What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma achieved with Badal?

[Singhballer]

On 8/9/2017 at 5:13 PM, chatanga said:

Yes Bhai Manjit Singh sided with badal Dal and has achieved nothing of not for the Panth. Harnam Singh sided with Badal and has achieved many things. People forget very quickly.  But the worst in my opinion was Harminder Singh Gill (another AISSF main guy who didnt beleive in Khalistan) who went over to the Congress party on the offer of a ticket for election. he survived 1984 and spent time in jail as well. Yet he went to the congress party in order to further his political career.

I read the following passage in another thread. Instead of going off topic on the original thread, I have created this new one.

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I disagree that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has achieved many things by siding with Parkash Badal and his Dal. 

What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma accomplished in the affairs of the SGPC, Punjab's Government, or Sikh sovereignty since he's headed Dam Dami Taksal Mehta, headed the Sant Samaj, and nurtured such a warm relationship with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) at large? 

I see a few things that may be seen as accomplishments by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma

1. The 1984 memorial complex being created
2. The removal of the Nanakshahi calendar
3. Getting approval for Taksal's kathavachaks to do parchar from Manji Sahib
4. A "Martyr's Gallery" at the 1984 memorial
   1. (http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/chandigarh/apex-body-accepts-damdami-taksals-demand-4708101/)

On a panthic level, can any of the above be termed as any significant achievement or contribution for our nation by a person who heads one of the oldest Sikh schools, an organization of Sants/Vidhvaans, and has relations with influential political leaders? They can not; these are paltry victories in the face of immense issues of our community. 

The biggest issues of the Panth (including but not limited to):

1. The decline of Sikhi in Punjab
   1. Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements
2. Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide
   1. Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators 
3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions 

Focussing on the SGPC, has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done much of anything to elicit worthwhile change in all the shortcomings, mismanagement, corruption, and overall foolishness of the SGPC?

In the video below Jathedar Ranjit Singh outlines many of the ways the Badal family has usurped the Sikhs' sovereign power and misused the Panth's power and wealth for their own benefit. He also talks about many actions of the SGPC that are blatantly corrupt. 

 

The Badals more or less ordered the SGPC to hand over the rights to relaying Gurbani from Harmandir Sahib from ETC Punjabi to PTC Punjabi at no charge. While the SGPC was to receive payment from ETC for the deal, the SGPC has received no compensation from the Badal family for the over 1100 Crore Rupees that PTC Punjabi owes as of 2013! 

 

Time and time again Baldev Singh Sirsa and Jathedar Ranjit Singh expose scams executed by SGPC officials to enrich themselves at the expense of the Sikh nation's funding. 

Property Scam - https://www.sikh24.com/2017/05/12/baldev-singh-sirsa-exposes-property-scam-in-sgpc-during-avtar-makkars-tenure/#.WYzaf_krKHs

Property Scam - http://indianexpress.com/article/india/sgpc-chief-to-probe-land-deal-during-avtar-singh-makkars-tenure4789971/

Recruitment Scam - http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/recruitment-scam-in-sgpcrun-guru-granth-sahib-world-un

Badal seeking favours from Gurdwara Judicial Panel - http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20020522/main6.htm

You will notice the SGPC always constituting its own "committees" of its own men to investigate. Does anyone think that will ever lead to a credible investigation where the truth and justice is of utmost importance? Nope. When a judicial panel tells the SGPC to have a private firm do an audit, the SGPC just ignores it. Complete disregard. - http://sikhsangat.org/2009/sikh-gurdwara-judicial-panel-slaps-contempt-notice-on-sgpc/

From the 7:00 mark Jathedar Ranjit Singh goes through the misdeeds of the Badal family and the SGPC.

 

In relation to "2. Lack of Justice and Healing from 1984 and following genocide, What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done with his influence on the Badal family and SGPC in that area?

• Thousands of Punjab police officers involved in our genocide have roamed with impunity. Badal Dal, while promising over many elections, particularly in the 1990s to punish all the guilty has done the complete opposite. They have sheltered, protected, rewarded, and saluted those same officers, and not just the big boys like Sumedh Saini, Izhar Alam, etc.. Did Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma do anything to use his political influence on the Badals to have impartial investigations, charges, and eventual punish meted down for the guilty?
• Some may know that the Shiromani Akali Dal used to have a "Shiromani Akali Dal Human Right Wing"; Jaswant Singh Khalra was the General Secretary of it. Why do you think that wing has gone into oblivion? Khalra and others working in that wing investigated and uncovered the crimes of the government. The Badals don't want such crimes to see the light of day and have as such instituted policy not to support human right endeavours in the political party of the Sikhs or the SGPC. Has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done anything to get the SGPC or Akali Dal to mobilise their resources toward hiring investigators, former police officers, former judges, or lawyers to research, investigate, and expose to the world, and begin legal proceedings for all those crimes that were committed against the Sikhs?
• Jathedar Gurdev Singh Kaunke was tortured and murdered by Jagraon Police. A report was conducted by the Punjab government but was never released. Badal promised to release it if it came into power. He never did. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to get that report released? Especially since this particul victim was of such high regard from Dam Dami Taksal.

In relation to "3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions"

• The Akal Thakht and SGPC has been controlled by the political overlords, whether it was Tohra or Talwandi exerting their influence, or the Badals in the modern day. The "leaders" of our nation in the form of Thakht Jathedars are chosen by the Badals to be "yes men", support the status-quo, and be wielded for political gain. The SGPC president is chosen in this exact way too. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to change these political interferences and institute a system by with the nation chooses its leaders? What actions has he taken to ensure leadership at these levels works for the betterment of the community instead of the political betterment of the Badal family? 
• While everyone makes much fuss over the Indian government destroying and stealing our priceless historical artifacts in 1984, the destruction that the SGPC has either directly or indirectly caused to our heritage is spectacular. Dozens if not hundreds of buildings razed or allowed to crumble. The possessions and artifacts of our Guru's and prominent Sikhs decay and turn to dust; this is living history going to waste forever to be inaccessible to our future generations. 
  • The SGPC has been aware of all this but this is not a priority for them. I'm sure Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of this too. What has he done to mobilise SGPC resources towards the preservation of our history? I find it ironic that such a learned individual will do katha of and teach katha of Suraj Parkash or Panth Parkash, but that actual history he narrates he doesn't seem to be too bothered about protecting. 
    • Uncovered during the Badal's construction of the horrendous plaza outside Harmandir Sahib - https://www.sikh24.com/2013/12/02/sgpc-set-to-destroy-more-sikh-heritage/#.WYzdNvkrKHs
    • Mansion of Mangal Singh Ramgarhia near Harmandir Sahib demolished. SGPC knew and did nothing. http://news.ukpha.org/2013/09/mansion-of-sikh-general-mangal-singh-ramgharia-razed-to-the-ground/
    • Relics of the Guru's decaying - http://news.ukpha.org/2013/02/priceless-possessions-left-to-decay-in-neglected-forts-among-them-relics-of-guru-gobind-singh/
    • Relics of Guru Arjan Dev Ji decaying going to waste - http://news.ukpha.org/2013/02/as-bilgas-treasure-decays-villagers-seek-outside-help/

Finally, while he has been President of the Sant Samaj for a great length of time, the other Vidhvaans of the organization have become disillusioned with his leadership or lack-there-of. Mahapurakhs like Baba Lakhbir Singh Ratwara Sahib, Baba Hari Singh Randhawe wale, Baba Amir Singh Jawaddi Taksal wale, Baba Seva Singh Rampur Khere wale all have left or distanced themselves from the Sant Samaj due to its wayward leadership and direction. - https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/02/03/93-sant-samaj-leaders-part-ways-baba-harnam-singh-dhumma/

Many of the occurrences and facts I have presented above are not caused or created by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma. However, in being the leader of Dami Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, and having such warm and close relations with the Badal family, the SGPC, and Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), he has achieved very little in rectifying or ameliorating any of those issues in any meaningful way. It is treachery and deception with the Panth for Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to have aligned, supported, and collaborated with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal); and to think, I haven't even mentioned Badal's and the Shiromani Akali Dal's collusion and cooperation in the June 1984 attack and subsequent smothering of the resistance movement. 

Have other leaders in the Panth also joined and supported the Badal family? Yes. But, no dharmic leader has been closer or supported the Badals with more zeal than Baba Harnam Singh Dumma. What triumph has he produced from that support?

Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma may well have done a lot of things over his lifetime, however, the high position and influence he has been given have gone to waste. He does not seem to to have the wit, vision, strategic acumen, or transparency that Sikhs require from a person in such a position. 

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If there are any mistakes or criticisms of the above analysis please voice them! 

[BhForce]

20 hours ago, Singhballer said:

Many of the occurrences and facts I have presented above are not caused or created by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma. However, in being the leader of Dami Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, and having such warm and close relations with the Badal family, the SGPC, and Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), he has achieved very little in rectifying or ameliorating any of those issues in any meaningful way.

This is an extremely well-researched post. I do agree with many of your points about the wrongdoings of the SGPC. Even just one of them (like obliterating archaeological relics) would be an indictment of the SGPC. It is very painful to read about them doing this.

At the same time, I feel that your charge against Baba Harnam Singh is basically that he is not Guru Gobind Singh ji, and that he has not solved all the problems of the Sikh Panth, and led us into a glorious future. Now, while I am not a follower of Baba Harnam Singh, I would like to state that he is simply a human, and expecting him to solve all the problems of the Panth is a very, very high bar. As a dispirited Sikh, my expectations are much lower than yours, and as such, I'm willing to accept just a few accomplishments.

[InderjitS]

These sum up the Dhumma or  as I like to call him - Gimli (but only in looks) from LOTR , he has helped bring DD Taksal to it's knees. 

 

 

 

and the icing on the cake

 

 

[acsap]

Saad dhumma is disgrace to Sikh religion!

[KhoonKaBadlaKhoon]

I just don't get how anyone can justify him sitting beneath Badal like that. Or even keeping company with them. 

[singh598]

Everyone serves the CM be it taksal, Sgpc,police, sant samaj nihangs akaal takhat the media the gangsters the drug smugglers the courts the lawyers AND THE CM FOLLOWS INSTRUCTIONS FROM CENTRAL 

This is the evil plan to make money and destroy Punjab and it's hereditary Sikhs

[Singhballer]

5 hours ago, BhForce said:

This is an extremely well-researched post. I do agree with many of your points about the wrongdoings of the SGPC. Even just one of them (like obliterating archaeological relics) would be an indictment of the SGPC. It is very painful to read about them doing this.

At the same time, I feel that your charge against Baba Harnam Singh is basically that he is not Guru Gobind Singh ji, and that he has not solved all the problems of the Sikh Panth, and led us into a glorious future. Now, while I am not a follower of Baba Harnam Singh, I would like to state that he is simply a human, and expecting him to solve all the problems of the Panth is a very, very high bar. As a dispirited Sikh, my expectations are much lower than yours, and as such, I'm willing to accept just a few accomplishments.

My original post may need more clarity in how I present my ideas; I was not trying to put across the point that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma must fit the mold of a leader who solves all the Panth's problems and leads us to a future of prosperity and growth. Those are lofty expectations. I do not believe that's the standard Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma should be held to.

I was merely trying to question: are the "accomplishments" of Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma significant or are they miniscule and non-impactful for the Panth's future, especially in comparison to the immense challenges and issues we face. 

People will argue that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has used his leadership position in Dam Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, as well as, his support of and relationship with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), to make important progress in issues of the Panth. I don't believe he has. I don't believe he has made any significant progress in addressing any of those larger problems of the Panth even whilst having his strong political affiliations.

My intention was to point out that:

1. The most dire and severe issues of the Panth have not been addressed in any compelling fashion by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma over the last decade, at a time when he has cultivated powerful connections with Punjab's political overlords. 
2. He is not an individual who possesses necessary skills and character traits, such as long-sightedness, integrity, strategic planning/thinking, principles, conviction, etc., to be a useful, productive, valuable, and helpful leader that can earnestly contribute to the Panth's progression. 

[Akalifauj]

6 hours ago, BhForce said:

This is an extremely well-researched post. I do agree with many of your points about the wrongdoings of the SGPC. Even just one of them (like obliterating archaeological relics) would be an indictment of the SGPC. It is very painful to read about them doing this.

At the same time, I feel that your charge against Baba Harnam Singh is basically that he is not Guru Gobind Singh ji, and that he has not solved all the problems of the Sikh Panth, and led us into a glorious future. Now, while I am not a follower of Baba Harnam Singh, I would like to state that he is simply a human, and expecting him to solve all the problems of the Panth is a very, very high bar. As a dispirited Sikh, my expectations are much lower than yours, and as such, I'm willing to accept just a few accomplishments.

Dhumma calls himself the head of DamDami Taksal.  He's a fraud and never will be head.  Taksal Jathedar's main duty is to teach Gurbani pronunciation, meaning and increase Gurmat parchar.  Dhumma has not even done one of the above duties of Taksal.  Bhai Gurdev Singh ji Kuanke would have been the next Jathedar of Taksal if it would have been anyone.  Bhai Sahib increased Gurmat parchar by taking villagers out of the rut they were in. Why has manmat parchar increased (missionaries) since Baba Thakur Singh ji left this earth because the fake jathedar of Taksal was to busy massaging Badal.  

[Kira]

7 hours ago, InderjitS said:

 

 

Cringe almighty. 

[chatanga]

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

I disagree that Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has achieved many things by siding with Parkash Badal and his Dal. 

What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma accomplished in the affairs of the SGPC, Punjab's Government, or Sikh sovereignty since he's headed Dam Dami Taksal Mehta, headed the Sant Samaj, and nurtured such a warm relationship with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) at large? 

I see a few things that may be seen as accomplishments by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma

1. The 1984 memorial complex being created
2. The removal of the Nanakshahi calendar
3. Getting approval for Taksal's kathavachaks to do parchar from Manji Sahib
4. A "Martyr's Gallery" at the 1984 memorial

 

5. Helping get rid of Delhi's Malechh committee of Sarna and co, and restarting katha there including katha of Sri Dasme Granth Sahib.

 

The above accomplishments are a great acheivement if you were to consider what the situation would be like had this not been done.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

On a panthic level, can any of the above be termed as any significant achievement or contribution for our nation by a person who heads one of the oldest Sikh schools, an organization of Sants/Vidhvaans, and has relations with influential political leaders? They can not; these are paltry victories in the face of immense issues of our community. 

The biggest issues of the Panth (including but not limited to):

1. The decline of Sikhi in Punjab
   1. Due to things like: Proliferation of drugs, lack of parchaar and spiritual sustenance, government suppression of Sikh movements
2. Lack of justice and healing from 1984 and following genocide
   1. Tens of thousands Sikhs killed, tortured, detained, made political prisoners, and continued mass impunity for perpetrators 
3. Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions 

 

All these things were in place when Sant Jarnail Singh and Baba Thakur Singh were alive. While more Sikhs were religious definitely it is wrong to put these regressions at Baba Harnam Singh personal responsibility.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

Focussing on the SGPC, has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done much of anything to elicit worthwhile change in all the shortcomings, mismanagement, corruption, and overall foolishness of the SGPC?

 

The original plan was to support Badal which meant that Badal had to commit 40 SGPC seats to Sant Samaj. These 40 Sant Samaj nominees won their seats but the congress party took the elections to court where there was a stay of power so the previous SGPC continued as was. The case took 6 years to reach a verdict. If these Sikhs had been able to take their place in SGPC there would most likely have been a great change.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

Lack of Justice and Healing from 1984 and following genocide, What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done with his influence on the Badal family and SGPC in that area?

• Thousands of Punjab police officers involved in our genocide have roamed with impunity. Badal Dal, while promising over many elections, particularly in the 1990s to punish all the guilty has done the complete opposite. They have sheltered, protected, rewarded, and saluted those same officers, and not just the big boys like Sumedh Saini, Izhar Alam, etc.. Did Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma do anything to use his political influence on the Badals to have impartial investigations, charges, and eventual punish meted down for the guilty?
• Some may know that the Shiromani Akali Dal used to have a "Shiromani Akali Dal Human Right Wing"; Jaswant Singh Khalra was the General Secretary of it. Why do you think that wing has gone into oblivion? Khalra and others working in that wing investigated and uncovered the crimes of the government. The Badals don't want such crimes to see the light of day and have as such instituted policy not to support human right endeavours in the political party of the Sikhs or the SGPC. Has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done anything to get the SGPC or Akali Dal to mobilise their resources toward hiring investigators, former police officers, former judges, or lawyers to research, investigate, and expose to the world, and begin legal proceedings for all those crimes that were committed against the Sikhs?
• Jathedar Gurdev Singh Kaunke was tortured and murdered by Jagraon Police. A report was conducted by the Punjab government but was never released. Badal promised to release it if it came into power. He never did. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to get that report released? Especially since this particul victim was of such high regard from Dam Dami Taksal.

 

I agree with you here. Baba Harnam Singh could have and should have done more to move badals hand against the ravan sena. However the problem here was that Badal did not want to pursue these cases himself as it would have made more people aware of the crimes of the ravan sena.

With Kaunke's case, I beleive it was given to the CBI of india to investigate. Not sure, but Harnam Singh should definitely have kept this issue alive.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

Corruption at the Akal Thakht, SGPC, and Sikh institutions"

• The Akal Thakht and SGPC has been controlled by the political overlords, whether it was Tohra or Talwandi exerting their influence, or the Badals in the modern day. The "leaders" of our nation in the form of Thakht Jathedars are chosen by the Badals to be "yes men", support the status-quo, and be wielded for political gain. The SGPC president is chosen in this exact way too. What has Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma done to change these political interferences and institute a system by with the nation chooses its leaders? What actions has he taken to ensure leadership at these levels works for the betterment of the community instead of the political betterment of the Badal family? 
• While everyone makes much fuss over the Indian government destroying and stealing our priceless historical artifacts in 1984, the destruction that the SGPC has either directly or indirectly caused to our heritage is spectacular. Dozens if not hundreds of buildings razed or allowed to crumble. The possessions and artifacts of our Guru's and prominent Sikhs decay and turn to dust; this is living history going to waste forever to be inaccessible to our future generations. 
  • The SGPC has been aware of all this but this is not a priority for them. I'm sure Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma knows of this too. What has he done to mobilise SGPC resources towards the preservation of our history? I find it ironic that such a learned individual will do katha of and teach katha of Suraj Parkash or Panth Parkash, but that actual history he narrates he doesn't seem to be too bothered about protecting. 
    • Uncovered during the Badal's construction of the horrendous plaza outside Harmandir Sahib - https://www.sikh24.com/2013/12/02/sgpc-set-to-destroy-more-sikh-heritage/#.WYzdNvkrKHs
    • Mansion of Mangal Singh Ramgarhia near Harmandir Sahib demolished. SGPC knew and did nothing. http://news.ukpha.org/2013/09/mansion-of-sikh-general-mangal-singh-ramgharia-razed-to-the-ground/
    • Relics of the Guru's decaying - http://news.ukpha.org/2013/02/priceless-possessions-left-to-decay-in-neglected-forts-among-them-relics-of-guru-gobind-singh/
    • Relics of Guru Arjan Dev Ji decaying going to waste - http://news.ukpha.org/2013/02/as-bilgas-treasure-decays-villagers-seek-outside-help/

 

It is unfair to blame Harnam Singh for these. He had a plan to chnage the SGPC but it was foiled. PLus this was always there when Sant jarnail Singh was there, but no-one blamed him for corruption even though at times he was close to Akali Dal leadership because of the morcha.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

Finally, while he has been President of the Sant Samaj for a great length of time, the other Vidhvaans of the organization have become disillusioned with his leadership or lack-there-of. Mahapurakhs like Baba Lakhbir Singh Ratwara Sahib, Baba Hari Singh Randhawe wale, Baba Amir Singh Jawaddi Taksal wale, Baba Seva Singh Rampur Khere wale all have left or distanced themselves from the Sant Samaj due to its wayward leadership and direction. - https://sikhsiyasat.net/2017/02/03/93-sant-samaj-leaders-part-ways-baba-harnam-singh-dhumma/

 

The Sant Samaj originally came together for the SGPC elections which unfotunately they were unable to see through to the end. After this various leaders as such who really had no desire to involve themsleves in any politics left.

 

On 11/08/2017 at 2:43 AM, Singhballer said:

Many of the occurrences and facts I have presented above are not caused or created by Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma. However, in being the leader of Dami Dami Taksal and the Sant Samaj, and having such warm and close relations with the Badal family, the SGPC, and Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal), he has achieved very little in rectifying or ameliorating any of those issues in any meaningful way. It is treachery and deception with the Panth for Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma to have aligned, supported, and collaborated with the Badal family and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal); and to think, I haven't even mentioned Badal's and the Shiromani Akali Dal's collusion and cooperation in the June 1984 attack and subsequent smothering of the resistance movement. 

 

Those warm relations were there for a purpose. As i have said many times here, in the life and death struggles of the Dal Panth, even they made political/military alliances with the moghals. I wouldn't criticize those Sikhs because they beleived they were acting in the interests of the Panth by siding with an enemy that had committed pogroms against them many times and killed thousands and thousands of Sikhs.