhi. Sikhi demolishes all these other fake religions on pure logic.

But we fail the teach the young about what Sikhi stands for and why it is so important for there to be more Sikhs to do Sarbat da Bhala so that a Khalsa Fauj working with the UN can prevent Genocides, be at the forefront of disaster relief, fight to tackle global illiteracy, child exploitation, modern day slavery, ill health, discrimination, Ebola, HIV etc.

By using Anand Karaj as an opportunity to correct this and ensuring that all children (including the offspring of such marriages currently being protested) are raised with an unbreakable connection to the Truth of Sikhi we can turn a current negative into a future long term positive for the Sikh Panth and indeed the whole world.

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Ranjeet Ji I already explained why we need to be extra careful when it comes males from aggressively conversionary Abrahamic faiths which do not have gender equality and where rape of non-Muslim women is permitted in the Quran.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/76978-muslim-getting-married-in-shepherds-bush-gurdwara-this-friday/page-4

If the kids are lost to Sikhi forever despite our best efforts then there is nothing we can do. But we should try our best.

What I am saying is that we should not guarantee that all such children and all future generations are permanently lost from the Sikh Panth by pushing couples elsewhere and forcing them to marry at Churches, Mosques and Mandirs when Sikhi is the undeniable Truth that I confidently feel most children would gravitate towards if they could choose.

If the Sikh bride does not have Anand Karaj, the likelihood is that they will have a registry marriage if it is a white guy.

Our girls never leave their pekheh and generally try to steer their husband's from his own family to her own family.

Therefore any children she has will spend time with their nankeh, going to Akhand Paths, and to various gurdwaraeh functions so they are not actually lost to Sikhi.

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If the Sikh bride does not have Anand Karaj, the likelihood is that they will have a registry marriage if it is a white guy.

Our girls never leave their pekheh and generally try to steer their husband's from his own family to her own family.

Therefore any children she has will spend time with their nankeh, going to Akhand Paths, and to various gurdwaraeh functions so they are not actually lost to Sikhi.

If you genuinely believe Ranjeet Ji that banning such Anand Karaj's rather than using them as an opportunity to educate the white spouse is beneficial to ensuring the children of such marriages become members of the Sikh Panth, then I respect your opinion but I disagree.

All male white spouses won't be like Martin Singh but I genuinely believe they can be the equal sehajdhari Sikhs.

http://www.indiawest.com/news/global_indian/white-sikh-runs-for-house-of-commons-seat-in-canada/article_d762aa9e-4203-11e5-86f1-a3a4c89ec078.html?mode=jqm

However, the rest of what you say above actually supports my conviction that if we permit such Anand Karaj's and use them as an opportunity to educate, connect and engage the couple with the knowledge that they see Sikhi is the Truth and the benefit of their children being given the names Singh and Kaur.

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If you genuinely believe Ranjeet Ji that banning such Anand Karaj's rather than using them as am opportunity to educate the white spouse is beneficial to ensuring the children of such marriages become members of the Sikh Panth, then I respect your opinion but I disagree.

However, the rest of what you say above actually supports my conviction that if we permit such Anand Karaj's and use them as an opportunity to educate, connect and engage the couple with the knowledge that they see Sikhi is the Truth and the benefit of their children being given the names Singh and Kaur.

The non Sikh spouse should be given a course to understand Anand Karaj. If they willing to become Sikh, then no problem have the Anand Karaj.

If they don't agree with it, have a registry marriage.

Simple.

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The non Sikh spouse should be given a course to understand Anand Karaj. If they willing to become Sikh, then no problem have the Anand Karaj.

If they don't agree with it, have a registry marriage.

Simple.

I agree with you regarding the idea of education about Sikhi and it's exactly what I've been saying all along.

But what I'm also saying is that denying them an Anand Karaj will only push people away from Sikhi which is harmful to the Sikh Panth. Aren't we all agreed that Anand Karaj is better for the long term future and togetherness of any two human beings on the planet in comparison to a Church wedding, Hindu Vivaah, Islamic Nikaah or registry marriage? In essence, even if 2 non-Sikhs wish to marry by Anand Karaj that should be welcomed (as it was in the heyday of the Singh Sabha era when hundreds of thousands if not millions came to Sikhi) as it is a good thing and we are de facto accepting them as new Sikhs the minute they bow down before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

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If you genuinely believe Ranjeet Ji that banning such Anand Karaj's rather than using them as an opportunity to educate the white spouse is beneficial to ensuring the children of such marriages become members of the Sikh Panth, then I respect your opinion but I disagree.

Why must education be through Anand Karaj? Why can't one learn without getting married? Do you get married in order to complete your degree? If the Non Sikh is unwilling to convert at the time of the marriage, what makes you think they will convert later? You're just fooling yourself.

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