Should non-practising sikhs be allowed Anand karaj?

[Guest confused.upset.lost]

2 hours ago, S1ngh said:

Brother, you seems to be upset. I think you are taking at too much extreme level and sees a division among people. I would suggest you to take time to learn more about sikhi. Start reading books and translations if your Punjabi is weak. 

yes, i'm confusd. I don't know if i'm a sikh or just imagining. This is why a friend from chamar caste told me to follow their ravidassia and go their gurdwara. He said that the Sikhs won't accept me as one of their own unless I keep kes and do amritshak. I would like to learn about these things slowly, but I kinda understand why my cousin sister went and married a ravidassia against family wishes.

Too right, that mainstream SIKHS ARE DIVIDED. I can see these divisions amongst members on this forum. You got pompous head in the sand Turbanator(talks out of his derriere) and then I see every (not prejudice, not castiest) amrtidharees ttreating gay Ajeetsingh as if he's the new age untouchable.  So it seems ok to say that we don't have an untouchable caste naukar in the house back in the pind, and oh no, we don't believe caste.  . But then my cousin gets married to chamar, and everyone kicks a fuss. and sikhsangat class the gay person worse than untouchable caste, at the same time claiming that "we are the righteous Sikhs, because we taken amrit"

Seriously, I used to be proud telling the class that I'm a sikh, since majority were muslim and christian, but now, I don't feel proud anymore and i'm too shy to even approach a sikh. I approached some young sikha at soho road gurdwara and they were amritdharee's. But they just ignored and snubbed me cuz i'm a mona. Even given me a complex about entering the only house of worship that I've ever been to.

I've seen the discussions and divisions on here, and because I'm not even a proper sikh, I haven't signed up. it disgusts me that there are this many double standards amongst todays Sikhs.   What do I say when someone asks "what kind of girl will you want to marry and where would you get married?"   Do I just say, I don't belong anywhere because I'm neither here or there according to pompous turbanator  and the rest of amritdharees.

 

[S1ngh]

What is your age? You do not need anybody’s acceptance to be a Sikh. 

[jkvlondon]

6 hours ago, Guest confused.upset.lost said:

yes, i'm confusd. I don't know if i'm a sikh or just imagining. This is why a friend from chamar caste told me to follow their ravidassia and go their gurdwara. He said that the Sikhs won't accept me as one of their own unless I keep kes and do amritshak. I would like to learn about these things slowly, but I kinda understand why my cousin sister went and married a ravidassia against family wishes.

Too right, that mainstream SIKHS ARE DIVIDED. I can see these divisions amongst members on this forum. You got pompous head in the sand Turbanator(talks out of his derriere) and then I see every (not prejudice, not castiest) amrtidharees ttreating gay Ajeetsingh as if he's the new age untouchable.  So it seems ok to say that we don't have an untouchable caste naukar in the house back in the pind, and oh no, we don't believe caste.  . But then my cousin gets married to chamar, and everyone kicks a fuss. and sikhsangat class the gay person worse than untouchable caste, at the same time claiming that "we are the righteous Sikhs, because we taken amrit"

Seriously, I used to be proud telling the class that I'm a sikh, since majority were muslim and christian, but now, I don't feel proud anymore and i'm too shy to even approach a sikh. I approached some young sikha at soho road gurdwara and they were amritdharee's. But they just ignored and snubbed me cuz i'm a mona. Even given me a complex about entering the only house of worship that I've ever been to.

I've seen the discussions and divisions on here, and because I'm not even a proper sikh, I haven't signed up. it disgusts me that there are this many double standards amongst todays Sikhs.   What do I say when someone asks "what kind of girl will you want to marry and where would you get married?"   Do I just say, I don't belong anywhere because I'm neither here or there according to pompous turbanator  and the rest of amritdharees.

 

bro in the Days of the Gurus ALL sikhs had charan amrit to dedicate themselves to their Guru ji, current Khande di Amrit was made by Guru Gobind Singh ji to replace that tradition as there would be no more Human forms of Guru Sahiban . The true amrit is made from Gurbani . We keep kesh because we accept divine Will/Hukham  even at the basic level i.e. in our bodies . Sikhi is seperate from Punjabi culture the prejudice is not from sikhi but the punjabi/Indian cultural influence .

why would you be ashamed of being a sikh? that doesn't make sense to me ...sikhi is the best, people are the problem so don't blame sikhi for human failures to live up to it .

Ajeet is getting a hard time because he currently being a hypocrite by being engaged to an innocent girl when he knows his truth ...many folks here want him to be truthful to his folks so it doesn't trap an innocent party in a situation she has no clue about .

everyone is still travelling along the path , having amrit is just getting into the school of sikhi you still have to live and learn  it is a first step , some people are ahead and some have a ways to go but we are all hopefully moving onwards ...

 

[BhForce]

On 5/26/2018 at 2:43 PM, Guest Pakhand said:

Its the same thing as 90% of Punjabi boys who wear the khandha but dont know a thing about Sikhee.

The #1, big thing about Gursikhi is obeisance towards the Guru. And all those monas you're disparaging have that.

And if they don't have "knowledge" about Sikhism, then teach that. The gurdwara can given them a short pamphlet on Sikhi, or they can even require the couple to take a 2-day course or whatever.

On 5/26/2018 at 2:43 PM, Guest Pakhand said:

If you have one thing in your mouth and another in your mind then you are false.

That only applies to non-Sikhs claiming to be Sikhs. It doesn't apply to Sikhs stating they are Sikhs. Note that the definition of Sikh says nothing about whether you're following rehat or not.

On 5/26/2018 at 2:43 PM, Guest Pakhand said:

Anand karaj but what about those are aren't practising sikhee and can get away with it cos they grew up in it.

What would they be "getting away with"? They're stating they have faith in the 10 Gurus. They're not lying about being in rehit, because that question was not even asked.

On 5/26/2018 at 2:43 PM, Guest Pakhand said:

Is that that not pakhand as well?

No, posing an Amritdhari without doing rehit/maryada is pakhand. Merely stating your belief in the Gurus is not pakhand.

[BhForce]

On 5/26/2018 at 6:04 PM, puzzled said:

i saw the groom walk out with his pagh thrown over his shoulders and the first thing he said when he walked out was the F word with a big sigh of relief. Someone like that should not be allowed to have anand karaj.

OK, I agree he was a fool. He'll get his just reward.

But, by having an Anand Karaj, he and his wife are "in the Sikh fold". Later, he has kids, and they'll grow up knowing that they are "Sikhs". They may not have much of an idea of what that's supposed to mean, but when they get older, they can google for "Sikh", and they'll find plenty of resources to get them started on their journey, if that's what they choose.

If they're not even in the fold, that can never, ever happen.

On 5/26/2018 at 6:04 PM, puzzled said:

I even question myself sometimes and wonder if i really should have Anand Karaj, I wouldn't want to promise to Guru Ji and then break the commitment a few weeks later by doing something stupid.

What would that be, bro? Waking up 30min late for Amrit Vela? Or scr*wing a woman other than your wife? The former can be easily forgiven. Why would you ever think of doing the latter, no matter if you had an Anand Karaj or a court wedding?

On 5/26/2018 at 6:04 PM, puzzled said:

Tbh the aunties are as clueless and lost as some of these couples are these days.

Agreed, but what you do want? Only weddings allowed where not only both the bride and groom are wearing blue cholas, no makeup, and also the entire rest of the baraat also have to wear blue cholas? I don't really think you can make a rule about makeup, though you can preach to avoid excess.

[BhForce]

14 hours ago, ipledgeblue said:

modern 19th/20th century  Anand Karaj  ceremony was created for amrit dharis originally.

What? So you think Anand Karaj was just invented in the Singh Sabha period? Sikh history granths refence "anand" as a form of Sikh marriage prior to the arrival of the British.

Sikh history relates that Guru Nanak ji married by doing parikarma of mul mantar (so, kind of like parikarma of Guru Granth Sahib). What's the essential difference?

Finally, why do you say that (if Anand Karaj was invented in the 20th century), that it was created for Amritdharis?

[BhForce]

12 hours ago, Guest confused.upset.lost said:

Q1) Can you not call yourself a sikh, unless you are amrtidhari?

According to the definition by the SGPC, you can call yourself a Sikh if you believe in the simple formulation above, so you don't have to be amritdhari by that definition.

Of course, according to Guru Sahib, you're only a Sikh if you follow Guru ji's orders (which include Amrit).

12 hours ago, Guest confused.upset.lost said:

Q2)Is anand karaj ONLY for amritdharees?

Well, at Hazur Sahib, yes. Among Punjabis, there's been so much decline, it would be so difficult to enforce that rule.

12 hours ago, Guest confused.upset.lost said:

Q3) How many amritdharees have been FORCED to become amritdhari so that they can fit in, and call themselves a sikh? 

Probably very few. Even if this were so, what would the big deal be about having to give up tobacco, alcohol, adultery, stealing, etc.? Would that be so bad?

Would it be so bad to have to hear your own Guru's words every day early in the morning? Would you consider that some kind of hell?

Really, that's stuff you should be doing anyway if you consider yourself a Sikh.

12 hours ago, Guest confused.upset.lost said:

Q4) my parent's weren't amritdharee, but they had anand karaj. They both have faith in sikhi, both do bhagti but are NOT ready for amrit yet. Does this mean that I was born out of wedlock (haram)

No, bro, you're not a haramzada, relax.

12 hours ago, Guest confused.upset.lost said:

Q5) Is this Guru Nanak ji's sikhi is this some new version that I missed along the line?

Taking amrit is Guru Nanak ji's Sikhi. It was called charanamrit back then administered by the Gurus personally, later changed by the 10th Guru to Khanda Amrit administered by Panj Piyare.

The problem is just that our panth became so weak after we lost the Sikh Raaj that now we think it's OK to go your entire life without taking Amrit.

Anyways, if you say you're parents do bhagti but aren't ready for Amrit, that's great.

Keep doing that. And also avoid all the prohibitions that you can. And do all the bani you can.

Basically, if you think you're not ready for Amrit, you should still live like an Amritdhari Sikh (except maybe the hair if you can't bring yourself to keep your hair just yet).

[ipledgeblue]

8 hours ago, BhForce said:

What? So you think Anand Karaj was just invented in the Singh Sabha period? Sikh history granths refence "anand" as a form of Sikh marriage prior to the arrival of the British.

Sikh history relates that Guru Nanak ji married by doing parikarma of mul mantar (so, kind of like parikarma of Guru Granth Sahib). What's the essential difference?

Finally, why do you say that (if Anand Karaj was invented in the 20th century), that it was created for Amritdharis?

I think the modern version (created by the original Nirankaris and Singh Sabha/SGPC) was strictly for Amrit Dharis.

There was Anand Viyaah, but this was probably different in some way to modern Anand Karaj.

Also Laavan wasn't created until Guru Ram Dass.

I hear during Guru Amar Dass period Anand Sahib may have been read.

[BhForce]

41 minutes ago, ipledgeblue said:

I think the modern version (created by the original Nirankaris and Singh Sabha/SGPC) was strictly for Amrit Dharis.

But on what basis do you so this? Don't take this in the wrong way. Just some friendly prodding to uncover stuff which I may not be aware of.

42 minutes ago, ipledgeblue said:

There was Anand Viyaah, but this was probably different in some way to modern Anand Karaj.

Probably different? Based on history granths or just speculation?

43 minutes ago, ipledgeblue said:

Also Laavan wasn't created until Guru Ram Dass.

Very true. But the main point showed by Guru Nanak ji was rejection of parikarma of the "sacred" fire in favor of parikarma of sacred Gurbani.

56 minutes ago, ipledgeblue said:

I hear during Guru Amar Dass period Anand Sahib may have been read.

Yes, that may be the case.

[Guest IndiraGandhi RSS]

22 hours ago, Guest confused.upset.lost said:

Q1) Can you not call yourself a sikh, unless you are amrtidhari?

This is what we have to force Sikhs themselves to believe. As that way we will reduce these clowns to being a 3% minority in Punjab with Amritdhari role models like the Badals to use as a way to further destroy the Sikh Panth. The genius of using Sikhs themselves to weaken their own Panth is awesome if I do say so myself!

Q2)Is anand karaj ONLY for amritdharees?

This is what we in the RSS and Sant Samaj have to promote amongst Sikhs! As the more these Sikh clowns alienate couples and future generations away from their Gurdwara and local Sangat the better. We need to redouble our efforts at breaking away the links of sehajdhari Sikhs away from their Gurdwara and Panth to hurt them demographically.

 

22 hours ago, Guest confused.upset.lost said:

Q3) How many amritdharees have been FORCED to become amritdhari so that they can fit in, and call themselves a sikh?  

Well it doesn't really matter if one or two might have faked themselves as Amritdhari's to fit in. The main thing is that for every one of them we are breaking away a hundred sehajdhari Sikhs away from their Gurdwara Sangat and it will mean that they and their children are permanently lost from the Sikh Panth thereby weakening those clowns.

Q4) my parent's weren't amritdharee, but they had anand karaj. They both have faith in sikhi, both do bhagti but are NOT ready for amrit yet. Does this mean that I was born out of wedlock (haram) since righteous Sikhs are saying that a couple MUST be amritdhari to validate Anand karaj?

This is exactly the kind of stigma we have to promote amongst sehajdhari Sikhs. The aim of the game is to restrict the number of Anand Karaj's to the 5% of Sikhs who are Amritdhari (like the Badals) whilst simultaneously encouraging sehajdhari Sikhs who wish to get married that they can freely do at the local RSS run Mandir. As it better that the money involved in getting married enriches RSS coffers rather Gurdwara golaks.

Q5) Is this Guru Nanak ji's sikhi is this some new version that I missed along the line?

Given that Guru Nanak married Mata Sulakhani when she was a non-Sikh and brought her into the fold of Sikhi via Anand Karaj we need to work hard to hide this fact. We also need to hide the reality that millions of Sikhs are descended from non-Sikh ancestors who entered the Panth via Anand Karaj (with it being an acknowledgement of their being Sikh by bowing down before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj).