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Bhenay your not alone! I have facial hair as well, places where i never had it before such as a on the cheeks and chin. In the starting, I was insecure but then it hit me that i should be PROUD of this kesh. Do you think Mata Saaheb Kaur Jee had no facial hair? Even other Singhneaa... Some Chardekalaa gursikhs were discussing this and said Kamaaee vale singhneeah get kesh on thier face more than others. Rom Rom - vaaheguroovaaheguroo! Be PROUD of it bhenay, with your head high, do not care what classmates, family or anyone has to say. At the end. its only guroosaaaheb who matters =)

None of em are good.. Both side killed or are still killing innocent ppl in the name of religion, political, financial and many other motives... Most probably it will be one of them that this world will end in just few seconds. Human are worse than animals. There is no way to tame human... just look at shy 200+ years ago history when british were doing same what americans are doing today. Go back even more and then you see napolean, genghis khan, alexander the great and so on.. Bin Laden group killed thousands of innocents in the name of religion while the west killed in the name of "collateral damage". Killing is just plain killing. It was the bin laden who started it and it was the america who ended. America created a monster in 80's and it was them who ended his life. It was mistake of bin laden to wage war against america while they didn't do anything to them. America made mistake going into iraq. Human = not perfect We are blessed too much to have such priceless treasure (gurbani) which guide us not to become animals. I am not saying all other non-sikhs are animals but what i am trying is that we all are acting like one. We have straight forward guidelines directly prescribed by our 10 gurus to lead a truthful life. Don't argue nor justify any of the drama going around us. Live your life, keep sehaj in our life, be a role model in your home, keep 5 evils in check. Just thought of throwing my 2 cent into this topic..

@ Singhni- Anytime hun @ Balait- excuse me what an insult. i was a young buzz in India when i witnessed my grandpappa Buzbee zoom in with his wings and sting you. if my memory serves me correctly, you was crying for a whole week! :onfire: Google me!

Well its their country and if it is attacked America has a right to revenge Our country of Khalistan has been attacked our gurdwaras attacked our women and men attacked what are you saying we shouldnt avenge these attacks

Singh dont take it personal, i agree with the article. I dont need to contact anyone, it is evident from other articles where the alliance is. Anyway, it was a good read, sant kartar singh jee khalsa also mentions this in the artee katha aswell.

k-z can you prove and confirm it was written by akj? Or are you just making wild guesses? please contact sikhanswers.com to confirm this. Whether it is Taksal, Nanaksar etc literature it doesn't matter as it is Panthic literature. Again please contact sikhanswers to get them to remove pictures, I've just posted it how it is. and also dont act panthic etc as the other articles are all biased towards jatha mentality. ^ Which articles are you referring to If Satguru Nanak Dev Sahib jee destroyed this practice blatantly then why shouldn't it be told straight up. Again it was destroyed by the Singh Sabha & Gurdwara Reform Movements. Akaal Takht is against too Next will we be saying that don't speak out against Singhs wearing Jaaneoos For panthic Ekta If Satguru jee has clear condemned the practice then Gursikhs shouldn't just sit quiet. It is all roots of Bahmins, Our KHALSA IS NIAARA NOT BAHMIN.

A great book when comparing Hinduism and Sikhi My link

Think about those pyaray singhs who did not even dare to look at a female in that way because they are all sisters until anand karaj. Maybe youve heard this before.... A women whom people thought to be very attractive once said to a Singh that she found him attractive. The singh replied, " Which part of me do you find attractive, so I may chop it off?" .........THAT is what you call Guru Day SIngh. You are in this world for a limited time veeray, please do not let false beauty, false bliss of falling in love with someone else take you away for your main purpose here. I will not say stay away so that your thought diminish, because you should not run away from kaljug like this. You have to overcome and fight it. We are constantly in Jug with punj chorr every second of our life.

If any of you guys ever happen to bump into Nidhar Singh ask him about the fitness regimes of traditional Khalsa warriors, as well aa teaching Shastar Vidiya, he also runs a completely seperate fitness class teaching "Sanjam Kiriya" teaching traditional fitness regimes and exercises. I checked it out a couple of times a lot of bethaks (squats), Daand (indian pressups), various stretches, breathing techniques etc...a lot of emphasis on legs. It's tough ...

Singho, if wind is the fan, then why do we do Chaur Sahib di seva? Is not Chaur Sahib di seva a form of Aarti?

i dont think guys of sikh background marrying hindus dont be encoraged to convert to hinduism. moreso the girls start to practice sikh religion, more than hindu and allow kids to be raised as sikhs. also the girls family have respect and participate in sikh activities i.e. respect sggs ji vist gurdwara etc.

I understand what you are trying to say here.. I was living in deep south.. btw amazing ppl deep in south but no sikh in sight for miles and miles away.. I was only teenager sikh going thru transaction from patka to turban and i really felt the need to be around sikhs but that was not the case.. It was only regular sunday of 2 hours service to interact with people of my community. Gurdwara sahib was about 75 miles away from my place.... Having no sikhs around my area was also the reason why i started this discussion forum along with help of two other cyber buddies (Balait_da_sher and Akali) to meet/talk/support fellow sikhs online.. Luckily now imin california and sangat here is amazing..

True that...

Very easy reply, under his regime less innocent people were killed and he hated terrorists. He kept the peace between the shiite and sunni muslims. The Iraqis were better off with Saddam, but he still should have been brought to justice, but knowing the knowledge that you action of removing Saddam will directly murder countless innocent civilians and take US lives would you do it? No, you would not. If the US troops can wake up, why can't we? I know a Singh who served in the marines in Iraq and he came back and got back into Sikhi and kept kesh. He realized what really went on because he was ACTUALLY THERE. We have the power to understand what goes on in the world and have a DUTY as Sikhs to learn about the political spectrum around the world.

Dear Sangat Jee Please see below for details of a first by way of events. “PARENTING: THE SIKHI WAY” Sharing Good Practice Saturday 21st May 2011 1.00pm – 6.00pm Venue: West Midlands For most parents life is a daily struggle to balance work and family commitments, whilst at the same time trying to practice and learn more about Sikhi. With the frantic pace of modern life it is becoming increasingly difficult to find the time to juggle everything. Whether amritdhari or not, most of us will have asked ourselves: “are we bringing up our kids the right way?” “what should we be teaching them about Sikhi?” “where can we take them to learn more about Sikhi?” “how can we make time to do more as a family?” None of us are experts, and none of us have all the answers. This event is an opportunity to share ideas, approaches and experiences with other like minded Sikh parents. We aim to: - reflect upon the values at the core of family life, - compile a ‘mission statement’ for the family, - draw up an ‘action plan’ to integrate Sikhi into the family’s daily routine, - share practical tips on how to make the family more Sikhi focussed If you are interested in attending please go to www.boss-uk.org and submit your application on-line. Places are strictly limited so it will be first come first served. We would strongly encourage both parents to attend in order to get the most out of the day for your family. If you cannot make alternative childminding arrangements, we can look after children over the age of 4 at the venue whilst you participate in the event.

Baba Sri Chand has a part in SIkh history but should not be worshipped as a Guru as many western Goray Sikhs do they even have a statue of him which they mata tekh to idolatry anyone So we should respect all sages and saints but worship as a true Sikh like the goray Sikhs are doing is out of the question LIke they say give them an inch they take a yard

Let us confine ourselves to background of Usama Bin Laden. It is he who started this with bombing of American Embassy in Kenya. He bombed US destroyer Cole. His man bombed World trade centre. Then he crossed all limits and steered hijacked planes into world trade center and bombed Pentagon. What was the alternative with US? Let this beast escape? No that is to reward butchery. If he was so brave he should not have lived like a coward in a protected house after killing scores of people. Nobody asked him to sideline himself from the war that he started. His coward attitude forced him to take shelter in a safe haven. But God is there to punish such beasts.It takes time but there is justice in God's house. Osama has been brought to justice now. This is the end of his barbaric acts.

Singhni :toohappy: all you have to do is type cartoon bee in google image search and you will see various pics of myself and my bee clan family buzzin around! be careful, you might get stung! lol Google me!

Random but Googleme were did u get you bee display picture from? It's so cool that I want it

i agree with Singh559 hate the sin not the sinner we're all vahegurus creation and mere puppets what ever vaheguru wants we are to love his hukam :waheguru:

Dalsingh, you consistently paint things black and white that are not so. If the united states did not aggressively pursue oil, another stronger country would. That country would then increase and strength and economic output and eventually consume and destroy us. India does the same thing, as does China, UK, Germany, France, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and literally every other country that matters at all. If there is every a khalistan, it to would have to do this in order to survive, or it would be crushed. The english country that you live in does the same thing, and you reap the benefits. Their are countries who do not fight over these things, and if your conscience pains you then by all means go to one. Since the beginning of civilization we have been fighting over natural resources, and we will never stop until mankind stops being human. I unanimously condemn any immoral acts by US troops in foreign countries, and they should be punished(even killed) for their actions, but I will not condemn my country for acting in its own best interest. When US gas prices rise people end up on the streets, lose their homes, lose their jobs, and many many many end up dead because of it. Its no different than fighting over food or water. Your empty rhetoric and constant personal insults literally mean nothing to me, I will answer to God and not you for my beliefs. Unlike you, I am capable having a disagreement with someone without resulting to personal attacks or gross (usually racial) generalizations. Your inability to do this makes our discussions pointless and futile, so I reiterate my desire to avoid a discussion.

Take a good look brothers. See for yourself what lurks in the hearts and minds of such people. Giving someone like this Amrit is like giving it to a snake.

what i like about the sikh community: From my own personal experiences i find Sikh people are generally very kind, polite and helpful. Baptized Sikh's in particular, to me, look very neat in apperance. i like that. what i dislike about the Sikh community: There isn't enough of you guys around!! :allears: Google me!

But it was not a loss of a ton of money. Because they were able to go to war with Afghanistan and Iraq because of it and War = profit. Oil and lithium. You can find out lots of information of how much money they have been making on that. But that was not the real reason why they are there. Its too difficult for me to be able to explain properly on a forum like this about the greater "conspiracy". Everything is interconnected, from our education systems, political systems, to sports, the events that take place in this world, it is all interconnected. This "conspiracy" is so deep; to be able to understand it, all your paradigms would get shattered. I don't even know where to begin, there is so much to discuss. I don't even have the skills to be able to explain what little i know of this. I will send you a pm. But I think it is more of an individual journey, like only God can truly lead us to the truth, only through God's grace can we understand. Because only God is infallible where as people make mistakes and do not know everything. So its up to everyone as an individual to find out for themselves. And seek God's support, as that is the only way.

Like: Shaarda to do sewa (example: kar sewa of Sri Darbar Sahib sarovar in 2004 - completed days before its deadline). Dislike: Lack of Sikh history knowledge. There is no program which provides opportunity for youth to learn our precious young religious, cultural and political history. Youth in the west are stuck in 1980's period and do not make effort nor they like to go beyond 80's. Majority do not read books nor try to learn on their own because of laziness. One good example: No school in India got any concrete school subject nor any syllabus which got any of our history, despite the fact that 80% of our population lives in Punjab.

I think that it is a myth that some races are more martial than others. I believe that all humans have two arms and legs and that anyone can learn how to fight. I feel that one problem that some Sikhs suffer from is that they think that all they need to be good fighters is anakh, warrior spirit, or aggression. Sometimes this is reflected in their language, when they specify that they want to 'die for the panth' or sacrifice themselves or become shaheed. Clearly this kind of mentality exhibits a great deal of bravery and commitment to a cause, however, this is not the mentality with which battles/fights are won. In fact, many races, that do not share the Sikhs' enthusiasm for shaheedi and warrior spirit, do much better in street fights than many Sikhs do. We as a community should not be under any illusion about our vulnerablilties. In fact, we are more likely to survive, if we recognise ourselves as vulnerable and weak and organise our strategies around that concept. I think that we put too much pressure on ourselves and try to act like we should be able to fight sava lakh, despite doing no training. .. then we get all surprised and shocked that not only can we not fight sava lakh, but we cant even fight one-on-one. Why not just accept that we are no different to anyone else and have to put just as much time and effort into self protection as any other race/community. Regarding martial arts training, you need to be specific about your goal. Take my example, I train mixed martial arts, for the purpose of fighting in the cage and fight other guys one-on-one who have been training for the same purpose. In fact, fighting in the cage has been the culmination of about 12 years of experience in martial arts. In my case, I train for sporting purposes, and this does not necessarily translate that well to other areas such as street fighting, modern day battlefield etc. So, if you want to train for sport than recognise that you are doing that. If you want to train for the street, then the focus needs to be street martial arts. I recommend Krav Maga or other combative systems such as Urban Combatives by Lee Morrison or FAST defence. These are small curricula that are easy to learn and dont require many many years of training. Lee Morrison often states that if he cant teach you technqiues that you could go out and use effectively on the street in ten minutes, then you need to find another instructor. These kind of small combative systems were taught to soldiers in WW2 when they only had a few days training to learn how to fight hand to hand combat. One such manual of hand to hand combat can be found here: It is called Get Tough by WE Fairbairn and shows the kind of unarmed techniques that soldiers were taught before being sent to war: http://www.tsroadmap.com/early/tough.pdf One thing I would suggest when finding a martial art is that there needs to be an element of pressure testing in the art that you choose to persue. If you dont get to try your techniques out against a resisting opponent trying their best to stop you, then how will you make your moves work in a street fight? In that respect, thats why many sport martial artists such as boxers and wrestlers do better in street fighter because they are used to employing their techniques under pressure and against a resisting opponent. As an anecdote, I have a friend who learns shastar vidya from Niddar Singh who got into a street fight on a bus with several white youths. Whilst he did ok, he didnt do brilliantly and didnt use any of the techniques that he had learnt in the classes. Why? Because he never had the opportunity to pressure test his skills under the influence of adrenaline and emotional anger that you feel in a street fight when you are in a proper fight. That is why FAST training where you get to employ your techniques under pressure against a fully padded opponent are so important: If you train in sports combat, the advantage you have is that you will be used to pressure, adrenaline, fear and competition, ie fighting someone who is also trying to beat you. If you train street combatives or other martial arts then you need scenario training and full contact drill to simulate what a real fight feels like. Alot of people knock gatka and say that it has lost his martial sting. However, I bet if you put on protective equipment and used foam covered gatka sticks and went full contact, you would quickly learn what works and what doesnt and, as a direct consequence become alot more 'martial'.

"Clothes are meaningless"...what nonsense. :D

I say we go one step further and say if it's not a gursikh wedding, then they they aren't allowed anand karaj (h)

Rebut it with proof. Making noise without back up material is sheer stupidity. May be left leaning atheist dictators are your favorites but i detest them. Read below http://www.globalsec...iraq/saddam.htm Saddam Hussein President of Iraq since 1979 (Vice President from 1968-79), Saddam Hussein [Husayn] was a dictator who stopped at nothing to preserve personal power and regime survival. After the 1968 Ba'athist Coup, he began his career as Chief of Iraq's security services, and he executed opponents and suspected potential rivals, including scores of high-level government officials and thousands of political prisoners. Since the 1970s, he escalated and made routine the systematic torture and execution of political prisoners. Saddam Hussein ordered the use of chemical weapons against Iranian forces in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war, and against Iraq's Kurdish population in 1988. The 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war left 150,000 to 340,000 Iraqis and 450,000 to 730,000 Iranians dead. Saddam Hussein ordered the invasion and destruction of Kuwait in 1990-91 with 1,000 Kuwaitis killed. Directed the 1991 bloody suppression of Kurdish and Shi'a insurgencies in northern and southern Iraq with at least 30,000 to 60,000 killed. he later ordered the destruction of southern marshes to extinguish the Shi'a insurgency. Saddam was born in 1937, and reared in a mud hut near Tikrit, north of Baghdad. From the age of ten, Saddam was reared by an uncle, who encouraged him to dream of becoming a nationalist Arab hero, like Saladin. The chief influences during Hussein's childhood and teenage years were his mother and his uncle Khairullah Tulfah. Tulfah, an Iraqi army officer who introduced Hussein to the evils of colonialism in Iraq, was imprisoned by the British for his activism against the English-backed monarchy of King Feisal I. The Baath (renaissance) Party, which Muslim Salah Bitar and Christian Michel Aflaq originally established, became a vehicle for Hussein. He became an enforcer for the party, and like Joseph Stalin, who fascinated Hussein, he left the intellectuals behind and climbed the ladder of Iraq politics, using a combination of intimidation, fear, nepotism, and outright murder. In 1958, Feisal's monarchy came to a bloody end, and General Adel Karim Kasim took power. A year later, Hussein participated in a failed attempt on Kasim's life. Hussein was exiled to Egypt, where he became enamored of President Gamal abd-al-Nasser, who espoused Arab nationalism. Hussein was also instrumental in organizing Baath cells at the University of Cairo. In 1963, General Abdel-Rahman Arif overthrew Kasim, and the Baaths were in power. By 1968 close family and tribal ties bound the Baath's ruling clique. Most notable in this regard was the emergence of Tikritis -- Sunni Arabs from the northwest town of Tikrit -- related to Ahmad Hasan al Bakr. Three of the five members of the Baath's Revolutionary Command Council (RCC) were Tikritis; two, Bakr and Hammad Shihab, were related to each other. The cabinet posts of president, prime minister, and defense minister went to Tikritis. Saddam Hussein [Husayn], a key leader behind the scenes, also was a Tikriti and a relative of Bakr. Less than two months after the formation of the Bakr government in 1968, a coalition of pro-Nasser elements, Arif supporters, and conservatives from the military attempted another coup. This event provided the rationale for numerous purges directed by Bakr and Saddam Husayn. Saddam Hussein was a consummate party politician whose formative experiences were in organizing clandestine opposition activity. He was adept at outmaneuvering -- and at times ruthlessly eliminating -- political opponents. Although Bakr was the older and more prestigious of the two, by 1969 Saddam Hussein clearly had become the moving force behind the party. He personally directed Baathist attempts to settle the Kurdish question and he organized the party's institutional structure. Hussein was put into control of the internal security apparatus, and within a decade, he had created a police state within Iraq that was so oppressive that it has often received criticism from moderate Arab states. Between 1968 and 1973, through a series of sham trials, executions, assassinations, and intimidations, the party ruthlessly eliminated any group or person suspected of challenging Baath rule. Despite Baath attempts to institutionalize its rule, real power remained in the hands of a narrowly based elite, united by close family and tribal ties. By 1977 the most powerful men in the Baath thus were all somehow related to the triumvirate of Saddam Hussein, Bakr, and General Adnan Khayr Allah Talfah, Saddam Hussein's brother-in-law who became minister of defense in 1978. All were members of the party, the RCC, and the cabinet, and all were members of the Talfah family of Tikrit, headed by Khayr Allah Talfah. Khayr Allah Talfah was Saddam Hussein's uncle and guardian, Adnan Khayr Allah's father, and Bakr's cousin. Saddam Hussein was married to Adnan Khayr Allah's sister and Adnan Khayr Allah was married to Bakr's daughter. Increasingly, the most sensitive military posts were going to the Tikritis. Beginning in the mid-1970s, Bakr was beset by illness and by a series of family tragedies. He increasingly turned over power to Saddam Husayn. By 1977 the party bureaus, the intelligence mechanisms, and even ministers who, according to the Provisional Constitution, should have reported to Bakr, reported to Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein, meanwhile, was less inclined to share power, and he viewed the cabinet and the RCC as rubber stamps. On July 16, 1979, President Bakr resigned, and Saddam Hussein officially replaced him as president of the republic, secretary general of the Baath Party Regional Command, chairman of the RCC, and commander in chief of the armed forces. On July 17, 1979, he was promoted to the rank of Field Marshal. Saddam has been married to the same woman, former schoolteacher Sajida, since 1958. She has been described as a first cousin, not unusual for Mideast marriages of that era. They have five children, three daughters and two sons. Saddam Hussein was captured by forces from the 4th Infantry Division, coalition forces and special operations forces at approximately 8 p.m. local time on December 13, 2003, in a remote farm house near Tikrit, Iraq.

Panthic ekta at its best written. . . Article written by akj to indirectly cuss nihang singhs by using taksal literature. Even though i agree with the views, next time change the picture used, and also dont act panthic etc as the other articles are all biased towards jatha mentality.

What she is tieing is not even CLOSE to a dastaar. Its some type of scarf wrap. Also, dastaar should not be any color from the color wheel. Blue, black, white, kesree and basanti are allowed. Any other color just brings in a fashion statement which is making Sikhi look tootie-frootie.

Do you know how many innocent Iraqis have died due to some cooked up WMD claims - by your reasoning shouldn't Bush and Blair themselves be executed for this, as they instigated the conflict? Please try not to respond with brain dead, American style 'patriotic' jingoism btw. As I said, it's more complicated than the narrative pushed out for the feeble minded to consume.

Good point. According to bani, having bani bought into your life is a blessing from Waheguru itself. If you are blessed like this and enjoy it, then it should make you feel a tad sorry for the apnay that live their lives without experiencing it (not in a horrible supercillious way mind you!). They say you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink - so in the end, even if we were to make loads of effort (as a community) to bring people closer to bani, it is no guarantee they will drink it.

Like the Sikhs the Americans always get revenge no matter how long it takes. Osama was an evil jealous man why attack American citizens for no reason other than he despised them does that remind you of another country. Pakistan India have done the exact thing they despise freedom and people like Bin Laden are better off the earth than on as suspected Pakistan was in on it and will be taken over by America. I think now it is time to take back or at least request back and make it be known we want our half of pakistan back and our part of India being Himalayan Pardesh Punjab and half of Harayana that belongs to the Sikhs by blood and ancestry. Congratulations America on taking out tyrants who think they can go around killing innocents (India are you listening your turn next)

Fair point. I'm not deciding though, I'm just making an observation. It's pretty shocking to see remorseless justification of unethical imperialism like that. If this dharam (Sikhi) is based on ethical conduct how do you square the idea that it is okay to invade foreign countries to grab their resources like that Wales thinks? It's a sick mentality that causes a lot of needless death and destruction. I just can't see how trying to following a highly ethical dharmic way of life and stuff like that can be done simultaneously. Seems to be going in two contradictory directions.

ithe rakh!! ena ghaint reply?? oye brava, tu ik account khol lai, sikhsangat da, fir jithe jithe vi lodd hove chand kran di, tenu hi agge krange yar.

Arghhhh that annoys the hell outta me as well...your post is spot on.

Reincarnation was a mainstream belief in Christianity all the way up to 6th century before it was declared a heresy by Roman Emperor Justinian via fifth Council of Constantinople. All early Church fathers (Origen, Jerome, etc) believed in reincarnation. The reasons for its exclusion from faith were purely political. History records that the early Christian church believed in Reincarnation and of the souls journey back to oneness with God. This all changed by Imperial decree some 500 years after the death of Christ. Emperor Justinian in 545 A.D. was able to apply the full power of Rome and his authority to stop the belief in reincarnation. He forced the ruling cardinals to draft a papal decree stating that anyone who believes that souls come from God and return to God will be punished by death. The actual decree stated: “If anyone asserts the fabulous pre-existence of souls, and shall assert the monstrous restoration which follows from it: let him be anathema. (The Anathemas against Origen), attached to the decrees of the Fifth Ecumenical Council, A.D. 545, in Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, 2d ser., 14: 318).” This passage is aimed straight at the teachings handed down from Yeshua (Jesus) the Christ to his disciples that mankind came from God and was destined to become one with God as he was one with God. When the Jews tried to stone him for calling himself the son of God, Jesus responded by reminding them that they were all gods. Later, just before Christ was crucified, he revealed in a prayer that he wanted his disciple to become one with God. Jesus Prays for All Believers John 17:20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. A prominent theologian named Origen wrote around 250 AD about the pre-existence of the soul. He taught that the soul’s very source was God and that the soul was travelling back to oneness with God via the lessons learned in multiple lives. He taught that Christ came to show us what we can become. For centuries this was the mainstream view of Christianity but 400 years or so later it became a huge issue and the belief was made illegal because Emperor Constantine believed it was dangerous to the Empire to believe in reincarnation.

You're getting confused. No one was symphathising with him. Recognising and acknowledging that the killing of innocents and unethical behaviour also emanates from the other side of this conflict is not symphathising. Just stating facts that get overlooked too easily. Besides, I'm beginning to realise that he wasn't really actively involved in the chain of command of his movement any more, so his death is probably more of a symbolic victory rather than a serious dent to the organisational chain of command? I've no got no sympathy or liking for Bin Laden or his cause. But then I also have no liking of the pseudo-imperialist western attempts at a global domination along economical, political and cultural planks. This type of crap (in my opinion) plays a big part in bolstering movements like the one Bin Laden personified.

Perhaps your definition of 'sant' needs to be rectified. BweI ry sMq jnw kI ryxu ] bhaaee rae sa(n)th janaa kee raen || O Siblings of Destiny, become the dust of the feet of the humble Saints. sMq sBw guru pweIAY mukiq pdwrQu Dyxu ]1] rhwau ] sa(n)th sabhaa gur paaeeai mukath padhaarathh dhhaen ||1|| rehaao || In the Society of the Saints, the Guru is found. He is the Treasure of Liberation, the Source of all good fortune. ||1||Pause||

*sings* dil lai gai kuri gujraat deeeee :tongue2: sorry jio, no offense intended :smile2:

All things said and done, talking between Sikh brothers, I think it is really dangerous and foolish for us to accept any of the simplistic narratives that is used to frame this conflict by those involved in it. Truth is, on a closer inspection this black and white framing of clear 'good guys' and 'bad guys' starts to fuzz. In reality that is just done for public consumption anyway. Painting all of this in simple strokes is dangerous for us (as Sikhs) in a number of ways. Accepting such a 'dumbed down' perspective of the situation doesn't help us develop a deeper understanding of the wider political and cultural context of what we are witnessing. If we are going to talk of the Bin Ladens, Saddams or even Qaddafis of the world we shouldn't be ignorant of their previous relationships with the very nations that have now turned against them. When we do this, we see the true nature of the people who are trying to portray themselves as the moral voice. We learn that in reality, they have no objection to supporting and befriending tyrants as long as it serves their (usually economic) interests. 'But why are such things important?' you may ask. Because we as a people need to grow up too. Hitherto Sikhs have been mainly very simple folk, from rural backgrounds. If we are ever going to achieve statehood and self rule, our political naivety and simplicity have to end. We have to grow up and see things more carefully and objectively. Developing these skills and understandings will be what ensures our own survival in future. Otherwise we will continue to be a politically insignificant people who are stuck in the middle of other nation's battles, choosing sides based on who has the best propaganda (as opposed to carefully trying to establish the truth independently). We can't afford to be this dumb. We have to learn to look after our own interests, because it appears as if everyone bar us are doing just this. Often very ruthlessly too. ਜਾਗਦੀ ਜ਼ਮੀਰ ਰੱਖੋ ਭਰਾਵੋ ਨੀ ਤਾਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਹਮੇਸ਼ਾਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਚਮਚੇ ਜਾਂ ਗੁਲਾਮ ਰਹਿਣਾ

PutTar _Y_Sant, looks like your a part of the Guru_nidhaks the billi jatha whoever they are, there are misquoting bani left right and centre, and another thing puttar ji, you seem to be in a lot of agyaan. Learn somthing first. All you educated moorakhs are make a mockery out of Sikhi, samaj hainee te budiya budiya gala kardeh ya. The problem is far more than just outcasting Sant's! What is that make's a Sant Pakhandi? Lets think about this before jumping to answer this! If a Sant is Pakhandi to me he might be a God send to someone else, and you get a conflict, I can name many Sant who I know If I was to send a particular Gursikh who is very gunni, infornt of them, they would almost have to bow down in resepect to him(no going to metion his name he is gupt remains in peace and is very chardi kala), Yet this Gursokh would still show them respect? How strange I asked him this when we met a Sant in Delhi, I knew the history of this one Sant, but Bhai sahib still showed him satkar, I asked later that evening why did you show him so satkar and pyaar, Bhai said 'Why not?, he is sabat soorat, and a Gursikh, if he choose's to misuse the kirpa Guru Sahib have done then, I can't still judge him, Guru Sahib will take care, of him, another thing, he was surrounded by his followers, regardless of his ill doing he is doing sikhi da parchaar and If I was to come down on him like a ton of bricks, then some of those who have just come into sikhi would have become bemukh for ever. The problem Bhai sahib said is not that he is a Sant, there can be sant in the sangat that remain in chardi kala and never show what they have, but the problem is that we and no centralisation. We are making a mockrey out of the Takhat's and our Jathedars, Truck driver's in Canada read a few books and start doing parchar, you have people like the Darshans and Janaks running around spreading there bakwaas, and there is no one to stop them, cause you all are focased on why so many people follow these Sant way of worshiping Guru Sahib, then when his following grows then we try to put him down in more than one way. Sorry but this is not the way....... Bhai said the following when I asked what would be a resolution, he first replied that Aj kal deh Pardaan would have you killed for even speaking of such a resolution but I will try to remember what he said. Bhai Sahib Said, For the west they would first need to appoint ONE ambassordor of Sikhi per country one for the UK / CANADA / USA and so on, Each would have the resposibility of All the Gurdwara's in there country, NO COMMITEE or pardhaans, Just sevadars. There should be one call centre for sikh's, this would be a help line and also a booking centre for your karaj's Jobs would be created in the panth for the panth, we would need mini bus driver's to collect children from school to take to the Gurdwara and educate them in Gurmat studies, Why should sikh sangat need to go else where, fitness martial arts should all be a part of a Gurdwara. No one in these coutries has the capability to Run Gurdwara because no one has Management skill, look at big institution they have acedemics not Truck driver or bus drivers or dairy farm owner etc, these people have made there welth and now want recognistion thats whey fight in Gurdwara for the power. Take it away. There was a lot more they said. He also said there needs to be One Global Bank account that only the five Jathdars have access to and no Jathedar can leave his post till death, if he has to leave a new one can only be appointed by the 4 remaining Jathedar, selection not elections. Each Jathedar need to have a borad of Acedemics research and other high profile tasks can take place, with power you can make political demands, have sikh jurisdiction administrered by the police. So much can be done and needs to be done, this will control the beadbi that is becoming more and more these days, no is afraid anymore because our roots are powerless. So much more they have said wish I caould tell you the lot.

Found this good article clearing up many misconceptions. sikhanswers.com http://www.sikhanswe...-view-on-aarti/ From Sanskrit Aarti, meaning the light or the vessel containing it which is waved before an idol, generally in the clockwise direction, accompanied by the chanting of mantras. This is also the name given the ceremony, which for the Hindus is a mode of ritual worship to propitiate the deity. In the Sikh system, which totally rejects image-worship, there is no permission for this form of worship. Guru Nanak Dev Ji at Jagannath Puri Mandir.According to the Janam Sakhis, Guru Nanak Dev Ji accompanied by Bhai Mardana Ji, stopped near the temple of Jagannath, which is dedicated to Hindu god Vishnu. Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Bhai Mardana Ji stopped near the shrine upon which sat centuries of history mute and immobilized. The notes from Bhai Mardana's Rabaab (rebeck) touched the devotees' hearts with fresh fervor. Several of them came to hear the Guru's word. The temple priests felt angry and held the Guru Ji guilty for not making adoration to the deity within the sacred enclosure. The local chief whose name has been described, as Krishan Lal one day visited the Guru and invited him to join the aarti, or the evening service of lights, in the temple. The Guru readily offered to go with him. As dusk fell, the priests lighted the lamps and sumptuous ritual for which the devotees had been waiting began. Twinkling lights fed by ghee were placed on a jewel studded salver, amid flowers and incense, and worshipfully swung from side to side by the priest in front of the enshrined image to the accompaniment of the chanting of hymns, blowing of conches and the ringing of bells. The priests had a complaint as they concluded. The Guru had remained seated in his place and not participated in the ceremony. The Guru burst into a divine song: ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਆਰਤੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ਗਗਨ ਮੈ ਥਾਲੁ ਰਵਿ ਚੰਦੁ ਦੀਪਕ ਬਨੇ ਤਾਰਿਕਾ ਮੰਡਲ ਜਨਕ ਮੋਤੀ ॥ ਧੂਪੁ ਮਲਆਨਲੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਚਵਰੋ ਕਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਬਨਰਾਇ ਫੂਲੰਤ ਜੋਤੀ ॥੧॥ ਕੈਸੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋਇ ਭਵ ਖੰਡਨਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਰਤੀ ॥ ਅਨਹਤਾ ਸਬਦ ਵਾਜੰਤ ਭੇਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ The sky is the salver And the sun and the moon the lamps. The luminous stars on the heavens are the pearls. Scented air from the sandal-clad hills is the incense, The winds make the fan for Thee, And the vast forests wreath of flowers. The unstruck music of creation is the trumpet. Thus goes on the Arati (adoration) for Thee, O' Thou dispeller of doubt and fear! Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught the listeners, how Nature's tribute to the Creator was superior to any ritualistic oblation offered before images. Aarti in Sikhi Every evening in all Gurudwaras, after the recitation of Rehraas Sahib, the Keertan (singing) of Aarti through Gurbani shabads is performed by Raagis (musicians). This is a tremendously soothing experience, capable of taking us directly into the spiritual realms of devotion through music. Bhai Gurdaas Ji writes: ਸੋਦਰੁ ਆਰਤੀ ਗਾਵੀਐ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲੇ ਜਾਪੁ ਉਚਾਰਾ|| "Sodar (Rehraas) and Aarti were sung (in the evening) and in Amrit-veal (the ambrosial hours) Japji (Sahib) was recited." Once actor Balraj Sahni asked the late Nobel Laureate Rabindra Nath Tagore, "You have written the national anthem for India. Can you write an international anthem for the whole world?" "It has already been written, not only international but for the entire universe, in the 16th century by Nanak," replied Tagore. He referred to the Sikh aarti (ceremony of light). Tagore was so enamoured of this universal aarti that he personally translated it into Bengali. Sanaatan (Hindu) practices infiltrating Sikhi In the mid-18th century when the Khalsa had to live in the jungles because they had a price on their head, Nirmala and Udaasi Mahants (caretakers) took care of the Gurdwaras. During this period the Nirmala and Udaasis came under the influence of Hinduism and introduced Hindu practices to Sikh institutions. Over time the Mahants became more powerful and although the Sikh Gurdwaras were freed from the clutches of the corrupt Mahands in the turn of the 20th century through the Singh Sabha and Gurdwara Reform Movements. Although the Gurdwaras were freed and Sikh Maryada (Code of Conduct) was re-introduced to Sikh institutions, some Sikh institutions in India that were outside of the Panjab or in the hands of certain Nihangs or Sants continued practising some Hindu rituals. One of the rituals is "performing" Aarti. Singing the Keertan of Aarti is a Sikh practise, however performing Aarti by waving a platter with oil lamps and flowers whilst ringing bells is a Hindu practise. *Admin Note: video removed* [/center] Aarti and Sikh Maryada The Panthic Sikh Rehit Maryada, the official Sikh Code of Conduct, states: ਸ) ਉਪਰ ਦੱਸੇ ਸਾਮਾਨ ਤੋਂ ਇਲਾਵਾ ਧੂਪ ਜਾਂ ਦੀਵੇ ਮਚਾ ਕੇ ਆਰਤੀ ਕਰਨੀ, ਭੋਗ ਲਾਉਣਾ, ਜੋਤਾਂ ਜਗਾਉਣੀਆਂ, ਟੱਲ ਖੜਕਾਉਣੇ ਆਦਿ ਕਰਮ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ[ ਹਾਂ, ਸਥਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਸੁਗੰਧਿਤ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਫੁੱਲ, ਧੂਪ ਆਦਿ ਸੁਗੰਧੀਆਂ ਵਰਤਣੀਆਂ ਵਿਵਰਜਿਤ ਨਹੀਂ[ ਕਮਰੇ ਅੰਦਰ ਰੌਸ਼ਨੀ ਲਈ ਤੇਲ,ਘੀ ਜਾਂ ਮੋਮਬੱਤੀ, ਬਿਜਲੀ, ਲੈਂਪ ਆਦਿ ਜਗਾ ਲੈਣੇ ਚਾਹੀਦੇ ਹਨ[ d. Anything except the afore-mentioned reverential ceremonies, for instance, such practices as the Aarti (waving of a platter with burning lamps and incense set in it in vertical circular motion) with burning incense and lamps, offerings of eatables to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, burning of lights, beating of gongs, etc., is contrary to Gurmat (the Guru's way). However, for the perfuming of the place, the use of flowers, incense and scent is not barred. For light inside the room, oil or butter-oil lamps, candles, electric lamps, kerosene oil lamps, etc., may he lighted. In the same spirit, Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale, a Gurbani scholar and saint, clearly explains what Aarti means in the Sikh religion in 'Gurbaani Paath Darpan'. In chapter of Akhand Paath maryada, page 168, Sant Ji writes: ਆਰਤੀ ੳਚਾਰਨੀ, ਦੀਵੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਾਲਣੇ,ਕੇਵਲ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਪੜਨੇ ਅਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕਰਨਾ, ਫਿਰ ਕੜਾਹ ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਾਦ ਵੰਡਣਾ ਅਤੇ ਖੁੱਲਾ ਲੰਗਰ ਕਰਨਾ। "Do Aarti, don't light lamps, only read Shabads of Aarti and Do Kirtan, then distribute Karah Parshad and have open Langar." On page 135, Sant Ji writes: ਹਰ ਪਾਠ ਦੇ ਭੋਗ ਪੈਣ ਤੇ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਤੇ ਆਰਤੀ ੳਚਾਰੇ( ਬਿਨਾਂ ਮ੍ਰਿਤਕ ਪਹਿਲੀ ਵਾਰ ਦਾ) (ਨੋਟ- ਆਰਤੀ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹੀ ੳਚਾਰਨੇ, ਦੀਵੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਬਾਲਣੇ) "At bhog of every Paath, do Kirtan and sing Aarti (except first path of an individual's death" (Note- Only Sing Shabads of Aarti, don't light lamps) Under title of Aarti, Santji wrote complete Maryada of Aarti and in the end he writes- ਆਰਤੀ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਬੈਠ ਕੇ ਪੜਨੇ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਕਰਨਾ ਹੀ ਯੋਗ ਹੈ।ਥਾਲ ਵਿਚ ਦੀਵੇ ਬਾਲ ਕੇ ਆਰਤੀ ਦਾ ਖੰਡਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਾਂ ਨੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ। "It is best to sit and sing Shabads of Aarti. Doing Aarti with lighted lamps in plates has been rejected by Satguru Ji." So going by Gurmat and Gurbani, only the sitting and singing of Aarti in Keertan form without lighting lamps is permissible, as lighting of lamps like the Hindus did at Mandir in Jagannath is contrary to teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.