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Kau89r8

Sikhi and Dussehera....

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6 hours ago, Kau89r8 said:

 

This has got me intrigued. 

What are your thoughts?!

 

It's obvious. Dasmesh padshah was slowly (and not so slowly) encouraging a weapons culture amongst Sikhs for the inevitable dharamyudh and self preservation of the panth. 

There are umpteen manifestations of Guru ji's endeavours along these lines, and this is one of them. It's very similar to Guru ji transforming Holi into Hola Mahalla (weapons and horse training).  Or Vasakhi being transformed from a peasant harvest festival, to the birth of the Khalsa with all it's symbology (i.e. steel/strength, casteless unity, sacrifice, commitment, bravery etc. etc.)

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Folks like Dr. Gurnam Singh and his likes are with deep background with communism. It is open secret that communism ideology was targeted all of our sikh scholars/education circle everywhere; particularly in punjab. This is also one main reason why most academics background folks did not strongly supported sikh sangarsh and rights.

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8 hours ago, S1ngh said:

Folks like Dr. Gurnam Singh and his likes are with deep background with communism. It is open secret that communism ideology was targeted all of our sikh scholars/education circle everywhere; particularly in punjab. This is also one main reason why most academics background folks did not strongly supported sikh sangarsh and rights.

I don't think it is just that. A lot of academics have a sort of secular western mindset too. A lot of them have taken the Singh Sabha ideas and have gone to extremes with them. When I was younger, there seemed to be little understanding of puratan Sikh ithihaasic texts (like those we are looking at in this thread), which were all pretty much branded as 'Hindu accretions' because the writers referenced commonly accepted Indic concepts and such in their narratives. I think colonialism sort of created a dual-abrahamic mindset amongst many educated apnay, and they went to extreme lengths to separate Sikhi from Hindu matt, even going to the extreme of vilifying their own historical texts because they couldn't grasp the contexts with the duality mindsets. 

It's really good to see a generation who can study and analyse their own historical texts without the paranoia the olders did. 

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18 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I don't think it is just that. A lot of academics have a sort of secular western mindset too. A lot of them have taken the Singh Sabha ideas and have gone to extremes with them. When I was younger, there seemed to be little understanding of puratan Sikh ithihaasic texts (like those we are looking at in this thread), which were all pretty much branded as 'Hindu accretions' because the writers referenced commonly accepted Indic concepts and such in their narratives. I think colonialism sort of created a dual-abrahamic mindset amongst many educated apnay, and they went to extreme lengths to separate Sikhi from Hindu matt, even going to the extreme of vilifying their own historical texts because they couldn't grasp the contexts with the duality mindsets. 

It's really good to see a generation who can study and analyse their own historical texts without the paranoia the olders did. 

Kinda kills the Teesra / Niara Panth narrative, though, doesn't it? 

Something has to come from something else, but those lines of demarcation are becoming blurred with each day.

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2 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Kinda kills the Teesra / Niara Panth narrative, though, doesn't it? 

Something has to come from something else, but those lines of demarcation are becoming blurred with each day.

I don't agree. Sure, we might not have the ease and comfort of categorisation along the western introduced binary/dual model. But I'm pretty sure that Sikhi can be demarcated along lines that aren't dumbed down and simplistic like that.  

I've often said that the main difference between Hindu matt and Sikhi matt is Sikhi's militaristic egalitarian social vision. Abrahamising or westernising (which are both frameworks built upon binary/duality) Sikhi isn't any sort of solution. Pandering to the lowest intellectual denominator of the panth is stunting our development. As well as reaching down to such people, we have to drag them upwards too (no easy task given certain elements of the panth). 

 

And look at how the example of Dusserha in Sikhi works. It's brought into a Sikh framework for the Sikhi agenda. It's clearly repurposed and adapted to Sikh needs and ideals. It's not some sort of blurring or compromise. 

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3 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

I don't agree. Sure, we might not have the ease and comfort of categorisation along the western introduced binary/dual model. But I'm pretty sure that Sikhi can be demarcated along lines that aren't dumbed down and simplistic like that.  

I've often said that the main difference between Hindu matt and Sikhi matt is Sikhi's militaristic egalitarian social vision. Abrahamising or westernising (which are both frameworks built upon binary/duality) Sikhi isn't any sort of solution. Pandering to the lowest intellectual denominator of the panth is stunting our development. As well as reaching down to such people, we have to drag them upwards too (no easy task given certain elements of the panth). 

And look at how the example of Dusserha in Sikhi works. It's brought into a Sikh framework for the Sikhi agenda. It's clearly repurposed and adapted to Sikh needs and ideals. It's not some sort of blurring or compromise. 

All valid points. The problem, for me, is that very little of the above is enacted on the ground. It's verging on naval-gazing theorising; an idealistic vision of the way things should be, not as they actually are. Surface impressions are also applicable and important; whether they contain any long lasting validity to them is debatable. I don't really see any of the above nuance in even religious Sikhs. The priority seems to be their own little sect within the larger Panth itself than anything approaching an ambitious vision for the whole.

Another important point is where we fit in amongst other religions and communities, and how we navigate and prioritize our own self interests so that our people flourish and prosper in the sense of us not being crowded out, religiously speaking, of existence. There's a need to "hold frame" when surrounded by larger and longer established faiths.

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I heard in a Katha that part of dasam granth is translated from hindu granths and some parts are missing.

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20 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

All valid points. The problem, for me, is that very little of the above is enacted on the ground. It's verging on naval-gazing theorising; an idealistic vision of the way things should be, not as they actually are. Surface impressions are also applicable and important; whether they contain any long lasting validity to them is debatable. I don't really see any of the above nuance in even religious Sikhs. The priority seems to be their own little sect within the larger Panth itself than anything approaching an ambitious vision for the whole.

Another important point is where we fit in amongst other religions and communities, and how we navigate and prioritize our own self interests so that our people flourish and prosper in the sense of us not being crowded out, religiously speaking, of existence. There's a need to "hold frame" when surrounded by larger and longer established faiths.

I hear that. I think the innovations brought in during the colonised period are skewing things and actually causing more serious fractures than good, and we haven't even touched on how it attempted to skew the very nature of Sikhi itself - and I believe the core mystical aspect that was relegated to Victorian era 'rationality' and 'empiricism' as well as the brit colonialist agenda. A lot of our lot are too slow to even grasp this.......

AI agree with your point about 'holding frame' but we at least need to acknowledge the way we've been trying this since annexation isn't working out now.   Turning Sikhi into a 'religion' doesn't work. That thinking is where our alienation from Dasam Bani stemmed from. 

 

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5 hours ago, Kaurr said:

I heard in a Katha that part of dasam granth is translated from hindu granths and some parts are missing.

It's not as simple as that. It's more like adaptation rather than straight translations. The missing parts (usually eulogies of the deities) and adaptations (like amping up the battle/conflicts scenes) are significant.  

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