"Chand" - Is it a Khanda???

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

The Farla Maryada has indeed been explained by the Nishan Sahib angle. Sikhs would go into battle and instead of carrying the Nishan Sahib on a pole, which could get separated from them, trampled on and disrespected, they incorporated the Nishan Sahib into their Dumallas. The Nishan Sahib that is carried to this day is royal blue with no insignia, resembling the Farla.

I can verily argue that the Chand links the Nihangs to the Samurai of Japan and to Shiva, as many of them have a Chand in their helmet as well. So should I begin to make the conclusions that the Samurai were also Shiva worshippers (though I doubt they knew of this diety)?

Of course, the Samurai could have taken their own creative license and forged their own Aadh Chand:

(More likely is that these were metallic renditions of animal antlers that the Samurai also placed on their battle helmets).

Creative license is one thing, but it is indeed strange that none of the paintings that depict Shiva take any creative license in protraying Shiva's symbols. The Chand is always without a Khanda or a Shivling running though it, and the Trishul has always been depicted with its two horns flaring out and the central spearhead, not a Khanda or a Chand. The artisans never took enough creative license to mutuate this into the Aadh Chand that the Nihangs use. This means that only the Nihangs had enough creative license in the entire Indian subcontinent to mutate the status-quo

symbols into their Aadh Chand.

"In fact if we start using images images of Shiva and Hindu gods as historical references for Sikhism, then I guess everything is borrowed from Hinduism. Our long hair, top-knot joora, kara, kashera, Kirpan, etc."

Fact of the matter is that a lot of religions share symbolism and articles of faith that can link all of them to each other. When studying the dress of all the religious traditions, one begins to see many similarities to Sikhism. To make this the basis of making Sikhism a derivative religion of another ancient path cannot be done, as Sikhism shares many of its articles of faith with other faiths:

I can argue that the Jews are really the prototypical Sikhs, as their Old Testament states their priests to keep their hair uncut (Kesh), hear linen shorts (Kacherra?), and dawn a linen Turban? Shall I make the analogy that the Sikhs really are an image of Arab holy men as well, as they are often seen wearing a Khanjar (Kirpan?) and a Dastaar?

[V]

Agreed.

Fair enough if the chang is similar, but what makes you think it's a shivling the middle?

that's just absurd!

I bet you're goign to begin saying that even Samuarias are shiva worshippers and have a shivling int he middle

if the chand was after Shiva, why isn't there any shivling in the chand of Shiva??

[Gurbar Akaal]

the eastern religions accept shiv ji as a diety even in zen bhuddism which samurais practise, here is a bhuddist representation of shiv shakti

[V]

http://www.acupuncture.edu/bob/

Gurbaar Akal

1- Can you provide reference for your claim?

2 - I bet muslims worship Shiva or accept a diety as well as they have a cresent as their symbol...

Also I bet that Vikings also Worship Shiva or accept him as a diety because they have the cresent as a symbol

Praise the lord!

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

No information is provided on the linked picture's page that even states this has anything to do with Zen Buddhism, much less Japan.

There is a picture entitled "Chinese Bandstand" at the bottom of that page...surely you do not equate this to Zen Buddhism as well? Here is the page where the pictures are located:

http://www.acupuncture.edu/bob/

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

P.S. The way the logic and flow of this topic is going, it must be mentioned that Iran and the U.N. are under control of Khalsa Secret Divisions:

:e: :e: :e:

[Gupat Singhni]

As i said in my earier post..

You have to remember that hinduism existed before sikhi so there are certain things that are associated with hindu's but they have a separate meaning in sikhi.

Shiv ji existed before the guru's. Just because he has a chand symbol does not mean that the singh's useage of it relates to hinduism. We have our own SEPARATE meaning different to the one used by hindu's to signify why we wear a chand.

I was told about the suraj vanse and the chand vanse theory by a nihang singh and it fits into the theory of tiyaar bar tiyaar..

[NavjotSinghKhalsa]

Amandeep Singh said :

why go to the trouble of dangling the balls on small closed hooks - surely it woudl have been easier to simply rpoduce littel welded blobs !!!!that explanation is hilarious, absolutely amazing.

Amandeep Singh , in case you did not know (but I am sure you do), the "dangling balls" on hooks you are mentioning are a very recent design. Perhaps not more than thirty years old.

The older "Chand Torrays" were at least four seperate pieces, the central Miri-Piri & Khanda piece, the two handles both connected to a SarbLoh Torra. I don't know your reason to attribute modern day Chand-Torray with Puratans Singhs. They are not from the same era.

Baba Nihal Singh has shown time and time again that he is quite prepared to gloss over some of the less palatable aspects of his own belief system in order to market his own brand of the Buddha Dal lifestyle - but this really does take the biscuit.

I assume you might have the same issues with Baba Nihal Singh of Tarna Dal as the Nangs in UK do. Yes it sometimes is hard for Budhal Dal fans to acknowledge that there is Gurmat outside of their Jhatka-Bhang-Shiva-S

anatan sand box.

Perhaps Baba Nihal Singh Ji's Gurmat and principles are more in line with Baba Deep Singh Ji and Akal Phula Singh Ji of Tarna Dal, than Santa Singh and his gang of Hindu worshipping drug addicts.

Anyways, what is next, connecting the Chand-Torrays to Japanese Samurais, as ms514 has interestingly pointed out.

Also, when you are done laughing at Baba Nihal Singh Ji's comments, please go dig up your historical documentation linking these Astars to Shiv.

[bhainjee]

I thought I would add in my two cents to this discussion.

Whether or not the shape of the "simplified" miri-piri symbol was easy to make, for the purpose of a shastar it is a very well made design.

The middle of a Chand-Torra is a blatant khanda to those who seem to be seeing shivlings everywhere they look (nangs). Let me describe what I mean in terms of a shastar for your dumalla...

The Chand-Torra includes a torra portion as the name suggests (a long mesh sarbloh wire to tightly wrap into your dumalla). To start wrapping your dastaar with a Chand Torra, the torra needs to be either welded into or glued into little sarbloh rounded parts which hook onto the bottom of the Chand (these are shown as useless little dangly things in the present day pin form of the Chand-sans the Torra). This allows for the Torra to be tightly taken over the dastaar while the Chand is held firmly in place. The shape of the Chand with the khanda in the middle allow for a nice little weave through when bringing the Torra around for support. Also, it provides for a nice little gap behind which lars of dastaar can be passed to increase support.

If there were just curved sri sahib's instead of the current Chand shape, people would most definately be calling it a trident as seen in one of the pictures posted previously.

Also, since when did shiva get a monopoly over a crescent/moon shape? The shape could mean anything. Were butter croissants designed after shiva's crescent/moon? I highly doubt it. Some kangay even have a crescent shape on the outter edge, maybe that was taken from Shiva or even better if you grib half of your kaRa in your hand, the part that isn

39;t in your hand looks like a crescent too (a semicircle), is that from Shiva too? Someone has obviously been looking too hard to find something that looks similar to Gursikhi banaa in the Hindu religion.

Regarding the picture of shiva wearing a kashayra-like garment. Before someone says that the kashayra was taken from shiva as well - what else was he going to wear? I don't think bandher-kaschiaan were around then, someone please correct me if im wrong.

A comment about the samurai helmets: Those would be useful in war if you were to drive head first into your enemy. I heard once that Akali Singh's used to wear long sharp shastaars on top of their huuuuuuuuge dumalla for ramming into their enemy (kinda like the old images of the bunga inserts). Ofcourse they wouldn't feel a thing. Whether or not this is true, it is interesting to imagine the possibilities of all the shastaar one can fit into their dumalla:)

[amandeep]

Navjot Singh Khalsa wrote " Santa Singh and his gang of Hindu worshipping drug addicts" . . . oh dear, clearly you would rather descend into childish nme calling than actually exchange ideas.

This thread could go on for hundreds of pages and never be resolved. THe heart of the debate is whether you belive that Nihang symbolism is rooted in Shiv Saroop (as they themsleves believe) or whether you woudl rather accept the revisionist theories.

In a sense, it really doesnt matter. THe Adh Chand symbol is there - the Buddha Dal woudl contend that it is a shiv symbol, and the revisionists woudl contend that it is a miri piri and a khanda knocked out in batches by ham fisted 18th century armourers! So, its your choice, if you want to wear one and you can reconcile the inherent issues with the revisonsint theory then go ahead - wear it with pride. As I said earlier in this topic the 3HOers simply said that the chand wasn't a shiv symbol but it was the swishing of the sword ! they reconciled it and are happy to wear it and you can mke that choice and do the same. But, as anyone with any knowledge of the Buddha Dal will tell you, that symbol is a symbol of the chand and a shivling

Aman