Why Sikhi Is Weak?

[smartsingh24]

I feel Jathas can still provide a valuable service to the panth, in that diffrent jathas have diffrent intepretations of gurbani. Further more, Jathas have a certain niche for 'recruiting' sikh youths not for their cause, but rather for making them into sikhs.

Singha, this can also be done without having jathas. If all Sikhs eliminate jathas and form one strong government this could be done in much efficient way and at much stronger level. How are jathas making Sikhs? By doing parchaar? Then isn’t it what you are against? If not by parchaar then no matter what happens people will still come into Sikhi. I believe, people don’t find Sikhi, Sikhi finds people. Guru Ji sends Sikhi to people’s homes who deserve it.

On another note, I'd assume that these systems you talk of would be instituted with the creation of a khalistan.

Correct. Without Khalistan….well, lets just say without a Sikh country, this cannot be done. At lower level, temporary parchaar is possible but not at a greater level. We lack strong government because we are divided into jathas and each jatha would want to be in control if they take any step toward unity.

but rather that the splits in the jathas have to do with our current situation.

I would say splits in Khalsa jatha.

Would it be inappropriate to think that we have groups within the panth that work for the greater good of the panth? Not like the branches of christianity, but more like groups that work for the greater good of the one?

Two brains better than one and four brains better than two. In other words, work of all groups joined together would be much better than single jatha work. But please elaborate on your idea. What kind of work and in what ways? Can this not be done without jathas? I think if we have one central government, then different groups can be assigned duties and specific tasks. These groups will not have their own version of Sikhi or rehat maryada. Some groups can be assigned duties to do parchaar in some certain parts of the world, other group in some other parts. So basically their job would be to go to the assigned place, do parchaar, and come back. Today’s jathas have no organized way of doing parchaar and each jatha preaches its own version which is further causing splits. One Sikh has different maryada to follow than the other. Big problem. Unity will not come this way and state of the Panth will only go down.

In my opinion, I think that Jathas provide services in that, they teach those that are uneducated. They give amrit to those who have not taken amrit. They spread Guru Ji's words to the masses.

Would these services stop with no jatha? Khalsa Panth can organize these services at greater level. Parchaar can be done in organized ways so no one comes up with his/her own sakhis, interpretations and rehat maryada. Everyone will have to follow approved panthic maryada.

Presently, if jathas are eliminated, then there will be fewer places to educate the uneducated.

If jathas are eliminated there will not be any competition to get more supporters. Elimination of jathas will be one step closer to unity. Everyone will be Sikh and labeling each other will stop. Khalsa Panth together can provide better services. I am not ignoring the seva of jathas but it is all at individual level and we cannot have a bright future with different jathas. Only Khalsa jatha is the way for better future. I only see good coming out of it so far.

you talk about thinking, and using our brains, but that's all it is... if i have a different belief as one of my brothers/sisters, then we're simply using our minds and brains to sort it out, in speech form,. we're exercising our knowledge with each other, and we DEFEND each belief to a TEE! that's FAITH in our beliefs, NOT anger or hate! if i disagree, then i disagree, that's that! it doesn't mean that the other person, all of a sudden, is not my spiritual sibling

there's only disunity if you wish to truly SEE disunity.... you'll be shocked at how much perception plays a role..

so are you saying panth is united? My posts clearly speak of unity of Sikhs. We are all brothers and sisters then why not just have Khalsa jatha and eliminate others. Sikhs must have an agreement on what Sikhi is and what rehat maryada is. If you disagree then tell me how many types of Sikhs are there? Should only be one the way I see it. If there is too much love between Sikhs and so much tolerance then how come you don’t see chardee kala in the panth? How come Sikhi is leaving Punjab? Of course I do have friends who follow different rehat maryada but this kind of acceptance and love does not exist at panthic level but only at personal level.

think the point veer was trying to make was, if there's no credibility in the kathakars we have today, WHO'S gonna teach us how to do it properly?! How will we know who's a real teacher?

Oh my bad. That is a good point. The way a person does katha, gives reference to historical texts and how he applies Gurmat to today’s problems are some of the factors that are used to determine how knowledgeable he is. Situation now is different but once we have a central government, schools will be setup and scholars will teach the students about Sikhi and way to do parchaar. Only graduate students with some type of certification will be allowed to do parchaar. Maybe have Panj Pyare of Akaal Takhat Sahib sign the certificate or maybe some other way. When gurdwaras need a new granthi they will first need to see his certificates and qualifications and then interview him. Of course that requires knowledgeable people in management of Gurdwaras which will never happen until we have different rehat maryadas because then each jatha would want its own rehat maryada being preached at the Gurdwara instead of one panthic approved Akaal Takhat Maryada.

well aside from the historical references that disprove that statement (re: original samparday), i don't agree... again, to me , it's perception... it doesn't bother me when others have different beliefs even tohugh we practice the same religion.... so many TRUE gursikhs have said that there's so many different levels to interpret gurbaani and guru's teachings, and that the only one to really know is Guruji himself..... so i have no issues with other people believing differently.. i'lll still defend mine, and otehrs will still defend theirs...

the point is, we're all still family...... it's your perception that counts..... your faith in GOD is what counts, not your faith in other humans, even if they ARE gursikhs! humans make mistakes, himans can turn evil, GOD can NOT! the beliefs you carry, and the FAITH with which oyu practise them are what matter.... not the fact that your beliefs may be different from that of someone else.... your DEVOTION to what you have learnt is important...

this is basically general talk. There is One type of Sikhi, One Guru, and One rehat maryada. Obviously our beliefs have to be the same when it comes to Gurmat. Forget about spirituality level interpretations. Assume there are two people who want to join Khalsa. One goes to AKJ and another to Taksal. Two different versions. One believes in Raag Maala, other doesn’t. one believes in Keski, other doesn’t. Our faith, our beliefs come from Guru Ji. Gurmat beliefs cannot be man made and our own interpretations are not allowed. Sikhi is what Guru Ji blesses us with. Guru Ji started one type of Sikhi and had no versions to begin with. I am not against Gursikhs but against having different jathas simply because Panth can survive without them.

and who decides what's right? society? you? me? smartsingh? nah... none of the above...there's very little that's truly "right" or "wrong"

Guru Ji does. Gurbani does.

to the question... how are we better with these jathas today?? because we're all so much moore affirmed in our faith..... we feel the "pressure" to understand what whe believe and why we believe it....

and without jathas this is impossible? Do you think there will be no more Sangat or Gursikhs left to encourage you?

take for example, me and smartsingh... it's not a secret that we believe in different things.... look at that "ur views" thread... we went right at each other, but neither of us backed down from our beliefs... that's STRONG! that's HEALTHY! and it shows that we're both committed faithfully tro what we believe in... you may PERCIEVE it to be that we hate each other, and we disagree because of jathas, but you're wrong! cuz that's not the case with myself, and i can't imagine it being the case with smartsingh veerji.

this actually proves my point. Just for one belief you guys had long fight of four pages but never reached an agreement. You can call it healthy but when jatha fights with each other it is not healthy. Just few issues have caused fights for 100 years at least and it is still not over. Fights don’t bring eakta or strength in the panth but only weaken it. Chatrik’s post was the best solution but I think hardly anyone paid attention to it. “your beliefs” “my beliefs” what is all this? If you talk about faith in Guru Ji then there is no “my” or “his” it is all Guru Ji’s rehat but the fact is that with different versions you cannot pick one and call it Guru Ji’s. can the panth have better future with different maryadas and different beliefs? It is different beliefs that have weakened the Panth. Gurmat is Guru Ji’s way not our way. If Sikhs don’t even have an agreement on what Gurbani is, how can you expect any chardee kala in the Panth?

JUst because you DON'T like them, doesn't justyfy taking them away.... your points are mainly based on theories....we're WITNESSING the strength in our sikhi every day....

I never said I hate jathas. just look at what happened in AKJ and Taksal last year. Splits, fights etc. is this strength? Sikhi at your personal level may have increased but at panthic level Sikhi is going down. Only 12% of Sikhs are amritdhari in Punjab and majority do drugs including some percentage of girls. abortion in sikh families is being practiced at very high rate. Compare these numbers to 1984. yup what a strength. You can look into our 500 years of history and find out if my “theories” are correct. A powerful country was setup only after 12 misls had to go and there was no sign of it later on. The country wasn’t even built on Sikh principles but it was powerful. We can have even more powerful country in the future only if we join together in Khalsa jatha so there is no sign of any jatha left.

i dunno what you're thinking though.. like... we all have on rehit, and all of a sudden there won't be female infanticide in punjab? there won't be drugs in punjab?

This can only be stopped by doing parchaar. I have explained before how parchaar can be done in better ways.

and you don't jus play around with Sikhi... you can't jus be like "well, let's do it and find out!" cuz if our future status quo becomes worse than our present status quo, then we'll have hell to pay....

if you actually think about it, it is not playing around with Sikhi. Where have I said that lets eliminate jathas and see what happens? Can you show me? I gave my reasons. Eliminating jathas is only the first step. And have we not paid enough after 1984? Punjab under the oppression of the government wasn’t hell? If the freedom groups were ONE, our movement would’ve survived longer. Our future depends on ekta.

VERY STRONG POINT... "you're 15, you're stupid, don't talk"... nicely done.

Why take it out of context. Neither did I write those words nor implied. Totally your perception. So far I have not written anything out of anger and made no personal attacks. It is you who is trying to turn things this way.

perception...what YOU see as fighting, others may see as reaffirmation of faith, as i've said before....

turning your back on it doesn’t change things singh ji. Fights bring faith? I don’t think so. Points stated in my first post only weakened the panth not strengthened it. I am only discussing how we can have a better future. I am not here to force my beliefs on anyone and not here to convert anyone. that is what jathas do.

Something for you to consider: Turbans coming off in the gurdwaras, fighting with swords inside gurdwaras over tables and chairs, AKJ and Taksal fighting over Raag Maala at Akal Takhat, Takhat jathedars fighting with each other, turban ban in france, kirpan banned in government places and planes, lack of parchaar (refer to Simran’s post), labeling each other (Vicky has a new label now), turning everything into jatha vs. jatha……..it goes on. Do you see it as reaffirmation of faith? These fights have only weakened the panth. Jathas are so busy in fights that they have not paid much attention to our orphan generation. You do remember them, don’t you? Our brothers and sisters are in jail since 1984. our literature stolen in 84 is still not returned. Criminals of 84 are still not punished. No jatha has paid attention to this matter. If panth is not united, this will continue and we will never accomplish anything. Good people in jatha are mostly old and in next couple of years they will leave us. Majority of the youth his going off path and turns everything into jatha vs. jatha fight. Sangat, smagams, Gurbani kirtan, inspiration and everything else will still be here but no jatha. If there is no jatha, there will be no labeling and then we can get serious about panth and our future. Only Khalsa. It is unfortunate that majority of Sikhs always act after the time has passed and then all we are left with is regrets. Jathas will have to go whether panth acts on it today or in next 50 years. Time will tell. There has been enough question answers. unless you can prove how we can have permanent ekta, how jathas can do organized parchaar and how we can have a Khalsa Raj with different rehat maryadas and jathas, this discussion is over for me. Think only in terms of future. Stay in chardee kala.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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umm... quotes aren't working, so forgive me if I leave nething out cause at this point i'm just fed up with doing this quote /quote thing and nothing working.

1. Singha, this can also be done without having jathas. If all Sikhs eliminate jathas and form one strong government this could be done in much efficient way and at much stronger level. How are jathas making Sikhs? By doing parchaar? Then isn’t it what you are against? If not by parchaar then no matter what happens people will still come into Sikhi. I believe, people don’t find Sikhi, Sikhi finds people. Guru Ji sends Sikhi to people’s homes who deserve it.

You're absolutley correct. Sikhi does find people. But I don't think that just by sitting around somewhere and expecting someone to show up and say "I wanna be a sikh" is how it normally goes. This is why I believe leading by example is the best solution to everything...well almost everything. I wanna be, no I AM the guy that believes that if a person sees something like 10 guys holding their own raensbahee and no one shows up and they still hold it, they're gonna go "wow, that's pretty cool". Parchaar is not the only way to get to sikh youth. More often than not, you'll end up angering the opposite party.

2. Correct. Without Khalistan….well, lets just say without a Sikh country, this cannot be done. At lower level, temporary parchaar is possible but not at a greater level. We lack strong government because we are divided into jathas and each jatha would want to be in control if they take any step toward unity.

I doubt it would be the jathas, rather than the people. Let's face it, our religion has some followers that are less than great. Who would lead khalistan? And there in lies something that no one should really have to decide. Because of the very idea of a Khalistan, people would leap at the chance to get that much power.

3.Two brains better than one and four brains better than two. In other words, work of all groups joined together would be much better than single jatha work. But please elaborate on your idea. What kind of work and in what ways? Can this not be done without jathas? I think if we have one central government, then different groups can be assigned duties and specific tasks. These groups will not have their own version of Sikhi or rehat maryada. Some groups can be assigned duties to do parchaar in some certain parts of the world, other group in some other parts. So basically their job would be to go to the assigned place, do parchaar, and come back. Today’s jathas have no organized way of doing parchaar and each jatha preaches its own version which is further causing splits. One Sikh has different maryada to follow than the other. Big problem. Unity will not come this way and state of the Panth will only go down.

Well, when you take away jathas, create a government, and then form groups within that government, what are you doing? You're creating more groups. And that's where the plan is faulty. You can eliminate Jathas, but you're only eliminating the names. Wouldn't you think that people that were once part of Jathas would still hang out together? Maybe even go work for the same group together? You can get rid of the Jathas in name, but not in spirit. I don't know if there is a way to get rid of them, because they're groups. Sure they wouldn't officialy have their own rehat maryada, but what would happen if they added onto the maryada? or didn't follow certain rules? Isn't that what we have now? If you discover someone hasn't been following the rehat maryada, or has been adding their own rules to it, do you report them? And if so, would they get punished? And that is where this brings me. If you wanna make one rehat maryada, would it be an absolute certainty that everyone would follow it? If they didn't, they would they get punished? Because if so, then you're forcing your beliefs onto someone else, and there in lies the fault in forcing everyone to accept one maryada. There will always be stragglers, rebels, mavericks, what ever you want to call them. Obviously, it's easy to see the ones that would turn this post around into trying to make me seem as if people like Kala and RSS aren't bad. What I'm trying to say here, is that it's easy to pick out the anti-panthic ones, but what about the ones that want to worship guru ji in their way that might still be following some jatha's maryada?

4.Would these services stop with no jatha? Khalsa Panth can organize these services at greater level. Parchaar can be done in organized ways so no one comes up with his/her own sakhis, interpretations and rehat maryada. Everyone will have to follow approved panthic maryada.

No, they wouldn't, but with more groups, none of which I regard as particularly anti-panthic, wouldn't there be a better chance of getting someone to take amrit? or partake in educating themselves? And again, check the response to #3 'cause it adresses the last sentence.

5.If jathas are eliminated there will not be any competition to get more supporters. Elimination of jathas will be one step closer to unity. Everyone will be Sikh and labeling each other will stop. Khalsa Panth together can provide better services. I am not ignoring the seva of jathas but it is all at individual level and we cannot have a bright future with different jathas. Only Khalsa jatha is the way for better future. I only see good coming out of it so far.

Here I have a major problem. Maybe it's the way you worded it, but the way it looks like, it's that the elimination of jathas would be only a step on a road map. True, it could be a step closer to unity, but it could also be a step closer to chaos. And I doubt everyone would stop labeling each other, just that there would be only two labels left: Panthic & Anti-Panthic. Does that help anyone? And also, it isn't that Jathas are the best, cause they aren't. Jathas are better than nothing at all, but Khalsa Panth must be put first, because it isn't better than jathas, it's the BEST. Khalsa Panth is the way for to a better future, but that future is just that, a future. It hasn't arrived yet, but when it does, it'll be pretty obvious when it has.

6. so are you saying panth is united? My posts clearly speak of unity of Sikhs. We are all brothers and sisters then why not just have Khalsa jatha and eliminate others. Sikhs must have an agreement on what Sikhi is and what rehat maryada is. If you disagree then tell me how many types of Sikhs are there? Should only be one the way I see it. If there is too much love between Sikhs and so much tolerance then how come you don’t see chardee kala in the panth? How come Sikhi is leaving Punjab? Of course I do have friends who follow different rehat maryada but this kind of acceptance and love does not exist at panthic level but only at personal level.

I don't think that Sikhi leaving Punjab is our fault, as so much it is India's. Do you think we're the first to have religion leave our homeland? What abour the Israelis? The Palestinians? The Christians? They all experienced a drop in their respective religions after a genocide. There is only one type of Sikh. Anyone that doesn't see they're fellow sikh as a brother or siste, isn't a sikh according to the Akal Takht Maryada.

7. Oh my bad. That is a good point. The way a person does katha, gives reference to historical texts and how he applies Gurmat to today’s problems are some of the factors that are used to determine how knowledgeable he is. Situation now is different but once we have a central government, schools will be setup and scholars will teach the students about Sikhi and way to do parchaar. Only graduate students with some type of certification will be allowed to do parchaar. Maybe have Panj Pyare of Akaal Takhat Sahib sign the certificate or maybe some other way. When gurdwaras need a new granthi they will first need to see his certificates and qualifications and then interview him. Of course that requires knowledgeable people in management of Gurdwaras which will never happen until we have different rehat maryadas because then each jatha would want its own rehat maryada being preached at the Gurdwara instead of one panthic approved Akaal Takhat Maryada.

I'm not too sure I'm in agreement with all this certificate stuff. Some of the best granthis and katha wale haven't had to go to school for their certificates. Why should we? It doesn't make sense, because the only thing that should be a requirement is love of sikhi.

8. this is basically general talk. There is One type of Sikhi, One Guru, and One rehat maryada. Obviously our beliefs have to be the same when it comes to Gurmat. Forget about spirituality level interpretations. Assume there are two people who want to join Khalsa. One goes to AKJ and another to Taksal. Two different versions. One believes in Raag Maala, other doesn’t. one believes in Keski, other doesn’t. Our faith, our beliefs come from Guru Ji. Gurmat beliefs cannot be man made and our own interpretations are not allowed. Sikhi is what Guru Ji blesses us with. Guru Ji started one type of Sikhi and had no versions to begin with. I am not against Gursikhs but against having different jathas simply because Panth can survive without them.

Duno how to respond exactly, because most of what you said is purely theoretical. We don't know what would happen.

9. and without jathas this is impossible? Do you think there will be no more Sangat or Gursikhs left to encourage you?

No, but it would more than probably be people you already knew.

10. this actually proves my point. Just for one belief you guys had long fight of four pages but never reached an agreement. You can call it healthy but when jatha fights with each other it is not healthy. Just few issues have caused fights for 100 years at least and it is still not over. Fights don’t bring eakta or strength in the panth but only weaken it. Chatrik’s post was the best solution but I think hardly anyone paid attention to it. “your beliefs” “my beliefs” what is all this? If you talk about faith in Guru Ji then there is no “my” or “his” it is all Guru Ji’s rehat but the fact is that with different versions you cannot pick one and call it Guru Ji’s. can the panth have better future with different maryadas and different beliefs? It is different beliefs that have weakened the Panth. Gurmat is Guru Ji’s way not our way. If Sikhs don’t even have an agreement on what Gurbani is, how can you expect any chardee kala in the Panth?

Was this a jatha fight? No. And besides that, there was pretty much nothing solid in there that really adressed the issue at hand. No solid gurbani quotes. Just quotes from STTM that were just as cryptic as the issue. And it's not the diffrences that weaken the panth, it's the people. And it'll be a while before anyone can agree on gurbani, merely because there will always be people looking to pick or instigate a fight. Once we learn to tune these people out, then there will be chardi kala in the panth.

11. I never said I hate jathas. just look at what happened in AKJ and Taksal last year. Splits, fights etc. is this strength? Sikhi at your personal level may have increased but at panthic level Sikhi is going down. Only 12% of Sikhs are amritdhari in Punjab and majority do drugs including some percentage of girls. abortion in sikh families is being practiced at very high rate. Compare these numbers to 1984. yup what a strength. You can look into our 500 years of history and find out if my “theories” are correct. A powerful country was setup only after 12 misls had to go and there was no sign of it later on. The country wasn’t even built on Sikh principles but it was powerful. We can have even more powerful country in the future only if we join together in Khalsa jatha so there is no sign of any jatha left.

Again, the stuff in India isn't our fault, it's India's fault. People have abandoned their faith because they don't wanna go back to the religion that 'caused' them all this problem. They were the only ones singled out. No one else, just the Sikhs. So the solution for them is to live in fear, reject their religion, and look like a hindu so that if anything happens like this again, then you don't get killed. It's the wrong idea, but it's all India's fault.

[japmans]

First off:

Bijla Veerji, i'm sincerely sorry if you found my words harsh, and i'll make a more conscious effort to choose my words. I honestly was in no way, intending to come across as harsh, (hehe..except with that "15 and stupid" comment )

and who decides what's right? society? you? me? smartsingh? nah... none of the above...there's very little that's truly "right" or "wrong"

Guru Ji does. Gurbani does.

i think we may be heading into circles here... i'm saying there's so many different levels of interpretation for gurbaani.... so, in essence, to say that gurbaani will decide what is right and wrong also will result in different ideas of what is right and wrong...

I'm not too sure I'm in agreement with all this certificate stuff. Some of the best granthis and katha wale haven't had to go to school for their certificates. Why should we? It doesn't make sense, because the only thing that should be a requirement is love of sikhi.

most definitely in agreement... i'm wondering if our knowledge should really be possessed through being "booksmart".... i dunno if litereary knowledge is what's going to help and save kathakars... you can't teach love, and you can't teach faith... it comes to you...

in reference to the whole multiple-jathas thingie.... i'm honestly feeling like we're going to be disagreeing on a whole, so i won't make too many arguements, just because we'll be going back and forth and may lose focus as to the topic at hand..

You'll see a lot more hatred, and alot more "anti-gurmat" acts, if we try reforming into "one rehit maryada"... (i SWEAR i'm not jatha bashing, but i'm taking examples.)

Recently on tapoban.org, we all are aware of the raagmaala debate.

A poster asked if tapoban would actually be cool with raagmaala if akal takht got up and said "raagmala is baani, and it must be read".... the ONLY response it garnered was:

"yes, it will be accepted, but only if akal takht reaches this conclusion after Discussing this with sangat"

this is what i take from that.... if this discussion actually did occur, and akal takht really did decide raagmaala was baani....and thus that was made THE rehit...(as far as raagmaala goes...) would there really be love and unity?

MY guess is that tapoban singhs/singhnees would have SO MUCH resentment towards akal takht, and would CONTINUE to disprove raagmala and continue to not read it...you m ay have a few that actually do, but based on principles, i have a feeling the strong majority would continue to disregard raag maala....

So, then what: excommunicate tapoban? in that case, sikhi may acatually get weaker (both in numbers and in faith)... and i say "in faith" because then the image becomes "well, if you do something different, you're outta here"...and i think that takes a great dela of the "universality" away...

I'm not saying we should be so weak that anything should be able to be constituted as sikhi... but i'm saying different jathas have evolved to find different methods of accomplishing different things, and, as we said... finding different people... Sikhi is universal, and it truly is for everbody, and eventually it will find everybody...

but now i'm wondering.... out of curiosity, what does this really mean....

"in my opinion people don't find sikhi, sikhi finds people"....

i'm not sure i get it...

Bijla Veerji, i think the issue of elder gursikhs having more love and being more true... i think it's unfair to say that all us young folk are just punks... i'm sure if you ask many of these elders, they'll say the same things, that, they were firm in their principles, and maybe even did get into arguements with others (a couple stories do come to my mind right now), but with age, you just come to realize what really is more important...

I highly doubt that, at the age of 75, me and smartsingh24 are gonna be at each other throats as to who can do keertan... i think with age and with spiritual wisdom, ppl learn to realize that what really matters is the positives you can take from sangat, whether it be akj, ddt, nihungs, sadhsangat, sangat1, sanagat 3, sangat 4... and i tihnk, if anything, the sooner we learn to eralize what's important (i.e, not discussin trivial issues, and focussing ourselevs on rehit), that's when you'lll see the greatest strides...... I mean, we always say that sikhi will be in its strongest state when the maximal amount of people are strong in rehit... i don't think that means that each person has to have the SAME rehit, but that the faith, and the affirmation of faith in your rehit be there..to me that's what i think is most important..cuz when you truly have that, i dunno, i just don't think if you're truly faithful, then any of these little things matter, and you realize baani for what it is... personal, universal, and a saviour.

and once again, it's not that i don't see what you're trying to say, but it's just that i'm not sure i agree entirely.

[ssk]

Damn ssk. That's just mean    :'(

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its not mean

its true

the guy spends his life on the computer

can't even figure out how to use quote tags

[Bijla Singh]

For me this is not a competition that I have to win. I only want some solutions. It is very easy to criticize and point out mistakes but hard to come up with solutions. So far, you two have only picked something out that you can criticize but failed to provide an alternate solution. The only way to solve problems is to work together. Sant Jarnail Singh Ji said that when Sikhs realize that they want to be free from the chains of slavery, only then they can get Khalistan. You can read Bhai Rama Singh Ji's book on Khalsa Raj. I find it stupid when people question the abilities of Sikhs to setup a country that will last for a long time. Gursikhs in 18th century had no law, economic degrees but the country they setup was way better than others. Every time Gursikhs ruled Punjab, it was the best. We need to think about our future. If we want something in future then we should act in the present because future will never arrive because soon future will become our present. Eliminating jathas is not just elimination of names but overall differences then you will see Meri Sacchi Sarkar will do kirpa and bless us with Khalsa Raj. Until we realize the need to get rid of jathas and all differences the fights will continue and panth will keep going down. Guru Ji has not blessed us with raj because Khalsa is not united. Khalsa is not jatheband. I have explained earlier how jathas do not serve the same purpose anymore. jathas have turned their faces toward jathedaris, power, and greed. the youth will be heading these jathas and it is the youth that have numerous problems accepting each other because there is "pressure" from the jatha to defend "their beliefs" rather than showing some humbleness and trying to learn from each other which are Sikhi qualities.

I don't think that Sikhi leaving Punjab is our fault, as so much it is India's. Do you think we're the first to have religion leave our homeland? What abour the Israelis? The Palestinians? The Christians? They all experienced a drop in their respective religions after a genocide. There is only one type of Sikh. Anyone that doesn't see they're fellow sikh as a brother or siste, isn't a sikh according to the Akal Takht Maryada.

"Manno Saddi Daatree tay Aseen Manno De Soe.." i think you can fill in the rest and you will get your answer. Drop in the population is different than drop in chardee kala. Sikhi leaving Punjab is our fault because it is our responsibility to educate our future generations about Sikhi. isn't this the same reason you used to keep jathas?

I'm not too sure I'm in agreement with all this certificate stuff. Some of the best granthis and katha wale haven't had to go to school for their certificates. Why should we? It doesn't make sense, because the only thing that should be a requirement is love of sikhi.

by not having santhiya and complete understanding of Gurbani we cannot solve issues like raag maala. Love is not blind in Sikhi. Guru Ji himself gave santhiya to Gursikhs and started schools. Takhat Damdama Sahib is called Guru Ki Kashi. Guru Ji sent some Sikhs to hardwaar and banaras to learn sanskrit. it is funny that to receive worldly education a person goes to school for at least first 25 years of his life but for Sikhi, the saccha marag, we need to have no knowledge about it. love comes from understanding.

Again, the stuff in India isn't our fault, it's India's fault. People have abandoned their faith because they don't wanna go back to the religion that 'caused' them all this problem. They were the only ones singled out. No one else, just the Sikhs. So the solution for them is to live in fear, reject their religion, and look like a hindu so that if anything happens like this again, then you don't get killed. It's the wrong idea, but it's all India's fault.

may be the case for some but not all. It is our fault that we abandoned our brothers and sisters who sacrificed for the Panth. We abandoned the children of those who gave their lives for the panth. we abandoned those who are in jails for over 20 years. If couples of sheep tell a lion that he is one of them, whose fault is it? the government very well knows that sikhs are busy in jatha fights, and are not united which is why they are humiliating us in the movies, and attacking us everyday. When lions stop roaring they are no better than sheeps. read Bhai Rama Singh Ji's convo with Shaheed Singh and you will see why Khalsa has become so feeble.

people don't find sikhi, sikhi finds people

you can spend years and years to find the true way but until Guru Ji wishes to bring you into Sikhi, you can do nothing. Bhai Fauja Singh Ji was not given Amrit for first couple of times and so was the case for many people. read Rangley Sajjan.

Bijla Veerji, i think the issue of elder gursikhs having more love and being more true... i think it's unfair to say that all us young folk are just punks... i'm sure if you ask many of these elders, they'll say the same things, that, they were firm in their principles, and maybe even did get into arguements with others (a couple stories do come to my mind right now), but with age, you just come to realize what really is more important...

mostly I agree but do you know why four sons of Guru Gobind Singh Ji are called "Baba"? They were smarter than 75-80 year old people because they had true understanding of Sikhi. Now, if you already know what is more important then why wait until you get older? why not apply it now and save some time and work together for the betterment of our future?

let me assume just for a minute that you are totally right that we need to keep jathas then address these questions. how can we have permanent ekta, how jathas can do organized parchaar and how can we have a Khalsa Raj with different rehat maryadas and jathas? if you do not support keeping jathas but are not against getting rid of them either because you see some problems in that then what should the solution be?

I guess it is bhana of Guru Ji to keep the jathas so that everybody can realize in the future that keeping them was a big mistake. future will reveal everything. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[smartsingh24]

lol and i'm in agreance with japmans. No more long posts for me , gotta give the fingers a break