Why Sikhi Is Weak?

[Simran9]

Heres another thing that just came to my mind:

Look at christianity....they had 1 man who sacrificed his life and today it has the largest number of followers.

Look at sikhi......its LOADED with shaheedi of soo many ppl it probably can't be counted....probably everyday of the calendar has someone that died for sikhi.

So what made another religion spread so much based on 1 person when another based on soo many couldn't? well one thing is they do lots of missionary work....but forget that....you can look at missionary work as doing parchaar.

In sikhi, when a new person comes up to do parchaar, sometimes that person gets popular. So popular that loads of ppl start flocking around him and attend his diwaans in the thousands of ppl. If theres one parchaarak born, theres hundreds maybe thousands who were born to stop him from doing parchaar.

OUr own ppl are chopping us down from spreading. One who's been doing kirtan/katha for 20 years wonders why the other person who's been doing it for 5 years has so many more followers. How come he has been able to encourage 100000 to shak amrit, when I couldn't encourage 100 ppl? Jealousy.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Guru Sahiban also ade the Manji and Masand systems...they became corrupted and lost their purpose. We cannot hold them in any regard. I am not trying to equate them to the Sampardayas, but the touchstone of judgement is Gurbani and Gurmat...not whose lineage is trackable back to the Guru Sahiban.

Guru Sahib made many orders...but he was part of only one...the Khalsa Panth. Always keep that in mind.

[SSM]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

There is one thing I have faith in and that is Waheguru and if Waheguru told Guru Gobind Singh Ji to create this Khalsa then Waheguru will protect it and so I have complete faith in Waheguru to make sure there are Singhs in all the Gurdwaras in 50 or 100 or 50000 years. :nihungsmile:

As for Christianity, I think what is interesting is that it teaches that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus whereas us Sikhs (me in particular) tell people that Sikhi is the best but all religions worship the same God.Maybe it is the fear of hell that ensures so many converts (that's my off the top of my head guess).

But I like Sikhi small in number, reduces the chance of getting a bad name like Islam. A Jew once told me that Sikhs are those that they look upto as being humble, strong, honest, fight for justice and cannot remember what else he said.

I have not heard anyone speak so greatly about anyother religion.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

[Shaheed]

Christianity has only 1 prophet and he died for his faith (judaism)

Sikhs had 10 spirtual guides/prophets/Guru's. of which many showed us sacrifise as well.

in terms of shaheeds i would say chrisians have died in the name of religion the same MAYBE more then sikhs soooo far. why do i say this?

Ruler ship under Rome- the persecution of christians continued......christians only got saved after the ruler of rome Constantine coverted to christianity soo almost 400 yrs of death like the sikhs soo really they have suffered tooo

that was a small correction i thought i should add in :T:

[smartsingh24]

Why Sikh Panth is too weak these days? Power of Sikhi comes from Gurbani, Rehat and Gurdwaras.

1) Gurbani

There is controversy on the beginning of Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Mool Mantar) and on the ending (Raag Maala). Major part of Dasam Granth (source of Birrass) is totally unknown to the majority of Sikhs and is being questioned. These unanswered questions on Gurbani cause lack of faith in Guru Ji which is why many of the Sikhs today are confused. Without complete faith in Guru Ji there cannot be unity in Sikhi. Also, Bhai Gurdaas Ji’s Kabits are very rarely discussed and hardly any kathavaachak will shed some light on it. Lack of faith in Gurbani causes confusions about Rehat.

2) Rehat

Next source of power is Gurmat Rehat. Khanday Da Amrit has many controversies attached to it. Is the 5th kakkar Kes or Keski? Amrit Banis are three or five? How long are Rehraas Sahib and Chaupai Sahib? Is jhatka allowed under some circumstances? Should Bibis be allowed in Panj Pyare? These questions can never be answered until Sikhs have one stand on what is Gurbani and what is not.

3) Gurdwaras

Last source of power. There are many Gurdwaras today but not under our control. Indian government agencies and their agents control our main Gurdwaras. Akal Takhat, our political sovereignty, is under control and therefore cannot serve the purpose of uniting the Panth. How can we have a political sovereignty when we don’t even have an agreement on Gurbani and Rehat? These days jethedars are taking sides with some jathas when they were supposed to be neutral. Million of dollars are being spent on building new Gurdwaras but hardly any Gurdwara serves the purpose of Sikhi. Followers of Bhagat Ravidaas are opening their own gurdwaras, caste is the major issue in fights and not to mention tables and chairs. Remember one thing “Pakkay Sikhs can build pakkay Gurdwaras but pakkay Gurdwaras cannot make Pakkay Sikhs”. By losing Gurbani and Rehat, Sikhs have lost their Gurdwaras.

Sometimes I think some anti-Sikh powers started these controversies to cause fights and to busy Sikhs into others things so that Sikhs won’t be able to unite together and establish their own powerful raj. First, Sikhs will have to decide on Gurbani and Dasam Granth. Then comes Rehat and when there is unity on Gurbani and Rehat controlling and running the Gurdwaras will be an easy task. In ancient times, Gursikhs had differences but when it came to Gurmat they were all one and solved matters according to Gurmat. Now, many people do have their stand on some of the issues but cannot justify them according to Gurmat. Rather, they choose “critical thinking” and “liberal” ways. Most of the people do not discuss Gurbani because they just simply don’t know much about it. We are busy in fighting over whether gays are accepted in Sikhi and whether monays can do kirtan on Gurdwara stages? This way we can show how “smart”, “educated” and “liberal” we are. Not having enough knowledge about Gurbani and Rehat causes these fights. If we know the message of Gurbani and what Gurmat is, deciding whether chairs are allowed in gurdwaras or whether monay can do kirtan inside the Gurdwara shouldn’t cause a big fight. I do not think Guru Ji will bless us with Raj until we resolve all these matters and until there is only ONE type of Sikh.

Maybe you didn’t understand a single bit of my post but it is something to think about. We lost Gurbani (Saint) Dasam Granth (Soldier) then Rehat (Roop of Guru Ji) then political sovereignty (Akal Takhat). Without Gurbani and Rehat there is no Khalsa. If there is no Khalsa there is nothing but gulami and suffering for Sikh panth. Think about it. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

87011[/snapback]

I just feel this topic has gone way out of the original purpose, so i'll post the original and then my response

1. I don't know anyone who fights over where mool mantar ends, but I'd be pretty sure in assuming that people that do that are just fighting over nothing. Does it matter so much when mool mantar ends? As a sikh aren't you supposed to recite all of japji sahib not just the mool mantar? If so, then why argue over where it ends? Second thing to adress, i'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at when talking about dasam granth. It is unknown to many, but there's more nay-sayers than those that choose to accept it for whatever it is.

2. Does it matter which is 5th kakar? If you look at it logically, you're supposed to keep your hair because if you don't, it's a bujjar kuherat (sry bout spelling), and you're supposed to keep it covered because it's disrespectful to keep it uncovered in guru ji's presence. So, if you have hair, you need to cover it. If the person arguing opposite you is cutting his/her hair, why argue, because they're trying to justify and you're trying to make others conform. All the other stuff is pretty neatly outlined by akal takhat's rehat maryada, and is the basis for pretty much all other maryadas. Except for women in the panj, but that's something for another time and another topic.

3. As to the gurdwaras, if there needs to be improvement, then there needs to be people willing to stand up and say there needs to be improvement.

As for the lower bit, the answers to any questions are found in gurbani. Maybe taking specific arguments and then taking gurbani quotes out and doing nothing more would be the best argument. Can't argue against gurbani now can you? Anyone that's starting fights over the small stuff isn't looking at the big picture. :e:

[japmans]

i agree with most of the above excep ti wanna point out something:

1. I don't know anyone who fights over where mool mantar ends, but I'd be pretty sure in assuming that people that do that are just fighting over nothing. Does it matter so much when mool mantar ends? As a sikh aren't you supposed to recite all of japji sahib not just the mool mantar?

mool mantar isn't just for japji saahib.. when you take amrit from the Beloved Punj Piyaaray, they not only give you gurmantar, but they also make you recite Mool Mantar for a period of time as well.... the reason i'm mentioining this is that i, personally (IN MY VIEW) place Mool mantar at a similar importance as gurmantar, as far as the idea of jaap is concerned.... so for some people, the length and definition of mool mantar does matter, because some people repeat mool mantar AS WELL AS gurmantar.... frankly, i don't know if it TRULY matters where it ends, because, i think what's most important is the devotion and the love/sharda behind it, but again, total different conversation

[Bijla Singh]

First I would request the admins to closely monitor this topic. it is drifting away from the original topic and might turn into jatha bashing which were not my intentions. maybe admins can moderate it by approving the posts.

Now back to the topic.

SSM ji you missed the point. We have cars which we can drive to Gurdwaras or do we want a gurdwara at the corner of every street just like Christian churches? new gurdwaras are being built because of fights and splits not because they want to do more parchaar. if they ever wanted to do parchaar they would've sat down and tried to sort out their differences.

sukhnidhaan ji, please re-read my post and understand what needs to be eliminated and needs to be kept. I have made it clear in my post.

Akaal 108 ji, others have answered your questions but Khalsa was started by Guru Ji which is the only group we need to keep. old jathas you mentioned have contributed less than nothing to Sikhi in last 25 years. Guru Ji started taksal (don't start over this if you disagree) to teach Sikhs Gurbani but can we not improve it? Guru Ji did not setup a specific way. overtime schools need to be improved. Now, Sikhs need worldly education and Sikhi education. kathavaachaks need to be educated in other languages and fields. Panth can setup better schools and can do lot better job than being done today by taksal today. Argue the need of old jathas today and please stick to the topic.

the rising action up to 84 attack we saw Babbar/Taksal Unity....more then that panthic unity.

not true. Babbars were mostly from AKJ in the beginning but now majority are not from AKJ. the unity was not to such extent the movement needed. even if there is unity again, it will be just like 13 colonies. someone once said abt 12 misls "when Sikhs had no one to fight they fought each other". but current jathas are worse than 12 misls. when the enemy attacks one jatha, the other jathas don't come forward to defend it instead they laugh. differences need to be eliminated completely which won't happen until jathas system is abolished first. Also, there is no more Sant Jarnail Singh or Bhai Fauja Singh. So situation today is much different than it was 25 years ago. we lacked unity back then and we still do.

If theres one parchaarak born, theres hundreds maybe thousands who were born to stop him from doing parchaar.

This is very true and it is because we don't have one Rehat Maryada. One jatha doesn't want to see any other rehat maryada being preached to people. jealousy or competition call it whatever you want. This is exactly why I think jathas are not needed. Parchaar can only be done when we have one rehat maryada and one type of Sikh. Guru Ji gave us one maryada and made one type of Sikh. Christians had political power behind them which is why they were able to spread their religion. We need a country too but it won't come until the panth is one.

in terms of shaheeds i would say chrisians have died in the name of religion the same MAYBE more then sikhs soooo far.

not true. do some research on shaheedi of Sikhs and death of christians. there is huge difference but it is not the point of this thread. start a new one if you wish to discuss it please.

I don't know anyone who fights over where mool mantar ends, but I'd be pretty sure in assuming that people that do that are just fighting over nothing. Does it matter so much when mool mantar ends?

scholars have debated over this too. Bhai Charan Singh, professor Sahib Singh, Bhai Veer Singh are just few names.

Does it matter which is 5th kakar?

of course it does. Guru Ji gave us five kakkars not six. both should be kept but only one is kakkar. can you imagine Guru Ji (Panj Pyare) telling you keski kakar and telling me kes. contradicting here, don't you think? turning our back on this isn't the solution.

All the other stuff is pretty neatly outlined by akal takhat's rehat maryada, and is the basis for pretty much all other maryadas.

I can write pages on this one. You cannot just put everything on Akal Takhat and cannot always agree with Akal Takhat. if you do then you will be following dfferent rehat whenever different jatha takes over. There was rehat even before SGPC came out with its own version in early 20s. Without panthic selected Panj Pyare as sevadars of Akal Takhat Sahib, it does not have proper authority all the time. and I don't know which lower bit you are talking about. If you think Gurbani says we need to keep jathas then please provide some info on this. My only purpose of starting this topic is to aware the people that these issues cannot be ignored and cannot be solved without eliminating not only jatha differences but all jathas overall. These are major issues not minor which is why Sikhs have been fighting for 150 years now.

Please stick to the topic. I don't think panth needs any jathas. I am only for Khalsa jatha. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Guest Akaal108]

Sat Sri Akal:

Guru Sahiban also ade the Manji and Masand systems...they became corrupted and lost their purpose.  We cannot hold them in any regard.  I am not trying to equate them to the Sampardayas, but the touchstone of judgement is Gurbani and Gurmat...not whose lineage is trackable back to the Guru Sahiban.

Guru Sahib made many orders...but he was part of only one...the Khalsa Panth.  Always keep that in mind.

87431[/snapback]

I agree veer ji that touchstone of judgement is Gurbani and Gurmat (according to ethasik granths ie- Soraj Parkash, Naveen Parkash, Mahan Kosh).

But i would like to ponder upon Gurbani Vaikhiya-

Everybody know this Gurbani Vaikhiya is must in order to understand our Guru. Traditionaly 100 yrs from now- Majority of people who did accurate Gurbani Vaikhiya are directly/in-directly linked with sampardha...!

If you want modern day example..look no further... Sackhand vasi Gyani Sant Singh Maskin..even though he was not offical Nirmala but he was indirectly linked Nirmala sampardha because he had Nirmala teacher.

Sampardha along with jatha which promotes tolerance and acceptance are pillars of Khalsa panth and represent Guru Khalsa Panth.

[Guest Akaal108]

old jathas you mentioned have contributed less than nothing to Sikhi in last 25 years.

This is absurd..

ok let me get this straight

Old jatha's/samparha havent' done anything in last 25 yrs.. that's quite a bold statement.

What is your defination of contribution?? is it only based on khalistan??

who spread sikhi in south parts of india??

i mean who does parchar of gurbani vaikhiya ??

who wrote steeks ie- Faridkot teeka, satogali steeks of siri guroo granth sahib ji?? (Most accurate historically and spiritually steeks ever exist in the panth) ??

who spreads raag vidiya, shastar vidiya, shastar puja??

who emphasis on respect for dasam granth and sarbloh granth as part of Siri Guro Gobind Singh Ji writing??

who perserved sikh hertiage ie- manuscirpts- larivar saroops, puratan birs??

Lets not make blank statements on contribution of sampardha's. First research..get your facts right..then write a thesis proving your claim.

[Bijla Singh]

What is your defination of contribution?? is it only based on khalistan??

a government attacks on my (and their) Guru Granth Sahib Ji and none of them came forward to fight let alone condemning it openly. no dera and jatha came forward to help the victims. our future generation is mostly orphan. Sikhi is leaving our homeland Punjab. why not preach Sikhi in Punjab? why not face the fake dehdharis like Giani Ditt Singh Ji did?

But aside from all this. they have done their seva in the past but so have other jathas like AKJ and Taksal. their sacrifices cannot be forgotten. if these jathas were one, much more could've been done and Sikhs would've progressed at much greater level. my question to you is that if these old jathas are eliminated, do you think there will be no one left to teach santhiya, gatka, write teekas and preserve our heritage? I am only talking about eliminating jathas not Sikhs. If Panth is united, one teeka can be written that is acceptable to ALL Sikhs. there are many teekas out there but not a single one accepted by all. If Panth is united then schools can be opened where santhiya can be one class addition to Math, Science, History (Sikh and world), PE with gatka etc. These schools will be way better. Advanced level courses can be taught on Gurbani. PhDs can be offered. Then only graduates from these schools will be qualified to do parchaar of Sikhi not just anyone who learns katha by listening to tapes. These parcharaks will not only be educated in Sikhi but also in worldly education and will be able to speak English and other languages. Of course Sikhi is not limited to Punjab only. Keertan schools can be opened. Our parchaar is weak for many reasons.

1) jathas fight with each other and have major disagreements over Gurbani thus we can't preach Sikhi because there are different versions. so no unified parchaar.

2) most parcharaks are not qualified because they only do it for the money. they hardly keep any rehat. many ragis and kathavaachaks I have seen them taking off their puggs like a "topi". we need parcharaks who preach Sikhi for love and their expenses are covered by the government just like missionaries are supported by the UK and USA governments.

3) many parcharaks who spend many years studying Gurbani can hardly speak English and lack worldly education. so you can either go to dera or school not both.

4) next generation is not interested in preaching Gurbani because there are no opportunities in this field. no money, and no way they can fulfill family needs etc. so you can hope of less parchaar in the future. only uneducated people for money will be doing it.

List goes on but almost everyone in Sikhi is aware of these problems. so singh ji, think of the future not history. think if Sikhi can have better future with these jathas? history is in the past. Buddha Dal and Tarna Dal system was established because it was need of the time. Dal Khalsa was the need of the time. 12 misls were need of the time. but there was not a powerful Punjab state until 12 misls unified not as 12 different jathas but as one jatha. had there not been a bandayee khalsa, Panth would've ruled Punjab for much longer time. more jathas, weaker panth. Our education system and way of parchaar will be improved with only one jatha. I am not slandering any jathas. at least this is what I think. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh