Sikhs today like Jews before getting Israel

[SikhKosh]

50 minutes ago, proudkaur21 said:

But hindus from punjab are moving to western countries too. I know so many from the city i belong to who now live in canada , australia and what not. Its not just our lot.

There is a bigger emigration from the rural side of Punjab which is Sikh dominated than the urban class which is mostly Hindu dominated.
Besides that the (smaller) emigration of Punjabi Hindus is levelled up by the immigration of migrant workers from UP, Bihar etc in Punjab who are mostly Hindus (with a sizeable Muslim minority).

You can just look at the census for confirmation. Sikhs were 59.9% in 2001 but only 57.69% in 2011 while Hindus rose from 36.94% to 38.49% in the same period.

[proactive]

1 hour ago, californiasardar1 said:

 

Jews like Chomsky are a tiny minority. The vast, vast majority of Jews are very pro-Israel.

Jewish people are in general very intelligent, and that has allowed them to be very successful and influential. The expulsion of Jews shifted the scientific center of the world from Germany to the US and played a huge role in turning the US into a superpower.

Jewish people are about 2% of the population in the US but are highly overrepresented in politics, media, entertainment, finance, tech, law, academics, ... basically any influential profession that matters. Both political parties in the US are extremely pro-Israel for a reason.

In what areas are Sikhs overrepresented? Truck driving? Give me a break ...

 

 

As usual you are talking out of your backside. Liberal Jews dominate most anti-Israel organisations. The whole self hating Jew concept is a very Jewish construct. Jews dominate the democratic party which has allowed the influx of Muslims and Palestinians into the party which has allowed anti-semitism to grow in the party. 

As for truck driving, that is a first generation occupation, if by the third generation the grandsons of the present truckers are still driving trucks you would have a point otherwise you fit well into the self hating tag. 

[proactive]

5 hours ago, SikhKosh said:

A small explanation on both of my claims:

1. Sikhs are becoming a minority in Punjab. We had only 57% Sikhs in Punjab in the 2011 census, if the figures are correctly collected in the next census we should now be in the 49-53% range, with an aging population. Last time I went to Doaba most houses in the villages were either locked or had only the old Sikh (grand)parents living alone. 

I disagree with Proactive: it is impossible to maintain a Sikh majority with the kind of mass exodus of Sikh youth that Punjab has seen in the last decade. It is not comparable to our migration in the last century where it was a more controlled one (except in the 80s 90s). Special steps need to be taken to ensure Punjab remains a Sikh majority, even if just in figures.
Having 4 children is not the only or best solution in an already overpopulated world, we need to do create Khalsa orphanages and do parchar to target the existing population. Can you imagine Muslims opening up orphanages in our East Punjab and getting our children to become Muslims? It is happening which is a shame.

2. Sikhs are becoming influental all over. We collectively need to come out of this victim complex and see the successes that we are booking all over the world. 

• The farm laws getting repealed is a major feat for our qaum. The farmers protest, while not entirely a Sikh movement (with help of leftist parties & other north Indian farmers), it had a major Sikh presence, spirit and got international coverage only because of the Sikh community. This is a major blow to Modi and the first time he has backed down on such a big law. Credit goes to the Sikhs.
• Barring Jaggi's case, where he himself walked into the devil's mouth, we have managed to counter and stop the govt of India in the extradition of Parmjit Singh Pamma in Portugal, half the deportation of three British Sikh youth in the Rulda Sinh case, gotten Vishal Jood deported and so on. It is not a small feat to counter a power like India.
• The Jewish success story is getting outdated. Sikhs are quickly rising all over the world - both on an individual level like SPS Oberoi in the Arab countries, the Rais in Eastern Africa, and the many Sikh multi millionaires and billionaires in the US, Canada and UK. On a collective level we are prosperous everywhere: we have the highest number of house ownership in the UK, higher than even the Jews. Half of the Sikhs in the UK have a second home in the UK. Sikhs in India are one of the wealthiest communities (only behind the Jains and perhaps Parsis).
• Many, including Sindhi Hindus, are embracing Sikhi partly due to our growing influence and networking. See the following comment by the head of Pak Hindu Council himself:
   
• I rest my case. Sikhs are going to become a minority in Punjab in the coming decade but will become even more influental world wide. Lets see how we manage to balance it out and maintain our grip on East Punjab.

You have fallen into the same mindset as the liberals that having less kids is helping the world against over-population. I gave the example of the Jews how their orthodox section will be the vast majority of Jews and the same can be the case with us. It is easier to stay linked to Sikhi through familial ties even when one may not keep the saroop. For converts you need at least two or three generation before the reversion back into the old faith is gone forever. Increasing the Sikh population in Punjab can be done in many way and my thoughts are that increasing the birth rate is the best way. 

1. Increasing the birth rate. If we are able to increase the birth rate and keep it at a rate higher than the non-Sikh population, this would mean that we can still have migration to the west and increase our population in the diaspora and thus increase our economic and political power there as well as retain a majority in Punjab. If roughly half of the Sikh couples who marry this year and every year in Punjab have 4 kids in the next 10 years, and the other half have 3 kids then in the next ten year because the non-Sikh population's birth rate is also declining, our majority would shoot up above 60% again. If this is kept up for the next 10 years after, then we become nearly 70%. After these 20 years even if new couples start to have just 2 kids then we will keep the 70% majority forever because the non-Sikh birth rate will be the same as ours. 

2. Conversion of non-Sikh Punjabis. This is a good option too because it decreases the non-Sikh percentage and increases the Sikh percentage. However the parchar needs to be focussed and tailored to fit the aims and aspirations of the groups that are being targeted. Unfortunately, our parchariks think that they can make a non-Sikh want to take Amrit by just giving them a katha for half an hour. We need to understand that it is well nigh impossible to have the whole Panth as Amritdhari because the whole process towards Amrit is so individual for many people. We need to resurrect the old process towards Sikhi which was always Sangat/Pangat -Sehajdhari-Keshdhari-Amritdhari. There are lakhs of non-Sikhs in Punjab who are already in the Sangat/Pangat group which means that they go to the Gurdwara regularly but are unable to progress to becoming Sehajdhari Sikh because we have essentially deleted that category over the last 50 years. So these people consider themselves as Hindus who frequent the Gurdwara rather than being Sehajdhari Sikhs who have a buy in into Sikhi. Once these people start to consider themselves as Sehajdhari Sikhs and thus on the path to being full Sikhs at sometime in the future then every year we will gain more and more Sikhs. 

3. In Migration of Sikhs from other states into Punjab. This is a situation where Sikligars from Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh are helped financially to migrate to Punjab to increase the Sikh majority. This tribe live in very small Tandas miles from anywhere and their lifestyle is becoming uneconomic. The Sikligars make locks, knives and sometimes even firearms. They have been persecuted by the police of their states for making firearms and the ones who make locks and knives have to spend many weeks away from their Tandas to towns across India to sell their wares. If non-Sikh bhaiyas can migrate to Punjab and many start to live there then why cannot we help these Sikh tribes to also migrate and live in Punjab. The British Sikh Council which works with these tribes have mooted this idea recently. Migration to Punjab is also cost effective because rather than build Gurdwaras and schools in their Tandas they will have access to Gurdwaras and schools in Punjab if they migrate there. 

I agree with you that our diaspora is becoming more powerful but where we disagree is that it is possible to have growth of both the diaspora and Sikhi in Punjab thus ensuring that we have a boost via migration from Punjab and a boost of the Sikh population by an increase in the birth rate if Sikh organisations start to promote larger families again. 

[proactive]

5 hours ago, Premi5 said:

https://www.theweek.in/theweek/statescan/2021/12/23/how-a-tribal-village-in-telangana-turned-to-sikhism.html

How a tribal village in Telangana turned to Sikhism

 By Rahul Devulapalli Issue Date: January 02, 2022 Updated: December 26, 2021 10:22 IST

Guiding light: Children in front of the gurdwara in Gachubhai Thanda | P. Prasad

TO REACH GACHUBHAI Thanda, one has to follow the line of sight of a renowned Hindu saint’s statue. The 216ft-tall statue of saint Ramanujacharya, also called the Statue of Equality, will be unveiled by Prime Minister Narendra Modi in February 2022.

Even within a family, there are people of different faiths, as some members have chosen to convert and some have not. And, that is perhaps why one’s faith has never harboured hate for another here.

The tribal hamlet and its neighbour, a spiritual mascot, lie in Shamshabad, a short drive from Hyderabad. A narrow, dusty lane off the Hyderabad-Bengaluru highway leads to the entrance of the settlement. But for the villagers, Gachubhai Thanda now exists only on paper, as they insist that they live in Guru Gobind Singh Nagar.

It is Sunday morning, and a middle-aged man donning a Patiala shahi pagg—a traditional way for tying the Sikh turban—with a kirpan slung across his chest, guides a heavy vehicle. A little farther away, a youngster in a gol parna (another Sikh turban style) stands outside a small concrete house. And, on reaching the open field, one can see six boys in patka—a smaller under-turban worn by children—playing cricket. One does not need to refer to official records to know that 90 per cent of residents here are Sikhs.

The village has around 500 residents, almost all of whom are Lambadas, listed under the Scheduled Tribes. The conversion to Sikhism happened in the last 20 years or so. The villagers mostly speak Lambadi and a bit of Hindi and Telugu, but no Punjabi. The village has its own gurdwara—Gurdwara Saheb Dashmesh Darbar. The two-storied structure lies on one end of the village, surrounded by farmland.

In its vicinity lives Lakhvinder Singh, who was born Khetawat Deepla. All Sikhs in the village took new names when they embraced the new religion. Lakhvinder, 73, is president of the gurdwara committee. The gurdwara stands on land he donated five years ago. “Life became more meaningful after I converted,”says Lakhvinder, who was among the first converts. He points to a room in the gurdwara premises, and says, “That is where it all started for us.”

Inside the unused room is a two-feet-high tomb. “Our ancestors used to occasionally visit the Nanded Sahib in Maharashtra,”recalls Lakhvinder. “Around 50 years ago, they set a bull free, chanting the name of Guru Gobind Singh. When it died, they buried the animal and constructed a tomb. The elders then placed a picture of Guru Nanak above the tomb and conducted pujas for a long time. In 1996, we raised a roof and turned it into a small temple.”

It was another village elder—Bhagat Singh—who initiated the process of building a gurdwara in the village. Bhagat claims to have visited the Sikh holy sites in Pakistan and also stayed at a gurdwara in Hyderabad for nearly five years to get a deeper understanding of the faith and its tenets.

“In 2001, I consulted Sikh religious leaders on converting our small temple into a gurdwara,”recalls Bhagat, an auto driver. “We were told that it was better to embrace Sikhism if we wished to perform rituals at the gurudwara. Around 70 of us then got initiated into the faith, and we started carrying the five articles mandated by the religion.”

Leap of faith: A youngster in Gachubhai Thanda performing gatka, a Sikh martial art | P. Prasad

According to Bhagat, their strength has grown from 70 to more than 400 now. “Inspired by us, a few from nearby hamlets have also converted,”he says.

A usual day at Guru Gobind Singh Nagar begins at 4am, with hymns and verses blaring from the gurdwara’s speakers. The gurdwara is open for all devotees till 7:30pm. On full moon days and special occasions, a langar is served. Guru Gobind Singh’s birthday is celebrated with aplomb every January 26, so as to not clash with the December birthday celebrations at other gurdwaras. Committee members say at least 5,000 people attend the day-long festivities, with kirtan specialists and religious leaders arriving from Punjab.

A few donors help run the gurdwara, say villagers. “There was good support while constructing the gurdwara,”says Lakhvinder. “The planning and architecture was done by the team from Patna Sahib. A part of the construction material was donated by Nanded Sahib members. A person from Hyderabad, too, helped a lot while building the gurudwara.”

Mohan Singh, 30, is the granthi (priest)—the first from the village. He stayed and trained at a gurdwara in Hyderabad for 13 years before returning to his village. He is also one of the few who can read Gurmukhi.

“We want the younger generation to follow our path,”says Mohan. “When I find time, I teach children about the principles of our religion and its importance. Sometimes, people from other gurdwaras come to teach kirtan or gatka (sword-fighting) to the youngsters.”

The lifestyle and outlook of the villagers has also changed over the years. Tobacco is banned in the hamlet. “Whenever we see someone smoking, we immediately counsel them,”says Dharam Singh, who is in his 20s. “No shops here sell tobacco products. The same goes for alcohol and toddy.”

Also, meat is consumed only if the animal has been killed by jhatka or single strike. That is why some villagers volunteer as butchers from time to time.

Considering the community is small, is it not difficult to find a bride or groom? Dharam says that they have help here, too. “Recently, an elderly Sikh woman from Hyderabad, who has supported us from the beginning, proposed that she could help us find the right match from other parts of the country, including Punjab. If you ask me, I am open to it,”he says.

But village elders say that it is better to marry someone from their own tribe. While many from nearby hamlets may not have converted to Sikhism, says an elder, they have no problem marrying the youth of Guru Gobind Singh Nagar.

The villagers live in harmony with each other, irrespective of their faith. Kethavath Rahul’s family is among the few who have not converted to Sikhism. “My family had migrated to Pune and lived there for many years,”he says. “When we returned, it was a little difficult for me to adjust as everyone here was different. Now I am comfortable with them and I also visit the gurdwara.”

Even within a family, there are people of different faiths, as some members have chosen to convert and some have not. And, that is perhaps why one’s faith has never harboured hate for another here. The villagers proudly say that they have never experienced communal tensions or discrimination. For now, they are all upbeat about the new landmark that is visible from every house in the village—the Statue of Equality.

The Lambadis or Vanjaras have a very long connection with Sikhism. They trace their origin to Rajasthan and they were the main suppliers of the Mughal and other medieval armies and trace their migration to central and south India to the invasion of Aurangzeb of the Dakhan in the late 17th century. Even the British writers in the late 1800s noted that they revered Guru Nanak. The movement of Lambadis towards mainstream Sikhi goes back to the late 70s and early 80s mainly started by individual Sikhs who lived in their areas who set up organisations to do parchar among them. 

[proudkaur21]

9 minutes ago, proactive said:

You have fallen into the same mindset as the liberals that having less kids is helping the world against over-population. I gave the example of the Jews how their orthodox section will be the vast majority of Jews and the same can be the case with us. It is easier to stay linked to Sikhi through familial ties even when one may not keep the saroop. For converts you need at least two or three generation before the reversion back into the old faith is gone forever. Increasing the Sikh population in Punjab can be done in many way and my thoughts are that increasing the birth rate is the best way. 

1. Increasing the birth rate. If we are able to increase the birth rate and keep it at a rate higher than the non-Sikh population, this would mean that we can still have migration to the west and increase our population in the diaspora and thus increase our economic and political power there as well as retain a majority in Punjab. If roughly half of the Sikh couples who marry this year and every year in Punjab have 4 kids in the next 10 years, and the other half have 3 kids then in the next ten year because the non-Sikh population's birth rate is also declining, our majority would shoot up above 60% again. If this is kept up for the next 10 years after, then we become nearly 70%. After these 20 years even if new couples start to have just 2 kids then we will keep the 70% majority forever because the non-Sikh birth rate will be the same as ours. 

2. Conversion of non-Sikh Punjabis. This is a good option too because it decreases the non-Sikh percentage and increases the Sikh percentage. However the parchar needs to be focussed and tailored to fit the aims and aspirations of the groups that are being targeted. Unfortunately, our parchariks think that they can make a non-Sikh want to take Amrit by just giving them a katha for half an hour. We need to understand that it is well nigh impossible to have the whole Panth as Amritdhari because the whole process towards Amrit is so individual for many people. We need to resurrect the old process towards Sikhi which was always Sangat/Pangat -Sehajdhari-Keshdhari-Amritdhari. There are lakhs of non-Sikhs in Punjab who are already in the Sangat/Pangat group which means that they go to the Gurdwara regularly but are unable to progress to becoming Sehajdhari Sikh because we have essentially deleted that category over the last 50 years. So these people consider themselves as Hindus who frequent the Gurdwara rather than being Sehajdhari Sikhs who have a buy in into Sikhi. Once these people start to consider themselves as Sehajdhari Sikhs and thus on the path to being full Sikhs at sometime in the future then every year we will gain more and more Sikhs. 

3. In Migration of Sikhs from other states into Punjab. This is a situation where Sikligars from Madhya Pradesh, Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh are helped financially to migrate to Punjab to increase the Sikh majority. This tribe live in very small Tandas miles from anywhere and their lifestyle is becoming uneconomic. The Sikligars make locks, knives and sometimes even firearms. They have been persecuted by the police of their states for making firearms and the ones who make locks and knives have to spend many weeks away from their Tandas to towns across India to sell their wares. If non-Sikh bhaiyas can migrate to Punjab and many start to live there then why cannot we help these Sikh tribes to also migrate and live in Punjab. The British Sikh Council which works with these tribes have mooted this idea recently. Migration to Punjab is also cost effective because rather than build Gurdwaras and schools in their Tandas they will have access to Gurdwaras and schools in Punjab if they migrate there. 

I agree with you that our diaspora is becoming more powerful but where we disagree is that it is possible to have growth of both the diaspora and Sikhi in Punjab thus ensuring that we have a boost via migration from Punjab and a boost of the Sikh population by an increase in the birth rate if Sikh organisations start to promote larger families again. 

I am not jatt or from farming background so i hope this isnt ignorant but I've heard jatts get labour from up bihar to work on their fields and also alot of jatts who live abroad help these labourers with shelters and caring for their kids. Why cant we get these other sikh groups to help us with this and in this way we can bring them to punjab as well and help them settle and also nris can help invest in making these people secure. I mean I'm always donating anytime someone needs help with house building, education or anything in the villages in punjab. Why not bring people from your own religion rather than bringing these random people to work? Thats how israel works right? They brought in all those different ethnicities of jews to israel.

[proactive]

1 hour ago, proudkaur21 said:

I am not jatt or from farming background so i hope this isnt ignorant but I've heard jatts get labour from up bihar to work on their fields and also alot of jatts who live abroad help these labourers with shelters and caring for their kids. Why cant we get these other sikh groups to help us with this and in this way we can bring them to punjab as well and help them settle and also nris can help invest in making these people secure. I mean I'm always donating anytime someone needs help with house building, education or anything in the villages in punjab. Why not bring people from your own religion rather than bringing these random people to work? Thats how israel works right? They brought in all those different ethnicities of jews to israel.

This was one of the ideas that the British Sikh Council has mooted to help the Sikligars of Maharashtra and Madhya Pradesh to reconnect with Sikhi and improve their economic condition by migrating to Punjab. As far as I know many NRP ( non- resident Punjabis) have put up for their locked up properties for use by the Sikligars. 

[Not2Cool2Argue]

3 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

 

Jews like Chomsky are a tiny minority. The vast, vast majority of Jews are very pro-Israel.

Jewish people are in general very intelligent, and that has allowed them to be very successful and influential. The expulsion of Jews shifted the scientific center of the world from Germany to the US and played a huge role in turning the US into a superpower.

Jewish people are about 2% of the population in the US but are highly overrepresented in politics, media, entertainment, finance, tech, law, academics, ... basically any influential profession that matters. Both political parties in the US are extremely pro-Israel for a reason.

In what areas are Sikhs overrepresented? Truck driving? Give me a break ...

 

 

Your cynicism is showing. It's not that bad. First of all, only recent immigrants do truck driving. Second of all, truck driving is good business. Most unskilled jobs pay minimum wage. But truck drivers can make way better money and usually turn it into self employed business by owning their own truck. 

Thirdly, how can you live in California and not know that the nursing field is completely dominated by panjabis? Also many hospitals have at least 25% Sikh doctors on staff. Most hospitals are much more. 

Before the 2nd generation was always educated, but sadly due to video games, depression and stock market, the current 2nd generation in California is not into studying.

[proactive]

16 minutes ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

Your cynicism is showing. It's not that bad. First of all, only recent immigrants do truck driving. Second of all, truck driving is good business. Most unskilled jobs pay minimum wage. But truck drivers can make way better money and usually turn it into self employed business by owning their own truck. 

Thirdly, how can you live in California and not know that the nursing field is completely dominated by panjabis? Also many hospitals have at least 25% Sikh doctors on staff. Most hospitals are much more. 

Before the 2nd generation was always educated, but sadly due to video games, depression and stock market, the current 2nd generation in California is not into studying.

CaliforniaFu.dhu is a class 1 self hater. Watch how apnay truck drivers are working hard to improve the financial condition for the next generation while fud.hus like him can only bi.tch that we are not  equalling the Jews who have had centuries more than us of living within the western societies. I would venture he probably flips burgers himself. 

 

[SikhKosh]

@Proactive

1. I don't disagree with the having more children policy, but it is difficult to implement because only a select few will head the calls to have more children. Thus I prefer to target existing non Sikh Punjabis and relocation of tribals to Punjab.

2. Agreed about sahajdharis - the concept and acceptance needs to get a major comeback in panthic circles.

3. I tried to reason with Sikh NGOs regarding relocating Sikligars and other tribes to Punjab about a decade ago. These people had a tribal mentality and did not want to leave their hamlets and localities. Some Sikligar children had run away from Punjab schools back then. Things are changing now though as I am seeing Sikligars wanting to have a Punjab connection which is a good thing. Maybe we can see the effects in a decade or so but these people are used to live an independant life and most probably will not be able to 'take' the place or work of Bihari labourers - so we have to create the right atmosphere for them to integrate in Punjabi society.

4. We need to constitute teams of parcharaks who focus on select issues: reconverting the ones we lost to Christianity, reconverting Dera Premis, converting dalits. Because as you say each needs a different approach and mindset.

5. I am not saying that we can not maintain our dominance in Punjab but we need visionary leaders for that. Sadly most of our leaders are only hungry for money and ego. So this is why the coming decade will be an interesting one. Because there is a huge difference between what you and I say on this forum and the ground realities. The truth is emigration will continue and the Sikh birth rate will continue to fall in the coming years (unless some big steps are taken which I doubt).

[Not2Cool2Argue]

On 12/25/2021 at 11:25 AM, SikhKosh said:

Are we headed for the same fate as Jews before the creation of Israel? Our historical homeland is soon going to lose the Sikh majority tag due to emigration and conversions. We are gaining influence all over the world but losing it in our own home, much like the Jews did (albeit in different circumstances).

Are there any other parallels, things to be learnt from the Jews? What can be done to counter this before it is too late ?

One thing we need to learn as a nation though is the acceptance of leaders who may not be as religious as we'd like them to be. Theodor Herzl for the Jews and Mhd Ali Jinnah for the Muslims managed to do more good for their respective Qaums than the religious extremists despite being non believers themselves.

I definitely think so. The jews have traveled the exact same steps we currently are. 

When jewish people first immigrated, it was due to persecution and economic opportunities. Much as we Sikhs are. But then they built huge communities in Europe which attracted more Jewish people from their homeland. Leaving them a minority in their homeland. Similar to Sikhs. 

 

There were different types, the ones in Poland and Russia were poor, not assimilated (had their own complexes) and very orthodox religious. The ones in Germany were educated, not religious and very assimilated. Probably because Jewish people had been longer in Germany. Similar to Sikhs in US/Canada vs UK.

Most Jewish people would start off with jobs like moneylenders, shopkeepers and peddlers. Then slowly get more educated. Similar to Sikhs. 

But as nationalism was on the rise, the Jewish people began to fear and created zionism. Also with rise of communism, many Jewish people joined in, especially the less religious ones. Similar to how less religious Sikhs are becoming woke liberals. 

Also, there are multiple theories about why Jewish ppl are the most recipients of the noble prize. One is that interbreeding between Jewish ppl, and arranged marriages insured that the most intellectual married the most intellectual. This can be measured in their brain cells having more myelin (a type of fat that protects neurons) however this is also the cause of many genetic diseases inherent to Ashkenazi Jewish people. Anyways this is a controversial racial theory. But perhaps arranged marriages could eventually lead to the same results in Sikhs. As doctors marry doctors etc. 

But more importantly, nationalism/right wing and religious hatred is on the rise. And Sikhs are becoming a minority in Punjab. 

If worst comes to worst, most Sikhs will have to defend themselves in their immigrant countries. There will be  pogroms or civil wars or even world wars, the ones who survive will make it to panjab, and will have to fight for it. Not a bad way to win khalistan. The loss of life and genocide is nothing new to Sikhs, keeps them sharp and connected to the past. New ithihaas will be created.

In my opinion, this is a better future. The one I fear is that the world becomes more technologically advanced and globalized, faith and religion lose meaning and purpose. The LGBTQ agenda wins, no families are needed. State is the ultimate moral authority. Like the book written by Ada Palmar Will of Battles