Sikhism On Vegan ?

[MrDoaba]

You shouldn’t worry too much about what you should or shouldn’t eat. There are no hard and fast rules in Sikhi about diet, no matter what people claim. Just stay healthy and keep your health at an optimum level at all times. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji aren’t a health guide, they do not comment on dunyavi gallan. Guru Ji is the one who will help us to merge with Parmatma, that’s it.

Vegetarians often argue that people eat meat for the taste of the tongue but only on the day all the staunch veggies stop eating all the khaana peena they eat for the taste of the tongue, then will what they claim will hold some weight, until then Raab de vaaste bas karo.

Personally, Vegetarian Sikhs lost my respect since the boom they created which allowed all arrays of vegetarian food made available to the masses, including fine cuisine. I once saw a leaflet for an independent baker on whose leaflet it said they can provide cakes made according to Sarbloh Bibek. It was truly a mega lol moment. Sarbloh Bibeki birthday cakes...what hypocrisy. It is here that the taste of the tongue argument went into the dustbin.

Only Brahmgyanis can have total control over what they eat. Aam people can try as much as they like but eventually your mind will desire one type of food over the other whether it’s plain or masaledaar.

Before the veggie terrorists attack me I am not advocating eating meat 24/7.

Diet will change according to your avastha, it’s not a black and white subject. It is in fact a very fluid subject I would say. As long as you maintain a balanced diet and try you best not to over indulge, then over time you can adjust your diet dependent on your spiritual state. However, I would say it’s important to dwell on where you see yourself in the Panth and what kind of Sikh you aspire to be as this will also determine your diet somewhat. Meantime de vich Bhagti karo ta fer baad’ch o dekhi jaio ki hunda.

There are many factors to take into consideration.
 
Everyone’s metabolism and body is different for a start. For some being veggie is fine but for others not so much. I have witnessed many Amritdhari folks, including in my own family, whose health declined quite drastically because they had it drilled into their heads after taking Amrit that eating meat is going to send them to the lowest Narkh. It’s pure bakwaas.

People please understand all the food in today’s world comes with some kind of Karmic weight. Globalisation has made it nearly impossible to consume food which has little Karmic weight, unless of course you do subsistence farming.

Do you think a vegan diet is without Karmic weight? No way José. Think about the terrible conditions of farm workers and farmers in many cases as mentioned above. Human suffering could well and truly been a part of the vegan produce you buy.  Think about how many different types of Joon die when soil is being tilled and raked on the farms which produce your vegan products. Think about the pressures farmers face from big corporations which makes their lives hell sometimes. These are just some of the things one could bring up.

The above demonstrates it is nearly impossible to remain innocent when it comes to your diet. A vegan diet could hold as much Karmic weight as a diet which includes meat.

Without being too controversial and staying within forum rules, I’m of the firm opinion that all Sikhs should practise Jhatka occasionally whether or not you're lacto-vegetarian, vegetarian or vegan.

Jhatka is a multifaceted concept; do the kill, deal with the feelings associated with killing, skin and gut the animal, prepare for cooking, cook, and finally experience what it’s like to eat. One of the ways to practise and make perfect the Sipahi part of Sant-Sipahi, the other being Shastar Vidya.
See, it’s highly educational.

Just my two cents baki Raab jaane.

P.S. Sikhs had to fight for their right to do Jhatka once upon a time! See the link below.
http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/13333-the-jhatka-conference-in-1937/?page=1

[Singhni MiriPiri]

I'm a lacto-vegetarian myself but I'm surprised at others insecurity. I totally respect those that practice veganism because I believe compassion and love are great qualities.

I'm a firm believer that any kind of meat is wrong, even if it's jhatka meat. I don't understand how anyone can relate a warrior to someone killing a defenceless  innocent animal, as if that's meant to teach someone how to be a warrior lol. I consider this very evil and un-sikh. 

And even if there are vegetarians that say they will eat meat for survival, they are not being true to themselves and are actually very weak-minded. That shows ones nonexistent spirituality as they are giving into their low and weak human instincts. Sikhs are meant to be powerful but that shows the complete opposite. 

There is the need to be strong and train physically but that alone is nothing if one does not love Vaheguru and Guru sahib. Spiritual strength exceeds anything worldly. 

[MrDoaba]

3 hours ago, Singhni MiriPiri said:

I'm a firm believer that any kind of meat is wrong, even if it's jhatka meat. I don't understand how anyone can relate a warrior to someone killing a defenceless  innocent animal, as if that's meant to teach someone how to be a warrior lol. I consider this very evil and un-sikh.

I respect your view but try looking at it from a different angle Sister.

You are downplaying what it feels like to take away life, something which may be required of a Khalsa at some point in their life.

If you practise an art such as Shastar Vidya and even if you have perfected it, when the time comes to put it to use you will be lost if we don't have concepts such as Jhatka. Think about it, if you took a SV expert and plonked him on the frontline one can only imagine what would be going through his mind, seeing as he has never taken the life of an animal let alone a human.

Take the example of hunting, you can practise the technique of hunting on inanimate objects all day long but to truly grasp those hunting techniques you will actually have to go hunting.

Similarly the analogy above can be applied to a warrior who practises Jhatka.
 
Like I said in my earlier post Jhatka isn’t just about just about acquiring some meat, which is just one part of it, it’s a multifaceted concept which encompasses so much more.

Firstly you’re going to be putting all your training effort to the test, it not easy chopping off a head and you have to deal with the fact you’re going to be killing. You will physically understand your training better; how much pressure is required, the correct angle of the weapon, what it feels like to put weapon to flesh etc. Deliberate over this example....imagine giving a vegetarian chef a huge cut of meat; will he have the skill to cut it up like a skilled butcher? I highly doubt it. I could use many examples but this one fits the best.

Next you have to deal with the feelings involved with what you have done; sadness, guilt, anger, and everything else you would feel if you had to use your warrior skills IRL. Dwelling on these feelings would lead you to do more Bhagti which would increase your Daya and in fact teach you to live more righteously. This is a Sant-Sipahi, one who can kill righteously. I guess you could say it's a bit like "prevention better than cure". And dont forget the saying; with great power comes great responsibility, you won’t become a tyrant.  

Further you would learn survival tactics; gutting, skinning, cooking, and utilising all parts of the goat (which is where we get the skin for Tabla and the strings for the Rabab).

Lastly don’t forget that the defenceless innocent goat used for Jhatka is given Mukhti.

Having said all this, I'll add that at the end of the day you are welcome to believe what you wish.

[Singhni MiriPiri]

38 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

Having said all this, I'll add that at the end of the day you are welcome to believe what you wish.

Yes, we have our own opinions on this matter. I don't understand how a child-like minded animal has anything to do with our business to increase compassion or to gain the courage to kill in the battlefield. If you want to do that, then kill your own fellow Sikh who will at least have the understanding why you want to murder him.

 

[MrDoaba]

29 minutes ago, Singhni MiriPiri said:

Yes, we have our own opinions on this matter. I don't understand how a child-like minded animal has anything to do with our business to increase compassion or to gain the courage to kill in the battlefield. If you want to do that, then kill your own fellow Sikh who will at least have the understanding why you want to murder him.

 

Errr I just explained in my post. I explained in detail actually. Did you even read it?

And that's a terrible and ridiculous comparison. Murder is a crime.

You completely misunderstood my post because you’re hell-bent on vilifying the practise of Jhatka.

You’re implying that I somehow believe that Jhatka is the only way to increase compassion. I didn’t say that, I simply stated that Jhatka isn’t negative and it has positive benefits. That it is a fruitful practise.

Where did I say it will give you courage on the battlefield? Again you’re being narrow-minded and completely mincing my words. Courage comes from Bir Rass Bani. But the skill of killing does not. Thats where SV and Jhatka comes in. They prepare you physically as well as mentally.

Obviously you don’t approve of mental preparation.

Practise SV and Jhatka >>> Makes you do more Bhagti >>> Repeat >>> Go to battle = Physically and mentally prepared Warrior ready to fight again.

Practise SV ONLY >>> Do minimal Bhagti (or none for sake of my example) >>> Repeat >>> Go to battle = Warrior who comes back from battle with mental problems such as PTSD as is evident from today’s military because he had never ever killed any other living being.

Don’t twist my words please.

[Singhni MiriPiri]

17 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

Errr I just explained in my post. I explained in detail actually. Did you even read it?

And that's a terrible and ridiculous comparison. Murder is a crime.

You completely misunderstood my post because you’re hell-bent on vilifying the practise of Jhatka.

You’re implying that I somehow believe that Jhatka is the only way to increase compassion. I didn’t say that, I simply stated that Jhatka isn’t negative and it has positive benefits. That it is a fruitful practise.

Where did I say it will give you courage on the battlefield? Again you’re being narrow-minded and completely mincing my words. Courage comes from Bir Rass Bani. But the skill of killing does not. Thats where SV and Jhatka comes in. They prepare you physically as well as mentally.

Obviously you don’t approve of mental preparation.

Practise SV and Jhatka >>> Makes you do more Bhagti >>> Repeat >>> Go to battle = Physically and mentally prepared Warrior ready to fight again.

Practise SV ONLY >>> Do minimal Bhagti (or none for sake of my example) >>> Repeat >>> Go to battle = Warrior who comes back from battle with mental problems such as PTSD as is evident from today’s military because he had never ever killed any other living being.

Don’t twist my words please.

I understood what you were saying. Let's agree to disagree. 

[MrDoaba]

@Singhni MiriPiri

Ok Ji but I would like to say, I respect your opinion on the matter but don't compare Jhatka on a Goat to murdering a fellow Sikh.

[Singhni MiriPiri]

2 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

@Singhni MiriPiri

Ok Ji but I would like to say, I respect your opinion on the matter but don't compare Jhatka on a Goat to murdering a fellow Sikh.

 

 

 

 

 

When I implied fellow sikh, I meant those that practice Jhatka, as they will have a better understanding and share the same passion in what you are doing. By doing so, you do not have to take the life of an innocent defenceless animal and you yourselves will be able experience and understand the feelings that are all involved in this practice.

Murder of a goat and human are almost comparable because the two are sentient beings. Killing a human is only inhumane and horrendous in society because the law tells us that.

In the end, despite of what all is being said; Vaheguru decides who will be his warrior. We can practice all what we need in worldly aspects, but Vaheguru blesses his sikh with his power in the end.

 

 

[MrDoaba]

1 hour ago, Singhni MiriPiri said:

When I implied fellow sikh, I meant those that practice Jhatka, as they will have a better understanding and share the same passion in what you are doing. By doing so, you do not have to take the life of an innocent defenceless animal and you yourselves will be able experience and understand the feelings that are all involved in this practice.

Murder of a goat and human are almost comparable because the two are sentient beings. Killing a human is only inhumane and horrendous in society because the law tells us that.

In the end, despite of what all is being said; Vaheguru decides who will be his warrior. We can practice all what we need in worldly aspects, but Vaheguru blesses his sikh with his power in the end.

There is absolutely no logic behind what you are saying. You want one of two people who practise Jhatka to Jhatka the other so they can understand the feelings that are involved in this practise? That’s dreadfully illogical, verging on anarchy that is.

“Murder of a goat” isn’t a thing and the killing of humans isn’t inhumane and horrendous just because the law tells us so. Are you not shocked when an animal kills an innocent human?
 
Intelligence of sentient beings should be taken into account.

You seem to be forgetting that human life is the highest Joon. Goats and humans are not comparable at all on a Karmic level.

If soldier kills a fellow soldier that means there is one less person to propagate Dharam. If a soldier kills a goat as part of a soldier lifestyle for both physical and mental purposes then that goat has indirectly helped the propagating of Dharam.
 
Can goats propagate Dharam alone? Can a goat get Mukti on its own?

You’re likening Jhatka to torture or similar.

I told you about the tabla and rabab, who do you think provides these materials?

Don’t forget how many innocent defenceless animals lives are taken by us involuntarily, many by everyday processes and activities. Why is killing one voluntarily such a heinous crime especially given the value of it as listed in my earlier post?

I can agree with your last point but I pretty much summed it up when I said courage (Bir Rass) and skill (SV and Jhatka) are two different things. A tyrant can have much courage and skill also, but if there is not righteousness behind that courage or skill then he will have to answer for his actions one day.

 

[Singhni MiriPiri]

1 hour ago, MrDoaba said:

There is absolutely no logic behind what you are saying. You want one of two people who practise Jhatka to Jhatka the other so they can understand the feelings that are involved in this practise? That’s dreadfully illogical, verging on anarchy that is.

“Murder of a goat” isn’t a thing and the killing of humans isn’t inhumane and horrendous just because the law tells us so. Are you not shocked when an animal kills an innocent human?
 
Intelligence of sentient beings should be taken into account.

You seem to be forgetting that human life is the highest Joon. Goats and humans are not comparable at all on a Karmic level.

If soldier kills a fellow soldier that means there is one less person to propagate Dharam. If a soldier kills a goat as part of a soldier lifestyle for both physical and mental purposes then that goat has indirectly helped the propagating of Dharam.
 
Can goats propagate Dharam alone? Can a goat get Mukti on its own?

You’re likening Jhatka to torture or similar.

I told you about the tabla and rabab, who do you think provides these materials?

Don’t forget how many innocent defenceless animals lives are taken by us involuntarily, many by everyday processes and activities. Why is killing one voluntarily such a heinous crime especially given the value of it as listed in my earlier post?

I can agree with your last point but I pretty much summed it up when I said courage (Bir Rass) and skill (SV and Jhatka) are two different things. A tyrant can have much courage and skill also, but if there is not righteousness behind that courage or skill then he will have to answer for his actions one day.

 

5

 

Humans have the intelligence to understand right and wrong, unlike animals. 

But why are you using a weak animal like a goat, why not kill a fierce animal like a lion? Probably because you would not survive. 

Having more intelligence than an animal or having the highest Joon, does not justify why it is ok to kill a goat. They are sentient beings like us. But since you believe they are not on the same level, what is the point of trying to experience the feelings of murdering a goat or gaining more compassion through this process if you believe they are not comparable to a human? Your compassion for animals is limited so you would not fully grasp all the challenges a warrior experiences. Why is it only important experiencing the pain given to another being, why not also experience the feelings of receiving the pain? That is another aspect of being a warrior too or is that too painful? You should learn the pain that is given to the goat. You seem to think the pain experienced by the goat is unimportant.

You think killing goats is propagating Dharam? That is actually spreading more violence and cruelty in the world. There is nothing pure in that action and it is unjust. Goats go through 8.4 million life forms; they will get mukti, when Vaheguru wishes them to. They are not your concern. And neither do you know if you are actually giving them mukti. Most likely you are just piling on karmic debt that will take a lot of bhagti to remove. Your spirituality will be hindered due to this, so not sure when the Bir Rass or blessings from Vaheguru occurs.