Can a Non-Keshadhari Sikh be the representative/Spokesperson of our Sikh religion (also social religious issues)?

[jkvlondon]

6 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

How?

So are you saying those who have taken Amrit have automatically proved their loyalties and knowledge of Sikhi?

if we are using the model of nihang initiation then if they had gone through the years of sewa , santhiya etc then maybe  else I would do the same as for the mona/sehjdhari  types . I think all parts of our groups need to upp their game , it's too easy for non sikhs to pretend to be us .

I personally hate those dimwits who mimic musley shaved/faded  hairstyles  it just blurs the lines for young impressionable sikh children .

[Singh559]

8 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

How?

So are you saying those who have taken Amrit have automatically proved their loyalties and knowledge of Sikhi?

A person who has taken Khande Di Pahul under Guru Gobind Singh was simply required to pledge his allegiance to the Khalsa Army to fight against Adharm. They simply gave their pind name and identifying things just so they wouldn't dessert.

The making of a Giani takes a lifetime and like Gurbani says, "Virle keyi ke" only the virla individual will be able to commit to such a Path. Guru Sahib made being Khalsa in of itself a Dharm and with kirpa and Rehit, maybe one day, the mind will be steady enough to benefit off Naam.

The expectations were always realistic and reasonable, not everyone had to be a Gyani dhiaani banda to lead the Khalsa nor is that indicative of character and their sacrifice for the Kaum.

[MrDoaba]

2 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

if we are using the model of nihang initiation then if they had gone through the years of sewa , santhiya etc then maybe  else I would do the same as for the mona/sehjdhari  types . I think all parts of our groups need to upp their game , it's too easy for non sikhs to pretend to be us .

I don't really understand your post. Are you now saying only those who have gone through the Nihang style have proved their loyalities and knowledge or are you suggesting it?

[jkvlondon]

Just now, MrDoaba said:

I don't really understand your post. Are you now saying only those who have gone through the Nihang style have proved their loyalities and knowledge or are you suggesting it?

I am saying if you've gone through lowering of your ego through Bani, Sewa  and simran for some years after submitting yourself to Guru ji's rehit before even getting basic recognition as a starting sikh, then why would you allow someone who never fully submitted their minds let alone bodies to Guru ji's sikhi to have a platform to speak on others behalf ? surely it would be better to make sure they were as loyal to sikhi  as knowledgable by testing them in a similar way ..

[MrDoaba]

24 minutes ago, Singh559 said:

A person who has taken Khande Di Pahul under Guru Gobind Singh was simply required to pledge his allegiance to the Khalsa Army to fight against Adharm. They simply gave their pind name and identifying things just so they wouldn't dessert. 

I have heard in Katha that in many cases in order to be eligible for Amrit there was some rather stringent testing.

24 minutes ago, Singh559 said:

The expectations were always realistic and reasonable, not everyone had to be a Gyani dhiaani banda to lead the Khalsa nor is that indicative of character and their sacrifice for the Kaum.

Fair enough.

14 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

am saying if you've gone through lowering of your ego through Bani, Sewa  and simran for some years after submitting yourself to Guru ji's rehit before even getting basic recognition as a starting sikh, then why would you allow someone who never fully submitted their minds let alone bodies to Guru ji's sikhi to have a platform to speak on others behalf ? surely it would be better to make sure they were as loyal to sikhi  as knowledgable by testing them in a similar way .. 

You're not being realistic lol. Not every single Amritdhari has been through everything you've mentioned yet they are given full platform rights. Amritdharis are not tested in the way you're suggesting lol, or well at least not anymore.

The Nihang model is not applicable in the west as even they themselves (real Nihangs) will say one cannot technically be a Nihang in the west under currrent cirumstances. Being a Nihang is a full time commitment to a specific lifestyle.

[MrDoaba]

There were non-Kesdharis/Amritdharis in 1984.

Sikh Youth UK have non-kesdharis in their org.

Jaggi.

The guy from Rajoana TV (although he seems to have gone off the radar)

Preet Kaur Gill MP.

Hell, people on these here forums.

 

Don't hear anyone complaining about the above, and these are just off the top of my head.

Non-Kesdhari/Amritdhari does not equal complete and utter agyaanta, adharmic, bemukh, or someone with no prem/sharda/bhaavna.

 

[Singh559]

17 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

I have heard in Katha that in many cases in order to be eligible for Amrit there was some rather stringent testing.

Fair enough.

You're not being realistic lol. Not every single Amritdhari has been through everything you've mentioned yet they are given full platform rights. Amritdharis are not tested in the way you're suggesting lol, or well at least not anymore.

The Nihang model is not applicable in the west as even they themselves (real Nihangs) will say one cannot technically be a Nihang in the west under currrent cirumstances. Being a Nihang is a full time commitment to a specific lifestyle.

Unfortunately many Kathavachiks may have missold some aspects of our history. Dhadi vaaran are usually more historically accurate because they require the dhadis to actually read some sort of history. Have heard some outlandish things in katha that are antithesis to many old Sikh Granths in terms of history, but many people still prescribe to such individual(s).

In a way, I guess, the most stringent of testing could be willingness to give up their life to Guru. Seems simple, but when you think about it, it definitely is very stringent. Of course there were some more non-politically correct means of vetting some converts as well, but that's a tangent. Same way a person could be Gyaani Dhiaani with a lot of knowledge, but might not be able to control their Mann/Mind and focus on Naam for their entire life whereas an uneducated mute may be blessed with Kirpa of Naam instantly. All is about kirpa, but commonality is bare minimum Rahit.

[Singh559]

9 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

There were non-Kesdharis/Amritdharis in 1984.

Sikh Youth UK have non-kesdharis in their org.

Jaggi.

The guy from Rajoana TV (although he seems to have gone off the radar)

Preet Kaur Gill MP.

Hell, people on these here forums.

 

Don't hear anyone complaining about the above, and these are just off the top of my head.

Non-Kesdhari/Amritdhari does not equal complete and utter agyaanta, adharmic, bemukh, or someone with no prem/sharda/bhaavna.

 

It's natural that we will have people who are not kesh-dhari, but if we look at the political climate of the 1980s - it was a religious movement and not a socio-political one which is why people started to give up drinking, returned to work and started to take Khande Di Pahul en-masse. Sant Ji knew the way to reverse the currents of time and effects of modernity, Guru Sahib's vision of a Khalsa society must be created. Every mona shaheed Singh all respected kesh and eventually would have kept it, as many Singhs did.

I definitely don't condone non-keshadhari hate, nor do I condone saying non-keshadharis are not Sikhs. My point, which I forgot to iterate is that I believe the normalization of non-keshdhari identity shouldn't be promoted. The promoting of non-keshdhari individuals in Sikh seats of power is a de-facto condonation of normalizing non-keshdhari identity which is antithesis to Guru Gobind Singh's hukam.

[Guest]

See when it comes to religion and spirituality , I wouldn't promote non-kesadhari dudes of our panth. 

Sure , if we were to fill in political positions of panth , they're more than welcome. INFACT , putting a haircut turbanless sikh dude into one important position within the international sikh community is a positive image for the panth as it shows we're not so orthodox either and are pretty diverse.

No one is saying turbaned , long bearded, 5K wearing ppl are sant. "Sant" as defined in gurbani are very very broad and deep terms and are one in a million . What most ppl don't realize is external amrit is beginning of a journey , not the destination. 

Its our fault we give undue reverence and thats were we get exploited. I remember growing up in the 90s with these so many sikhi related movies where the monah guy was almost portrayed as villainous and the guilt-trip .. oh ! today moneh are widely accepted. Honestly even the baabey no longer bat an eyelid as much on the sight of widespread moneh but its not something i would promote man for obvious reasons

[Guest]

8 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

I personally hate those dimwits who mimic musley shaved/faded  hairstyles  it just blurs the lines for young impressionable sikh children .

as long as they're considered hotter than the turbans , ppl gonna mimic them and girls gonna drool over em