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Guys let's not get into the India vs Pakistan debate. At the end of the day the creation of Pakistan was a disaster for Sikhs. We lost our best lands as well as our historic Gurdwaras. India has killed lakhs of Sikhs as well as infiltrated anti-Sikh forces into our institutions and political parties. But let's not turn this into a Sikh Vs Muslim thread. That can be left for another thread should the opening poster see fit to create one. [MOD CUT] Pakistan -Sikh relations start around the late 1930s when the Muslims started to demand Pakistan. So let's take it from there. The whole Pakistan project was presented to the Muslim masses as the creation of a state when the Muslims would be ruling the roost. The Muslims although a bare majority were the worst off economically, educationally, socially and politically in Punjab. The Sikhs held the majority of land in the central districts, they also had along with the Hindus the best private schools. The Hindus being more urban based controlled the economy having the most commercial establishments followed by Sikhs and then followed far behind by Muslims. Pakistan to the common Muslims meant that the then state of affairs would be flipped. Muslims would be the ruling class and the Sikhs and Hindus would then become the downtrodden class. The lands of the Sikhs and the factories and shops of the Hindus would come into Muslim hands. The Muslims in Punjab were the first to use violence to acheive their political objective of Pakistan during March 1947. The Muslim league party which was the largest party in the Punjab assembly was not asked to try and from a government and whether it could have got enough support from any of the other parties in the assembly is academic. The point is that a MAJORITY of the Punjab voters had not voted in favour of Pakistan. Being frustrated in their aims the Muslim League used its paramilitary force to kill thousands of Sikhs and Hindus around Rawalpindi. So this was the first event in Pakistan-Sikh relations. The use of violence against Sikhs in order to achieve a political objective. When the Sikhs retaliated against the Muslim violence it was when they ahd lost all their best lands and half of their population were being turned into refugees. The aim of the Sikhs were to clear East Punjab of Muslims and thus create space for the refugee Sikhs from West Punjab. Had Gandhi and Nehru had their way they would have ensured that all Muslims stayed put in East Punjab and refugee Sikhs would have been resettled outside Punjab. This would probably have been preceeded by a political stunt of attempting to send back the refugees to Pakistan from where they had only saved themselves by the skin of the teeth. It might be true what Auzer has stated that more Muslims were killed than Sikhs and Hindus in 1947. It wasn't for want of trying on the part of the Muslims. The recent book by Istiaq Ahmed about the partition violence concedes that the Muslims were the first to use violence to acheive their political objective. The reason he believes that more Muslims were killed than non-Musims was due to the fact that having suffered heavily in March 1947, the Sikhs were able to make preparations for the coming violence. In my view the Muslims having seen that there was no Sikh retaliation in March 1947, the Muslims believed that they had beaten the Sikhs into submission and having achieved that objective the Hindus of Punjab could easily be bullied into acquiesce to Pakistan. Having, in their view beaten the Sikhs, the Muslim League did not believe that they needed to make concessions to the Sikhs and hence the offer of a Sikh state within Pakistan was an afterthought and offered at a time when the Sikhs knew that Pakistan meant to the Muslim masses. Ironically had the Sikhs retaliated heavily against the Muslims in East Punjab in March 1947 rather than as they did in August there might have been likelihood of some sort of Muslim-Sikh agreement which would have possible. 2. After 1947 there was a lot of hostility towards Sikhs in Pakistan, more than the hostility to Hindus. After realising how they had badly they misjudged the Sikhs, the Muslim rulers of Pakistan ensured that the Sikhs were always presented as the enemies of the Pakistanis. The Government published two books, The Sikh Plan and The Sikh Plan in Action trying to blame the Sikhs for all the violence against the Muslims. They conveniently forgot that they had been the ones who had used violence to achieve Pakistan. The Pakistani representative also blamed the Sikhs at a speech at the UN. From what I have heard the Pakistani primary textbooks from the 1950s had a picture of a Sikh as a representation of the word Z for Zalim (tyrant). 3. On the point of the 1965 and 1971 wars. Both sides present 1965 as a victory for their side. Indira Gandhi armed and trained the Mukti Bahini so Pakistan had every right to arm and train Sikhs and Kashmiris in the 1980s. But the big difference is that whereas Indira Gandhi was sincere in creating Bangladesh, the Pakistani have never been sincere in helping the Sikhs create Khalistan. Their aim in to keep the Indian army bogged down in Punjab so that Kashmir can be 'liberated'. Most Kharkoos realised this double game of the Pakistanis. Benazir Bhutto helped Rajeev Gandhi with intelligence about the Khalistani groups in Punjab.

And by the way Mr. Auzer, I would like to see how many Sikhs on an Islamic forum would be allowed to post as freely as you've been doing so on here. Not only that, I'd be really interested to know how many of them would be allowed to have a display picture that glorifies their non-Islamic faith. Thankfully Sikhs believe in the fact that there is only One God, rather than "there is only my God".

"Na kahun abh kee, na kahun tab kee, agar na hote Guru Gobind Singh, to sunnat hoti sab kee." - Baba Bulle Shah I talk about neither yesterday nor tomorrow; I talk about today. Had Gobind Singh not been there, They would all be under Islamic sway. - Baba Bulle Shah

Who the hell you think you are by saying "you" and attributing my views as Indian aggression. I am not talking about the Indian army. My question was about the thrashing blows the SIKHS (MY FOLKS) gave YOUR ARMY, the PAKISTANI army. What do you have to say about that? What do YOU have to say about SIKHS blowing themselves up using anti-tank mines against your Baton tanks you begged from the US? Who are the cowards now? What do YOU have to say about the 1971 which is a disgrace on your face till date. The picture of Niazi signing the surrender document haunts your dreams as we type. And then YOU call Sikhs cowards? YOUR PAKISTANI army didn't let the Bangladeshi MUSLIM women (YOUR own sisters) wear any clothes and raped them for days, and SIKH soldiers went to the extent of providing them their turbans to cover themselves. Is that cowardice? The truth is that you guys are fed anti-non-Muslim and anti-India hatred from childhood. Don't give me all the sweet stories because I grew up in the Middle East as a Hindu (now a Singh). I know every inch and corner of your mentality. My best friends have always been Muslims from India/Pakistan, but those like yourself who try to cause divisions are dangerous people, who we don't fear anyways. If Indians are our enemies, let me tell you that you guys aint our best buddies either. Operation Bluestar took place in India, we will never forget it. Massacre of Sikhs happened in India, we will never forget it. At the same time, it was YOU people who martyred our Gurus and their family in the name of YOUR religion, we will BLOODY HELL NEVER EVER EVER forget that either. Hindus backstabbed us, YOUR folks weren't any angels either. The good-hearted Hindus and Muslims were fine with Sikhs, its those who like to see people fight who create rifts. 1971 haunts your memories and always will. It was SIKHS who defeated you in 1965 and 1971, and you expect us to believe that you have a soft-corner for us? Really? You REALLY think we are that dumb? Is that based on all the Sardar jokes you've borrowed from Indians (the ones you hate with a passion) ? Check this out: http://sikhquotes.org/128.html Your own brave officers admitting shameful defeat at the hands of Sikhs. Go purchase and read his book if you have doubts left. YOUR folks put the price on the heads of SIKHS. YOUR folks martyred our folks brutally in colossal numbers. Abdali killed 45,000 in a single day. Others didn't leave any stone unturned either. Go read the stories of Sikh shaheeds who were all martyred in the name of YOUR religion. Infants were not spared either. And after ALL this, THIS is what SIKHS did... http://www.sikhiwiki.../Guru_ki_maseet and http://daily.bhaskar...681992-NOR.html Don't you dare to call us cowards. It was the benevolence of Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj who did NOT harbor the LEAST bit of hatred for ANY community, which is why He did NOT command SIKHS to avenge the martyrdom of His sons by killing innocent Muslims. YOU guys need to THANK Him daily, because if this wasn't the case, I swear man, I severely swear that warriors like Baba Banda Singh Bahadur and Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa (2 names YOU should FEAR and NEVER forget) wouldn't have spared anytime to overrun the entire Middle East and soak it red.

the creation of pakistan/india was bad for all of us punjabis punjab was torn apart. millions of our punjabi people displaced, killed, losing family friends, land, homes. i have family that was displaced from pakistan. my pakistani friend's village is near my pind in punjab. however, maybe you should see what a number of your people did to sikhs http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/The_Battle_for_Amritsar,_1947 read that. the muslims wanted to take amritsar from us, thinking that if they did sikhs would be destroyed and not be a problem.muslims went rioting first. muslims tried to attack the darbar sahib, outnumbering the sikhs, but the sikhs repelled them under jathedar udham singh nagoke. they attacked sikhs first. they descrated gurdware, gurdwara baoli sahib l ahore was burnt down, the baoli lost, at gurdwara dera sahib sikhs were shot down by the police which were muslims. have you heard of sikhs doing this to muslims? however, pakistan is ok with sikhs now i guess. they've named a district after nankana sahib, building a university under the name of guru nanak dev ji, and slowly sikhs are emerging in pakistan. but the fact that a man made line, made out of fear and hatred seperates many sikhs from their spiritual birth place (nankana sahib) and many other historic sikh places is sad for many of us. the fact that a border cause so much hate between people is sad.

Bro, just the history of Panjab from unbiased sources, like the English, and you will see that the Sikhs were viciously attacked, as part of a planned manouvre, by the Muslim League, in Rawalpindi Division, not just Rawalpindi district, but Rawalpindi Division, and you can see what Lady Mountbatten had to write about it, as she personally witnessed the aftermath by plane. Every Pakistani i have met,have claimed that "you Sikhs killed a lot of Muslims in partition..." and they ludicrously claim, that no SIkh was killed by any Muslim. Brother, the loss of western panjab is a dagger in our hearts, because we do not have the freedom to visit the Holy Land, where our Guru Ji, Guru Nanak was born. This pain is still felt by Sikhs today, and we remember this loss every day. Every Single day. Whatdo you want us to think of Pakistan? There is only one answer from us. I dont know any Sikh that blames Pakistanis for the atrocities on the Gurus per se. I have met pakistanis who claim that Aurangzeb was a pious, spiritual man, who would never harm anyone. We hold the Moghals to account for this, but the support for the moghals by their co-religionists ( Pakistanis) doesnt endear them to us either.

Regarding the quote from SikhQuotes, I doubt that quote as well and don't think it's real either. As for losing, a loss is a loss, no matter what the reasons are. After that it's just perspective, technicalities and how far someone wants to push the other. At one point both sides weigh the pros and the cons. All soldiers are brave, to say one is braver than the other is ridiculous. I actually had a discussion with a few proud Pakistanis and we had a discussion about the Mughals and I was quite vocal about how distaste for the Mughals presenting the Sikh perspective and even a Muslim perspective (Sufi and other saint persecution, how they kidnapped/raped non-Muslims and Dulla Bhatti the Rajput Muslim who used to lead a revolution against Akbar. They generally agreed that Jahangir and Aurangzeb weren't good leaders, or they simply didn't want to offend me, which was fine as well. I wouldn't have minded their opinion though. An interesting thing to note is that Babur was a very vicious conqueror. During his conquests in India he captured thousands of Indians and Guru Nanak Dev Ji was one of them. Babur had heard of a Peer who was among the prisoners and asked him to appear before him, he wanted the blessing of this Peer that people spoke of so his rule may stay till the end of time. Guru Nanak Dev Ji said if you want to rule here to the end of time then you must have a humane rule where no one is hurt and everyone's basic human rights/needs are met. Upon these bachans Babur was convinced this person wasn't your average person, he spoke the truth and reassured that his rule would be blessed by God/Allah/Ram/Waheguru if he did not hurt anyone. Babur released the prisons and even if you look at 3rd person sources you can see that his rule was peaceful all the way up to Jahangir. The translated Persian sources of the Mughal archives show that Jahangir had resented the fact that the previous rulers before him had "softened up to the Hindoos" and he believed he had to uphold the ideals of Islam and begin to punish these Kafirs, especially (as Jahangir referred to) as the Hindu (Sikh) Guroos. It angered him even more that (I don't remember exactly so don't quote me on this, but it was either his son or nephew) had become a follower of the Guru. He also expressed how the Sikh Guru's power and influence was growing and it hints that it bothered him and he had felt threatened by this. To cut a long story short, these were the main reasons he had summoned Guru Arjan Dev Ji and he asked his name to be put inside the Guru Granth Sahib to ensure his rule over India. Guru Angad Dev Ji said, even my name cannot be put into this Granth, then how can yours Aurangzeb ji? Aurangzeb's verdict was to do what he said or for him to embrace the tu-h-thi ta-vee (hot plate) with sand poured on top. Guru Arjan Dev Ji knew that this was going to happen eventually and was more than happy to get on the thaahthee tavee for they were one with Waheguru and their Shabad and teachings were in the Adi Granth. Jahangir may have thought he killed Guru Arjan Dev Ji, but Guru Arjan Dev Ji did not die, the Bani of Guru Sahib Ji is with us today and Guru Sahib knew that. What oral tradition of the Sikhs maintain is that Guru Nanak Dev Ji passed down shastar vidiya (the knowledge of weapons) via Baba Budha Ji all the way to Guru Arjan Dev Ji and Guru Hargobnd Sahib Ji. He knew a day would come where the once vicious, now pacified rule would most likely revert back to oppressing the masses and when this happens, an army exactly like the Khalsa would be needed to protect everyone (including Muslims) from tyranny. Proof to support that Guru Nanak Dev Ji knew shastar vidiya is that Guru Nanak Dev Ji kept shastar on him as well, including a kirpan and other weapons during his travels. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ As for the Sikh Empire, Hari Singh Nalwa was the only General in history to capture and conquer Afghanistan and did so honorable and respecting the men, woman and children there. The justification the Sikhs had for securing the Khyber pass was all the Mughal invasions occurred from that area and to safeguard the kingdom, the Khyber pass must be protected. The Sikh Empire did fall and it was no other than the fault of a few Sikhs and the trust of the Dogras in short, but if we learn from history, we can build the future to be stronger than what occurred during the Sikh Empire. ~~~~~~~~~~~ The British goal was to divide India and Pakistan and sow seeds of hate so in the future no such a power like the Sikh empire would ever be created again. If Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus unified that region would have been an economic powerhouse today. Gore are very interesting people. Desis get very boiled up and say things like "Khard-ja teri (insert individual) di....." and proceed to beating the individual up with their fists or weapon, but a gora may take it, but they will slap you when you don't expect it in such a way that you won't be able to ever get on your feet again. The slap the Britishers did in on Pakistan and India is such that they ensured that no real economic competitor ever arise from that region for the next 100 years. ~~~~~~~~~~ As for whether Pakistani army raped Bangladeshi woman. Yes they did, but accepting this fact doesn't effect my view on Pakistan as India has done worse. If the history of India comes out, it will be branded as one of the worst (and naturally the best) history in the world because through great chikkar (mud) arises the lotus flowers. Genocide of communities, aryan invaders and brutal systems of caste system that dehumanized millions of people. It would be all okay if this were talked about in past tense only, but the Indian army and state continues to condone activities that involve rape and genocide. When Shaheed Subegh Singh was the general during the fight in Bangladesh, he made sure his entire units did not touch a Bangladeshi woman as the Pakistani armies did. He was a legend, he knew Bangladeshi and even tied a thothi and an average Bangladeshi couldn't tell him apart from being a Sikh/Indian or a Bangladeshi. To cut another long story short, due to racism and the slow campaign to corner Sikhs into initiating a genocide of the Sikhs, Shaheed Subegh Singh ji left his position and joined Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale and the Khalsa. After this you know what kind of useless low class generals India employs like Gill, vaidiya and the punjab police comissioner kps gill and many other criminals who part took in rape, slaughter and genocide of innocent individuals from their own country so the bigger wrong would be the Indians.

lol how did this topic turn from sikhs talking about sikhs still being martial to a muslim topic.

I don't think one can blame the modern Pakistanis for the atrocities committed by the Mughals. One should be judged on their own merit not based on what religion or country they belong to. You will find good and bad people in all faiths. Most of the Pakistanis I have met are good people. One of my closest friends is a Muslim. It doesn't make sense to paint an entire people with the same brush. This isn't what our Gurus taught us. I read a Punjabi book about 2 years ago Guru Gobind Singh Jee de Mussalmaan Shardaloo. That book mentioned so many Muslim shardhaloos of Gurus Ji who risked their lives for Guru Jee in the most difficult of times. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, and it's their actions that determine if they are good or bad.

Needs to have a great RPM Ratio... Roti per minute ratio!! Average would be making 3 rotiya per minute

This is a separate discussion and not related to Udasis. If i got it wrong then im ready to admit i got it wrong. However whatever is being posted about udasis is based on the katha of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Maharaj. You are trying to defame me with this Nirmal bit and then want everything else said about the udasis to be discounted. Again just so its clear to you and the katha is there for everyone to read........the udasis information is coming from Sant ji. And obviously you keep side stepping this katha for whatever reason. I wasn't scared to listen to what Hari Singh Randhawa had to say and what Sant ji and neither should you be scared to listen to Sant ji and not only Hari SIngh Randhawa alone. Not my own mat or my dharam. Again bhai Sahib learn to read a bit more carefully. The udasi information is completely based on Sant ji's katha of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. If you want to challenge Sant ji's katha then go right ahead. You already have two members who are taking the same stand as you and they are very scared to challenge Sant ji's katha, but keep posting hearsay. Bhai Sahib as a brother i will tell you again to be less emotional and be more objective. I have not stated in this thread for one second that Sri Chand started udasis. I have proved with Sant ji's katha that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj did not start the udasis. Just like how Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj did not start the Muslim religion by wearing blue clothing when going to Mecca. So you base your evidence on photos and need more to prove what you want to believe. Thats your choice and i won't try to change your views. However this is a discussion forum and we do need valid and reliable evidence that can stand the test of Gurbani and Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars to be accepted with a Saints katha. You can believe i have some witch hunt for Hari Singh Randhawa. If that statisfies you then let's say Fateh and we don't need to discuss on this further. Enjoy your day without this stress. I would need to approach Hari Singh Randhawa if he needed to clear his statement up. But its clear as day and doesn't need to be explained any further. After listening to his teacher; Sant ji we were able to establish it was just a statement based on no merit.

Paaji I take your point about the UK, but the fact remains that Americans are programmed by TV and their media to be ignorant towards anything that is not TEAM USA! America is a world within a world which can be broken down in to 50 countries (states) governed by their own state laws, while adherent to central governance. So there seems to be a mindset propagated that makes them very insular in their opinions of and towards non Americans. With regards to your comment about people in the pind, I would buy in to your theory, if this documentary was filmed using people who have a limited access to books, Internet etc. in hicksville in the deep south of the US, but the fact is, that it's not! It's filmed at a university campus using some of their free thinkers, future leaders and strategists in the worlds most powerful country and largest advocate and exporter of democracy!

At one point the total fertility rate for women was 3.4 whereas the number goes up to 4.5 for Muslim women. That is a HUGE difference. Here is another article comparing Muslim fertility rates to other non muslim nations. Although they are decreasing, they are still a lot more than non muslim nations. http://www.pewforum....-fertility.aspx Here is another Islam Q/A website: "Having a lot of children is something that is encouraged in Islam and the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) urged Muslims to do that. Abu Dawood (2050) narrated that Ma’qil ibn Yazaar (may Allah be pleased with him) said: A man came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: “O Messenger of Allaah, I have found a woman who is from a good family and is beautiful, but she does not bear children; should I marry her?” He told him not to. Then he came to him a second time and said something similar and he told him not to marry her. Then he came to him a third time and said something similar and he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Marry the one who is loving and fertile, for I will be proud of your great numbers.” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel, 1784." http://islamqa.info/en/ref/127170

Cowardice was when your army RAPED the Bangladeshi women. Cowardice was when your people tortured Sikh women, cut up their children and put them around their necks. Cowardice was when your people used to take away Hindu women and take away their honor. Cowardice is when your people are allowed to sexually exploit your OWN women. Cowardice was when death sentence was urged for a young mentally disabled girl "desecrating" the Quran which YOUR PAKISTANI people are PUSHING TOWARDS. http://worldnews.nbc...emy-arrest?lite Wanting to kill a Christian woman for Blasphemy in Shiekhpura Pakistan is Cowardice. http://worldblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2010/11/29/5543912-christian-woman-faces-death-for-blasphemy?__utma=14933801.1114464854.1346552318.1346552318.1346552318.1&__utmb=14933801.2.10.1346552318&__utmc=14933801&__utmx=-&__utmz=14933801.1346552318.1.1.utmcsr=google%7Cutmccn=(organic)%7Cutmcmd=organic%7Cutmctr=pakistan%20blasphemy%20girl%20receives%20threats&__utmv=14933801.%7C8=Earned%20By=msnbc%7Cworld%20news%7Cworldnewsfranchise=1%5E12=Landing%20Content=Original=1%5E13=Landing%20Hostname=worldnews.nbcnews.com=1%5E30=Visit%20Type%20to%20Content=Earned%20to%20Original=1&__utmk=173134243 Cowardice is you telling us that we should be thankful you didn't kill our people in East Punjab. Cowardice is when YOUR PAKISTANI people commit atrocities on women. My Sikh Brothers would never stoop to that level. If attacking women is not Cowardice then I don't know what is. Then you wonder why we criticize Pakistan.

Ok, this has been really annoying me for a while now. It has been going on for quite while and yet as far as i am aware no one has batted an eyelid. Not just non Amritdharis are guilty of this but so are countless of Amritdharis and Gursikhs. So far this year I have received 6 wedding and Akhand Paath cards and in each and every one of them there is a tuk from bani! Two of these cards I have received from Amritdhari families. I think putting bani in these cards is extremely disrespectful! The cards if posted get thrown all over the place and are held by someone who may have just had a bacon sandwich or cigarette a few mins ago. If they are hand delivered then most are left all over the place. And once the wedding/ Akhand Paath passes how many get thrown straight into the bin? We wouldn't treat an ang from Guru Granth Sahib Ji or from the gutka in this manner so why is it acceptable for a card that contains a line of bani. In fact what is the need to contain bani in the card in the first place? Stick what ever else you want on there but LEAVE THE BANI OUT!!!!

WJKK, WJKF We are all aware of the terrible tradgedy that happened last week in the Oak Creek, Wisconsin Gurdwara. However, as terrible as that was, I know that I am not alone when I say that I know some good can come out of it. Yesterday, we saw our first potential positive. The NYPD has long had a turban ban on its members, discouraging many Sikhs from joining the police force. Yesterday though, Sikh advocacy groups met with the Chief Financial Officer of NYC, Comptroller John C. Liu. He wrote a letter to the Mayor of NYC, Mr. Bloomberg, urging him to overturn the current ban. You can read the whole letter here http://unitedsikhs.o...tterToMayor.pdf In light of this, I have created a petition to gather support for this letter. https://www.change.o...eard-and-turban On this board we have talked a lot about making a difference. Now is the time, where we can step up and make that happen. Because in the end, we make the difference. Not some guy they bring onto CNN or BBC. Also, it would really really help, if after signing the petition, you would send an email to the following Sikh advocacy groups, asking them to support the petition and send it out to their email list. Because even if they just get 100 emails saying the same thing, I am sure it would really encourage them to support it. Sikh Coalition - http://sikhcoalition...t-us/contact-us SALDEF - http://org2.democrac...Up.jsp?key=2045 United Sikhs - unitedsikhs-usa@unitedsikhs.org I have even prepared a sample, all you have to do is copy and paste this into the subject field. Hello, In light of Comptroller Liu's recent letter to Mayor Bloomberg urging him to overturn the current beard and turban ban in the NYPD, I urge you to look at this petition supporting the letter, and send it out to your mailing list. It would greatly help in the cause. https://www.change.o...eard-and-turban Sincerely, (Your Name) The NYPD is one of the largest police forces in America, and here we have the oppurturnity to change the face of Sikhs all across North America. Please Brothers and Sisters, step up, and make a difference. It only takes 5 minutes, and it is the least we can do to honor the memory of those killed in Wisconsin

Ek Onkar Rastrapati Ji Kindly accept Sat Sri Akal (salute to the Revered True Timeless) by the two Singh’s (Sikhs) on the way to martyrdom. Theoretically, it is appropriate to clarify that, our Rashtrya (nation) is the Khalsa Panth absorbed into the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We took the first steps towards the destination of Khalistan by touching our foreheads with the dust of this nation. The elimination of Mr. Vaidya, the General of your forces who engaged in destroying the Khalsa Panth and its power, was a holy act on our difficult path of martyrdom. It has once again brought the historical truth to light; the urge of the Khalsa Panth to breathe in freedom, its self respect and honour cannot be finished. We wish to clarify that we are not addressing these words to you as an individual but as the head of a State that is communal and brahmanical. Whosoever occupies, occupied, or will occupy this throne of falsehood, will be to us a symbol of oppression and cruelty. We have not forgotten that when the 'wedding party of sin' (the Indian Armed Forces) were invading our Temple of God, a heathen in the garb of a Sikh (Zail the ex president), was sitting in your place. The Panth will 'settle its accounts' with him, when Sikh history imparts its justice. By invading the Sri Harmandir Sahib (Golden Temple) your army tried to rob a nation of saint-soldiers, living in its divine simplicity, of its joy. It gave us a feeling at one point as if you had succeeded in driving us to the point of utter frustration. But by performing our historic task we have reminded you that our heroes like Bhai Sukha Singh, Bhai Mehtab Singh, Bhai Udham Singh are shadowing your tyrants Wazida, Lakhpat, Ribeiro, O'Dwayer. We accept with great joy the penalty of death pronounced by your court of law alienated from divine blessings and fallen to the brahmanical reflexes, for whatever we undertook was in accordance with the vision of the Khalsa. By touching the sharp edge of death we are moving towards fullness. Without martyrdom the magnificent fair of life cannot come into full swing. The fact is that the brahmanical form of Hinduism thinks of the Akal Takht (the Highest Throne of Sikhs) and its thought-complex related to the movement and play of the Eternal in vulgar pragmatic terms. This sort of limited thinking of brahmanical Hinduism puts the great institution of the Khalsa Panth on a very low pedestal and elaborates it in a very harsh practical sense. From this narrow angle the Akal Takht is reduced to an ordinary building or at most to a place of worship. The Khalsa Panth does not accept this situation. The Khalsa does not worship power, rather, it enters history by empowering itself. The truth from the Akal Takht has taught us that by being armed the Khalsa has to snatch the power of the powerful and by absorption into the Eternal World, the Khalsa has to assimilate the saintliness of the saint. This theory has destroyed the centralised authority of power and saintliness, and justly distributed them all over. But the doctrine related to 'power and saintliness' (Miri-Piri) was very threatening to the brahmanical stream of thought, because the new Sikh doctrine not only awakened the people, it also inspired them to organise themselves for an armed struggle under the leadership of the Akal Takht by shattering falsehood of brahmanical thought. The ’masters of centralism' at once came into action. They began to repeat the well-designed danger to the 'unity and integrity' of the country to retain power and encouraged the rise of 'personal Gurus' (i.e. Radha Swamai , Nakali Nirankari, Darshan Dassi) in the arena of religion. The thought of brahmanical reflexes had in fact started attacking the consciousness of the Sikh Gurus ever since its emergence, but on 15th August 1947 after assuming imperial authority, the brahmanical thought took still nastier forms. In the last few decades, your parliament, court, educational institutions and media have tried to humble the consciousness of the Khalsa through the subtler force of majority supremacy and material monopoly. We are not hesitant to say that conspiracies have been hatched and very subtler arrangements have been made at the psychological level to destroy the great institutions, traditions, originality and unique sovereignty of the Khalsa Panth. The destruction of the Akal Takht by sending in lakhs of soldiers was part of this larger conspiracy. In this situation, it hardly needs saying, how justified it was to eliminate the military General Vaidya who was not only a part of this conspiracy but also responsible for its planning and implementation. By completing this holy and historic task, we have unburdened our conscious and proved that the real force of the Khalsa Panth is and will remain free from the brahmanical reflexes in all ages. By cautioning the Khalsa Panth of the brahmanical strategies we have won the love of Guru Gobind Singh. When nations wake up, even history begins to shiver. During such momentous moments a Banda Singh Bahadur bids farewell to his peace dwelling and destroys a state of oppression like Sirhind, a Che Guevera turns down a ministry of Cuba, loads a gun on his breast and entrenches against the enemies in the forest of Bolivia, a Nelson Mandela rejects the ideology of apartheid and prefers to spend his life in a dark prison cell. ...And we have had the privilege of being in the loving care and companionship of that unique General of the Panth Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Bhindranwale, blessed by the valiant and transcendental visionary Guru Gobind Singh Ji. We are tiny particles of dust of the numberless heroic jewels of the Sikh nation who walked on the sharp edge of the dagger, the Khanda, given to us by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Only the chosen few get the honour of laying down their lives for the nation. We are proud of this honour. In one way it is just to accuse us of an unheroic act in attacking an unarmed man. We wish to remind you that by misusing your vast resources you have tried your utmost to humiliate us as a nation. In every field you have tried to make us helpless. You are empowered with your massive armed force and equipped with the most advanced military arsenal of our times. You have made us inadequate to fight you in the open battlefield. In the present situation there is no other alternative with us except to use the kind of method that we employed on General Vaidya to punish the tyrants for their evil deeds. When you are already waging an undeclared War on our nation, guerrilla attacks are not our pleasure but an historical compulsion. Please do not forget this fact of history that during the 18th century when robbers like Abdali and Nadarshah were driving your daughters to Kabul like enrobed flocks of animals, our brave Sikh brethren from their jungle and desert hideouts fiercely attacked the robbers. Even the frightened enemies had to praise our courage. We are fired with a generous humanism. Our grip extends to the entire life with its breath and vibration. In the last one decade there have been very few actual encounters between our soldiers and your forces. But wherever those have occurred, the evidence in them of our valour and radiant heroism, we are sure, is preserved in your confidential files. A fragment of that fact once in a while slips through your newspapers as well. Our Khalsa, vigour is an aspect of our spiritual heritage. In such moments of fight, spirituality radiates through the flashes of our swords. Oh, President representing Brahmanism! Hear the words of Kazi Noor Mohammad, eye witness during the seventh invasion (1764 A.D.) of Ahmad Shah Abdali: 'It looks as if guns were invented by these Sikhs and not by Likman. Although many possess guns yet none understands them more than the Sikhs. My observation will be confirmed by the 30 thousand brave soldiers who fought against them.' When we attacked General Vaidya apart from his own arms, he had with him a well equipped body guard. Our attack was part of the same battlefield strategy that was once used by our hero martyrs Madan Lal Dhingra, Bhagat Singh, Kartar Singh Sarabha, and even today it is used by revolutionaries the world over and considered right. Through you we wish to transmit this message that we harbour no enmity towards the great people and the land of India. We are not touched even a bit by hatred for the people of India. Not only to embrace of your people, we are restless to embrace the whole of the earth and sky. We intoxicatingly remember the entire cosmos and worship the life that vibrates in it. The Khalsa is inseparably and lovingly related to the people of India: the millions of Dalits, the workers who earn their living through honest labour, the Muslims and other minorities, and all those homeless and destitute who have remained oppressed and exploited by Brahmanism for centuries. They are all our kith and kin. Our Master, rider of the blue horse (Guru Gobind Singh Ji), recognised them much earlier. All those termed by the proud Brahmin the lowly, scavengers, shoemakers, became the beloved sons of our Tenth Father. They rose to the ranks of General, in the army of the Khalsa. Thrones and honours kissed them. Without fantasising, we are declaring in the midst of history that our Gurus loved the metapoetry (Bani) of those divine souls drenched with a passion for the Dalit brotherhood. The Gurus bestowed the highest honours on them and included their Bani along with their own in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The spirit of the Dalits and their pain are aspects of our own anguish. We are touched by the warmth of their existence. But the network of the Brahmanical falsehood is so large that it is not letting the Dalits understand the real nature of our struggle. When the Dalits embrace the Khalsa, worldly honour and higher status will be theirs once again. We are waiting for that auspicious moment. We pray for the well being of all before the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It also instils tremendous self-confidence in us. Inspired, our heroes like Bhai Sukha Singh and Bhai Mehtab Singh kill a tyrant like Massa Ranghar and bring the head as an offering to the community. Our inspiration also stems from the same Guru Granth Sahib Ji. With a fierce determination we have taken a position against your falsehood and trickery. We have taken an oath to fight to our last breath to wage a war for the establishment of a sovereign Khalistan. To us, you are a symbol of evil, and whatever cruelty is being inflicted on us by your followers, we are bearing with great joy. Our Beant Singh and Satwant Singh were also inspired by the light of the same Guru Granth Sahib Ji and they went for a great deed. After them, we too had the privilege of being inspired by a ray of the same divine light and we struck General Vaidya in Pune. Please do not mistake this letter as an appeal. We are not begging mercy from you by expressing any regrets on the killing of General Vaidya. We are not least repentant; in fact with responsibility and commitment we declare it as our significant deed. After completing the historic task we are feeling light like the song of a nightingale. Our faces radiate with the light and freshness of a new dawn. At the moment we are occupying a throne that blesses us with a vision of the immense possibilities of life. We are initiated into the beautiful and unknown secrets of martyrdom. Our Gurus were already with us, we are now feeling the presence of all the martyrs of the world. These spirits read and understand the light and language of our rotating eyes. How lovely the words of great Emerson are where he says that human nobility need its heroes and martyrs. And for this reason, he adds, the trial of torture goes on. The silence of Socrates and the divine frenzy of Mansoor will permeate our martyrdom. We are already in the realm where time and space diminish. We are witnessing history, religion, philosophy, complex knowledge, facts and objects in their purest forms. While pointing out the mysteries of heavens when we are gone beyond the humdrum of the world, we will be still very close to our nation, closer than the large vein of the throat. In no way are our aspirations exhausted. We are the eternal flame of human depths that will ever burn in the hearts of the Khalsa. You are madly proud of your worldly, kingdom, of physical numbers, of a large army well equipped with the latest arsenal, of vast resources, your capacity to force the small countries and nations to submit to your gangsterism. But look at us! We take pride only in the Grace of God. Our treasury are the blessings of the Khalsa that sings the song of the Fearless and the Kindly-Disposed. Let us position you in the midst of history and remind you of the warning of the tenth Guru: 'babin gardishe bewafae zaman ki bar har baguzard makino makan' It means: look at the unfaithful rotation of time, it will engulf everything. But you are not ready at all to understand the unfaithful rotation of time. Ego and worldly motives have seized you. When temporary and short-lived successes throw you off your balance you get drunk with ego. You are deprived of such great blessings as the capacity of seeing the colourful diversity of nature, a transcendental vision, the qualities of higher conduct, justice and wisdom. Narrow pragmatic objectives have seized you. Your conscience is burdened by sins, but you are not even close to remorse. Since you are so far from the great rush of the divine blessing, the Khalsa does not recognise your worldly kingdom. You are not competent even to retain this worldly kingdom. You love these transient touchable to such an extent that they have become your ultimate. Each form of your 'detachedness' has lost its shine. You have indulged only in hurtful deeds. We are compelled to announce that your nation of 'seers' does not agree with the Khalsa nation of Saints. We will not test your authority any more. It is already clouded by spiritual poverty. We have made these comments on you by keeping fully intact our psychic concentration, critical method, imagination and insight. We have enough moral ground to make the comments on you especially after bearing the cruelty of your authority inflicted on our bodies following the storming of Sri Harmandir Sahib. We are also enclosing with this letter a document (as an appendix) that is an essential part of this writing. You will see in the document your bloody face fully reflected through your actions. After wining the so-called freedom in 1947, we became the most deprived ones. Although 95 per cent of the sacrifices made for freedom were by the Khalsa, yet immediately after assuming power you’re Home Minister Mr Patel, through a special circular, labelled the Sikhs as a community of criminals. The whole of India was reorganised linguistically but only the Punjab was discriminated against. For obtaining the Panjabi speaking state, lakhs of Sikhs went to jail and became martyrs. When after 19 years the state was finally granted, it was an inadequate and punctured one. Chandigarh and several Panjabi-speaking areas were kept out of the new state. Violating all the international norms, the Panjab was deprived of its proprietorship of natural resources. Distribution of waters is an evidence of this injustice. You also retained the initiative and powers for Panjab's economic development. The path of development that you adopted was one dimensional and directionless. It resulted in the imbalance of economy. Your design is to keep our industrial development at your will and never let us be self-reliant. You want to see us standing as beggars at your door. There is hardly any Agro Industry in Panjab. Heavy industry is totally non-existent. We want to keep our capital safe for our development, but you are exploiting us if we were your colony. You have not spared any effort to hurt our culture. By damaging our heritage you want to keep us in a miserable psychological state so that we may feel embarrassed over our language, culture and proud history. Your strategy is to destroy us from 'within' and reduce us to your slaves so that you may keep on sucking our blood without any protest. You want us to adopt your rootless culture of razzle dazzle as our way of life. You want to uproot our culture and take away our source of life. You think our history is not worthy of any significance. But now we keep track of your every step. Still a vital blood flows in our veins. We will structure our way of life according to our originality and history. Everyone knows that without getting political power it is not possible for any nation to guard its culture. It is not possible for us to keep our culture and national identity intact without establishing a sovereign Khalistan. We are offering our heads for achieving our goal; Our True Guru has granted a sovereign state to us We have won his blessing by offering our heads. Now we beg to address our Khalsa Panth. The way of the Khalsa is very trying. It is sharper than the edge of a dagger, the Khanda and subtler than a strand of hair. The Khalsa Panth at all cost has to preserve the original and pure form of its great struggle. The struggle is a divine journey inspired by a transcendental consciousness. During these moments of struggle, the Khalsa is to remain continuously absorbed into the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, no matter how many cruelties are inflicted and provocation is given, the Khalsa has to keep its cool and discipline in the horrible and barbaric situations. The Khalsa has to preserve its traditions established by the valiant Sikhs through martyrdom. In comparison with the violence of the enemy, the violence of the Khalsa abounds in divine qualities and spiritual blessings. The Khalsa has to give such a divine form and beauty to its struggle that it may even burden the conscience of the enemy with the realisation of its own sin. Such a moral miracle will be possible only if the concentration on the Guru of the Khalsa and the rhythm of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji remain fully connected and intact. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the main source of our life-stream and spiritual power. It is also the chief spring of our inspiration to advance towards the destination of Khalistan. In concentration on the Guru and the internal rhythm of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji are the main life-stream of the Khalsa, then it is also necessary to say a few words to the Singhs (the fighters)who are intensely in love with the stream. In this terrible crisis of history the concentration on the Guru and the rhythm of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji are the only armed brigades. They are the army of the Timeless Man, and they are the guardians of the pure consciousness of the Khalsa. We too had the honour of having been the humble parts of these forces (the under ground groups). It is true that we are confronting a vast material State that has at its command all the worldly resources, horrifying scientific inventions, a capacity to attack and disable the intellect and praxis, the State can also weaken us through penetration and strategies of its intelligence. It can also develop shocking plans and more than everything else it can assemble huge armies. But so what? The Khalsa can send shivers into the spine of the enemy and shake its state with its spiritual might. It is not the bodies alone that fight. It was only the miracle of the Khalsa's spiritual strength that even with its tiny number the Khalsa subdued the 10 lakh army of the Mughals at the Fort of Chamkaur. During the last decade we have overwhelmed this state of brahmanical prejudices with martyrdom. We have been hailed in all corners. Now the matter is not restricted to possible creation of Khalistan alone. Several oppressed nations of India have come out in the open to fight for their freedom. The Dalit brothers, especially, are liberating themselves from the destructive influence of Brahmanism. The so called hue and cry made for 'unity and integrity' does not touch them any more. They have well understood the cunningness of brahmanical rulers veiled behind this hue and cry. Although these are magnificent accomplishments of our movement, still we are not free from big mistakes and inadequacies. Sometimes during our struggle we do commit something that is neither morally unique nor pious. Although we are marching towards our goal of achieving Khalistan with determination yet still we have not fully learnt how to go through this difficult terrain. The understanding and experience of our struggle are still diluted and superficial. We have still to develop a larger vision that crosses decades and centuries. We still keep doing something that gives our enemy an opportunity to question our proud and glorious history. Several times our arms have wrecked the joys, blossom and aspiration of those who had never directly hurt our movement. It appears sometimes as if we were trying to strike terror among the people although our commitment to the ninth Guru is neither to terrify nor to get terrified. Oh valiant brethren! Why are not our actions and deeds firing many colours and proliferating unusual effects of life? Why do we give the people an excuse to say that a wide gap has appeared between our thought, word and action. When we sin we become drunk within a victory of fault, when we lose we do not investigate its reasons. As a result a chain of losses begins. In such a situation we do not urge to re-integrate ourselves with transcendental consciousness of the Khalsa, nor do we seek the blessing of the Guru’s abode. We are becoming martyr’s, going to jails, bearing every attack of the enemy, but still in our basic thought, the gratitude to the Lord, patience and commitment have not fully penetrated. Sometimes, the glory of the material status, its power and shine captivate us, as a result we fall prey to material values and miracles. During such moments we do not passionately pray before the Guru Granth Sahib Ji to keep our unique character by heroism and spirituality higher and untouched by narrow ends. Several times we suffer from indecision. To free ourselves from this state instead of getting close to Guru Ji we rather choose distance. We are forgetting that during disagreement among us, the resolution of the entire Khalsa adopted at the Akal Takht can cement and guide us. Oh brave brethren drenched with the divine love of the sixth Guru, Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji! , why don’t you flock towards the Akal Takht for guidance? Our Guru Ji arms spread awaits us. At times, our baseless suspicions divide us into groups. We then patronise one group and to protect another we unnecessarily accuse the other groups crossing all limits. Our sword proudly falls on their necks. The Singh’s (the fighters) of the Khalsa Panth have to meet this serious challenge of the moment with determination and love, with a prayer for the enhancement of wisdom and humility of the mind. Will you follow this path our brethren after we are gone? Oh Singh’s of the procession of those walking with their heads on the palms for sacrifice! You carry on your shoulders the historic responsibility of recognising the main life stream and original form of the Khalsa and also the responsibility of identifying the deadly current of ignorance and temptation . This current, to obtain power, has fallen to act on brahmanical practices. Please understand the narrow motives concealed behind this current that on the surface appears to be pro-Sikh. Wage a war against it. Its divisive tendencies are to be strongly resisted. The people associated with this current have lost their faith in higher struggle. They have been tempted by the brahmanical reflexes and its allied power hierarchies. They have begun to like evanescent colours. Their actions do not reflect the message of Guru Nanak Dev Ji’s transcendental journey: nor do they illustrate any divine experience. Their state mirrors a schism between the mind and word. Declare that these people are false and they have disowned our path. If they want to be owned by the Khalsa and they feel that there is still in them a secret of truth enunciated by Guru Nanak Dev Ji let them advance straight towards Khalistan otherwise they will be thrown into the dustbin of history. Respected President Ji! After these few words with our nation we again address you. When we bid farewell to the world it will be a strange meeting of numerous contradictions. If we look at the world insightfully, the whole world is in turmoil, a powerful turmoil. With an alien eye it may look to be a destructive development. It feels as if human peace and action were going through acute disturbance, but the people with intuition can see all this from a different angle altogether. The humankind’s aspiration for freedom cannot be controlled in any system. Any effort to destroy this aspiration gets self-defeated in history. We are witnessing the same happening in our times also. The same passion for freedom, burning like a flame in the depths of the humankind gave birth to the great French Revolution. And then in the beginning of this century, watched tumbling down in history, the Tsarist regime that had become a symbol of terror and tyranny. But whatever systems have been built up on the ruins of Tsarism, has not succeeded in fully preserving and understanding the rush and aspiration of human freedom. All these massive artifices are showing cracks. What an irony of our times that the same people who had raised our ancestors’ flag of freedom became the murderers of freedom. We are saying this with deep sorrow that the same lands where lakhs of people laid down their lives fighting the Nazis, today are providing shelter to the murderers of the Sikhs. We mean the country of the great Tolstoy and Lenin - the Soviet Union and their East European allies, where the killers of hundreds of Sikh youths, like Bua and Rebiero are taking shelter under the pretext of holding diplomatic responsibilities. But at the same fresh winds of freedom blowing in these countries will not remain safe shelters for these murderers of humankind. To us that time is not distant when the people of these countries will hand over these criminals to us so that they can be given their due in the court of the Khalsa. The dark storm of oppression that is blowing over the Khalsa and the fire of tyranny that is burning it, must have touched at least a little, the souls of Lincoln, Emerson, Rousseau, Voltaire and Shakespeare because the people fighting for their freedom and sovereignty have the same blood flowing in their veins. But permit us to say that among the people of these great men’s lands, the urge to push their tradition is dying. Their spiritual values are drying up; they are unable to see the new sun shining in the land of Khalistan whose rays will also radiate the universe. We are hoping that they will accept the reality of Khalistan. We appeal to the United Nations to recognise the face of Khalistan so that the Khalsa nation can make historic contribution to the international peace and security according to the UN Charter, and may also help in building up the relations of tolerance and goodwill among India and its neighbours. Honourable President Ji! We are going to look into the eyes of death because we believe that the flag of life’s glory flies even in the face of death. Not only us, but our entire nation has taken birth by practising the art of keeping its head on its palm. The guns of evil will never frighten us. In this era of betrayals, we are going to meet our beloved in full faith and wholesomely. Our martyrdom will radiate only integration. We are feeling that martyrdom is a transcendence of all fears, greed, and obscene physical desires. The consciousness of the Khalsa is the most pure and luminous during the moments of martyrdom. We have chosen the path of martyrdom so that the ever fresh face of the Khalsa and its unique glory can come into its own once again, and enlighten the whole world. In their eternal joy and grace Guru Ji’s blessed us with a spark of their love. With that spark we are going to light up all the skies. With that spark we are in full blossom. Our love for freedom has taken us to a state of cosmic equilibrium ‘sahaja’. We have met our true Guru. The angles of the eternal symphony have arrived to congratulate us with all their families at this momentous hour of meeting. Martyrdom has a unique relish of its own. How wonderful it is!. Beyond the material and ineffable emotions. Please tell our nation not to be sorrowful. The sweet remembrance of that wearer of nom-de plume, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, flows like a river in us. Please tell them that the stream of love of the tenth Guru has already gushed forth in us. We are going towards the altar in a higher peace and divine poise. We are riding a unique boat that the currents are unable to sink. The maker has put together all the world perfectly. O Nanak, my Lord will not let even lakhs of sea currents sink the boat. The Khalsa has upheld the belief that wherever death comes, accept it with joy. For this reason please tell all those warriors of the world burning with the fire of freedom not to let go mellow the challenge thrown by us. Let their bursting bullets become a lament on our death. The rope of gallows is dear to us like the embrace of our Lover but if we are condemned to be prisoners of war, we will wish bullets to kiss the truth in our breasts so that the sacred ground of Khalistan becomes more fertile with our warm blood. We are restless to drink the measure of martyrdom for Khalistan

only 5 veerjee's post and understanding of the udasis is based on Gurbani, Bhai Gurdas Jee and Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale Jee's interpretation of those scriptures. Then how is only5 jee a protestant? if he is a protestant then so are his sources(Gurbani, Bhai Gurdas Jee, Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji). Only5 jee has systematically shown that Sant Hari Singh Randhawa Ji is in error in his interpretation and they contradict his own vidya ustaad Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale.

A hindu friend of mine once remarked SGGS is written in praise of Rama and Krishna - here are two shabads to debunk this myth - first is by bhagat namdev and second by Guru Nanak . ਆਜੁ ਨਾਮੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਮੂਰਖ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਊ ਰੇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Today, Naam Dayv saw the Lord, and so I will instruct the ignorant. ||Pause|| ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਲੋਧੇ ਕਾ ਖੇਤੁ ਖਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥ O Pandit, O religious scholar, your Gayatri was grazing in the fields. ਲੈ ਕਰਿ ਠੇਗਾ ਟਗਰੀ ਤੋਰੀ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਜਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥੧॥ Taking a stick, the farmer broke its leg, and now it walks with a limp. ||1|| ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ O Pandit, I saw your great god Shiva, riding along on a white bull. ਮੋਦੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਖਾਣਾ ਪਾਕਾ ਵਾ ਕਾ ਲੜਕਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਥਾ ॥੨॥ In the merchant's house, a banquet was prepared for him - he killed the merchant's son. ||2|| ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੋ ਭੀ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ O Pandit, I saw your Raam Chand coming too ਰਾਵਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਰਬਰ ਹੋਈ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਜੋਇ ਗਵਾਈ ਥੀ ॥੩॥ ; he lost his wife, fighting a war against Raawan. ||3|| ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ॥ The Hindu is sightless; the Muslim has only one eye. ਦੁਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ The spiritual teacher is wiser than both of them. ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥ The Hindu worships at the temple, the Muslim at the mosque. ਨਾਮੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਹ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਨ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥ Naam Dayv serves that Lord, who is not limited to either the temple or the mosque. ||4||3||7|| ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Aasaa, First Mehl: ਪਉਣੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਰੀ ਸਭ ਧਰਤੀ ਜਲ ਅਗਨੀ ਕਾ ਬੰਧੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ He created the air, and He supports the whole world; he bound water and fire together. ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਦਹਸਿਰਿ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਕਟਾਇਆ ਰਾਵਣੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਡਾ ਭਇਆ ॥੧॥ The blind, ten-headed Raavan had his heads cut off, but what greatness was obtained by killing him? ||1|| ਕਿਆ ਉਪਮਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਖੀ ਜਾਇ ॥ What Glories of Yours can be chanted? ਤੂੰ ਸਰਬੇ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ You are totally pervading everywhere; You love and cherish all. ||1||Pause|| ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਇ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਹਥਿ ਕੀਨੀ ਕਾਲੀ ਨਥਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਡਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ You created all beings, and You hold the world in Your Hands; what greatness is it to put a ring in the nose of the black cobra, as Krishna did? ਕਿਸੁ ਤੂੰ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਜੋਰੂ ਕਉਣ ਕਹੀਐ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥੨॥ Whose Husband are You? Who is Your wife? You are subtly diffused and pervading in all. ||2|| ਨਾਲਿ ਕੁਟੰਬੁ ਸਾਥਿ ਵਰਦਾਤਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਭਾਲਣ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਗਇਆ ॥ Brahma, the bestower of blessings, entered the stem of the lotus, with his relatives, to find the extent of the universe. ਆਗੈ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਕੰਸੁ ਛੇਦਿ ਕਿਆ ਵਡਾ ਭਇਆ ॥੩॥ Proceeding on, he could not find its limits; what glory was obtained by killing Kansa, the king? ||3|| ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਇ ਧਰੇ ਖੀਰੁ ਮਥਿਆ ਹੋਰਿ ਭਖਲਾਏ ਜਿ ਅਸੀ ਕੀਆ ॥ The jewels were produced and brought forth by churning the ocean of milk. The other gods proclaimed "We are the ones who did this!" Further there are other sloks like "Devi deva poojiye kya mango kya dey" "thakur chor cheri ko dhyave" Here is another shabad by bhagat namdev again ਭੈਰਉ ਭੂਤ ਸੀਤਲਾ ਧਾਵੈ ॥ One who chases after the god Bhairau, evil spirits and the goddess of smallpox, ਖਰ ਬਾਹਨੁ ਉਹੁ ਛਾਰੁ ਉਡਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ is riding on a donkey, kicking up the dust. ||1|| ਹਉ ਤਉ ਏਕੁ ਰਮਈਆ ਲੈਹਉ ॥ I take only the Name of the One Lord. ਆਨ ਦੇਵ ਬਦਲਾਵਨਿ ਦੈਹਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ I have given away all other gods in exchange for Him. ||1||Pause|| ਸਿਵ ਸਿਵ ਕਰਤੇ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥ That man who chants “Shiva, Shiva“, and meditates on him, ਬਰਦ ਚਢੇ ਡਉਰੂ ਢਮਕਾਵੈ ॥੨॥ is riding on a bull, shaking a tambourine. ||2|| ਮਹਾ ਮਾਈ ਕੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ One who worships the Great Goddess Maya ਨਰ ਸੈ ਨਾਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥ will be reincarnated as a woman, and not a man. ||3|| ਤੂ ਕਹੀਅਤ ਹੀ ਆਦਿ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ You are called the Primal Goddess. ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਬਰੀਆ ਕਹਾ ਛਪਾਨੀ ॥੪॥ At the time of liberation, where will you hide then? ||4|| ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗਹੁ ਮੀਤਾ ॥ Follow the Guru's Teachings, and hold tight to the Lord's Name, O friend. ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਇਉ ਕਹੈ ਗੀਤਾ ॥੫॥੨॥੬॥ Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. ||5||2||6||

See how none of this members post are ever based on Gurbani or Bhai Gurdas Ji vaars and then the katha coming from a respected Saint on the provided Gurbani or Vaar on Udasis topic. Its all hearsay and meritless sources. I say we need to thank Sant Baba Gurbachan SIngh Ji Maharaj every second for recording his Katha. Honestly if it was not for him today, then we would be following people influenced heavily by Devi and Devta worshipper thoughts. Anyway im not going to get into this name calling. I could careless this member calls me protestant thought. However Mods need to be fair here and delete such insults and give such a poster a warning for his constant insults formed in this manner over the months. When he doesn't have the evidence to back his hearsay, then he goes into insulting the others. Im not saying this as an insult, but this is very childish behaviour coming from a married man.

IF this so called story is in Suraj Parkash then present it. We always have the Sri Chand folloewers making claims such and such writing exist. Not to long ago one Sri Chand follower was claim Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Maharaj said Sri Chand recieved mukhti. Then Sant ji's recording came about and Sant ji based on Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars said this was not the case. Another Sri Chand follower said that a Sikh can have more than one wife by twisting Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars and Dasam Bani. So it is not enough to say such a story exist in a certain text. The evidence needs to be provided. And the onus is on the one who said it exist in a certain text to provide the exact section the evidence exist. No one is going to waste their time on these peoples claims when in the past they have been caught lying and caught twisting Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. They are not reliable.

when we read Guru Granth Sahib, Sri Dasam Guru Granth we are looking through gurmat not hindu matt or so on, hindu math looks at kaal de jeev as akaal....kaal vich rehndeya rehndeya manukh kaal nu akaal samaj behta-----in gurmat hindu dieties are described as being played out by no other than god, the lord, who maifests in all--if all like guru granth sahib explains and Sri Dasam then there is so second higher jeev as in dieties, even they are being played out by GOD---like in movie ramayan the first one, they only had 1 person to play raam and not another to play raavan so the person who decided to play raam also played raavan, same thing in reality god is playing every1 but its always hard to say our ''enemy'' or the other is also God---when looking through gurmat we look at the devte differently-explain that to him, other religions pose god as only their own as well as their dieites, not in sikhi

The Nirmalas aren't very different at all, they are very much like Sikhs. Sant Balbir Singh Ji Seechewal, a Nirmala Sant, was at our local Gurdwara y'day. He gave an amazing talk on environmental issues.

Auzer Since I don't know you personally, and vice versa, I can claim to have read 20 books on Islam and Pakistan's history and you'd never know if I was lying or being truthful. So don't bother telling me how well-read you are. Like Sherdil said, why do you keep backing off and twisting words to suit yourself? Don't worry about me being sensitive. What you read was me being tolerant, so if I was sensitive, then.....lol, yeah . As for 1965, maybe "Khemkaran" will ring a bell. Wikipedia isn't my only source of knowledge, nor is it 100% trustworthy. Look dude, we understand you are a Pakistani and a Muslim. I don't know about others, but I've grown up with your lot and have tons of friends from your background, so I know you people well (thats 1 claim I can make, and need no book for that). Your (i.e. your fellow folks) passion for Pakistan and Islam is deep-rooted, and thats awesome. Problem is when you (your folks) start dissing others. I've heard Muslims say "We ruled India for 1000 years, Spain for 800 years". Sorry sir, it was the Arab Muslims who did, not you. Once again, this is a Sikh forum, so please don't use it as a platform to preach Islam. If you need to ask something about Sikhi, go right ahead. If not, then its upto you what you want to do on here. We can exchange ideas/knowledge/info but remember this board will not be used as a medium to get converts (you don't seem like one of those but just wanted to get that straight).

She must be good on the plough. Everything else will fall into place.

Insulting the founder of a major world religion is not right. If you don't agree with something it's better to keep your views to yourself. This is a Sikhism forum, people come here to learn about Sikhism not insult other religions. The kind of content I see here sometimes and on other Sikh forums is exactly why I wouldn't suggest a Hindu or Muslim to learn about Sikhism from a Sikh discussion forum. Even if you don't agree with someone, does it hurt to be a little respectful to a fellow human being? **SSM edit : If you find any such posts that contradict Gurmat and/or violate the rules of the forums (like what you said in your post above), please feel free to report them so mods can see them faster. A lot of people view these forums and it's the duty of everyone, including those that post here, to ensure the environment remains tolerant and intellectual. Dhanvaad

Lol...you don't even know what baby boomers are. They are the children of American soldiers returning from WW2. What does this have to do with what we are discussing? The Pakistanis that told me they have 7 and 12 brothers and sisters were in my class. I didn't say Sufis aren't Muslims, but a lot of Muslims consider Sufis to be a heretic group. Their numbers are dwindling because they are being persecuted. Don't you read the news bro? Restraining means to hold back. I didn't say restraining. I said you guys are straining global resources. Straining means to thin-out, so there is less of it available. You are living in the middle ages if you think population doesn't put a strain on global resouces. Every species has a carrying capicity, which is the max capability of an environment to sustain that species. The earth, as an environment has a finite number of natural resources (like oil, timber, space to grow food), therefore it has a set number of people it can sustain. Money isn't a resource buddy. Do you even know what it takes to industrialize? It takes natural resources. That's more people needing food, water and electricity. There will be less space to grow that food. Also, more pollution and garbage produced by a higher population. What do you mean OUR resources? This is the 21st century. We live in a global economy. If we run out of oil because Ahmed and Shazia used it all up for their 12 kids, then that will affect the entire world. It's not just people in Pakistan. Those guys with 7 and 12 brothers and sisters are living in America. I know it's the same story in Canada and the UK, and every other country with a sizeable Muslim population. It's completely irresponsible and you guys just do it to pad your numbers.

One of the main reasons you believe Sufism is Islam is due to your Pakistani background. I personally believe Sufism is great. My point here is MAJORITY MUSLIMS do not accept Sufism as a part of Islam. Speak to a Pashtun or in fact go to Saudi and ask anyone if they believe Sufism is a part of Islam. I GUARANTEE you that none of them will accept Sufism. So your claim that Islam has gotten so many converts due to Sufism is false. The truth is, Islam WAS spread by the sword and may even be to some extent now. Truth is Christianity and Islam, the two major religions have spread because of Violence and history clearly proves that. Even Dr. Zakir Naik, one of the most respected scholar in the Muslim community has claimed that Sufism is incorrect. So how can a sect of Islam that is not accepted by MAJORITY Muslims themselves be the cause for spread of Islam?

Seems like a clear case of denial and twisting facts to cover shame of the truth.

If Sufis are so respected, then why are their mosques bombed in Pakistan? I had a Paki guy tell me that Sufis are mystics and thus not a part of mainstream Islam. You guys have like 7 children! I knew a Paki guy who had 12 brothers and sisters. Do you know that it isn't healthy for a woman to have more than 3 kids? It leads to pelvic floor injuries and urinary incontinence. Not to mention that you guys are putting a major strain on global resources. Having that many kids is just irresponsible. There is no need for it.

Wholewheat pasta is good. Making noodles from the stuff our mothers use for 'sehmiyaa' is also rather nice. Of course the tadka has to be light and not consisting of 5 blocks of butter, lol.

Auzar Ji, how was it inevitable? the making of Pakistan actually had more negative impact than good on the subcontinent. If Pakistan was not made, atleast there would have been a balance between the Hindus and Muslims. Sikhs, Christians and other minorities were safe as long as this balance was maintained. But since pakistan was created, it broke this delicate balance and made the Hindus into the overwhelming majority who can trample on the minorities any way they wanted as was done to the Sikhs, Indian Muslims, Christians. As an example, it's like the world situation since the end of the cold war. The world was in balance as long as there were 2 superpowers, but since the fall of the Soviet Union, the US has become the world bully which is not a good thing. Similarly in India there was a balance between Hindus and Muslims, but with the creation of Pakistan it not only weakened the position of the Indian Muslims but also made Hindus into bullies who can bully around any minority they want. Now since Pakistan was created, Sikhs feel(and for good reason) that they should have also had their own country instead of being left at the mercy of a Hindu majority India.

You might not have the time to respond to my so called flaws. But you didn't even have the time to listen to Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Maharaj's katha on the above shabad. If you would have then you would have known that someone was asking Satguru if he was a Yogi and etc and then came down to udasi. Satguru as Sant ji explains in his katha is explaining what it means to be an udasi. Benti, be less emotional and more objective. Did you read the other pauri in the same Vaar? Obviously you didn't as Sant ji says Satguru changed clothes as he put on Muslim garb when Satguru went to Mecca. Hari Singh Randhawa claims that Sri Chand came to Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and said give me this udasi garb you took off as you gave Gurgaddi to Satguru Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji Maharaj. Now since you have more gyan than me, produce the evidence to this claim. Even call up Hari Singh and ask him or contact any udasi and tell him to produce this evidence. So go through Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars and produce this for us. Give us gyan so next time we don't make this so called huge mistake. While your at it also do the arth of these two tuks of Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. Even get Hari Singh and the udasis to do it. Then we can see how much logic Hari Singh's story makes. A picture is not evidence.......just to let you know in advance. bwl jqI hY isrIcMdu bwbwxw dyhurw bxwieAw] baal jathee hai sireecha(n)dh baabaanaa dhaehuraa banaaeiaa|| Sirichand (the elder son of Guru Nanak) is celibate since childhood who has constructed the monument (in memory) of Guru Nanak. cMdn vwsu n vws bohwieAw ]33] cha(n)dhan vaas n vaas bohaaeiaa ||33|| They all were like bamboos who though lived near sandalwood (Guru), yet could not become fragrant.(33) Hindu saints have gyan and can get students into such big black holes that the student starts worshipping the Hindu saint because they percieve the Hindu saint has gyan. Smack the student with Gurbani and the student runs far away from the Hindu saint and grasp hold of an actual Saints feet.

Auzer ji, Islam was spread by the sword from its very inception. Muhammad led a conquest of Mecca didn't he? When he took it over, he destroyed all of the idols in the Kaaba and turned it into a mosque. This is a repeating theme. Look how many temples, churches and mandirs where destroyed and mosques built upon them. Or atleast converted into mosques. You yourself have stated in a previous post (I hope you don't go back and edit it now) that had it not been for Muslim empires fighting each other, Islam would have taken over Europe. Islam was introduced into Asia by invading Arab armies. Then brought into the subcontinent by Persian, Turkish, and Mughal armies. We Sikhs know the story of how Kashmiri Pundits came to Guru Tegh Bahadur, to ask for his help in saving them from forced mass conversions by the Mughal emperor. What of the jaziya enacted on non-Muslims? Surely, this caused the poorest people to adopt Islam because they couldn't afford to pay the tax. What of the hadiths that instruct how to rape captured non-Muslim women, so that you don't get them pregnant and thus decrease their value in the slave market? What of the offspring of Hindu mothers who were raped by Muslims (I guess they didn't follow the Hadith). These offspring were raised to be Muslim fighters and then sent to the front-lines to die for Islam. There is a lot more twisted stuff bro. You know the mountains in Afghanistan called Hindu Kush right? You know what Hindu Kush means? It means "Kills The Hindu" in Persian.

Guru Gobind singh ji has recorded bravery of Mahant Kirpal Dass an udasi, during battle of bhangani. When other udasis ran away Mahant Kirpal Das killed pathan hayat khan with his mace only.He was not trained in art of war. ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਕੋਪਿਯੰ ਕੁਤਕੋ ਸੰਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਹਠੀ ਖਾਨ ਹਯਾਤ ਕੇ ਸੀਸ ਝਾਰੀ ॥ क्रिपाल कोपियं कुतको स्मभारी ॥ हठी खान हयात के सीस झारी ॥ Kirpal in rage, rushed with his mace and struck it on the head of the tenacious Hayaat Khan. ਉੱਠੀ ਛਿਛਿ ਇਛੰ ਕਢਾ ਮੇਝ ਜੋਰੰ ॥ ਮਨੋ ਮਾਖਨੰ ਮਟਕੀ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ ਫੋਰੰ ॥੭॥ उठी छिछि इछं कढा मेझ जोरं ॥ मनो माखनं मटकी कान्ह फोरं ॥७॥ With all his might, he caused the marrow flow out of his head, which splashed like the butter spattering out of the pitcher of butter broken by lord Krishan.7. Bachitra Natak, sri Dasam Granth sahib Udasis have been a part and parcel of larger sikh panth.

This is really nice post i found on gurmat bibek.. A guy called Gurjant Singh was in dire need for money. He wandered here and there, tried many different things but could not succeed in improving his financial situation. One day Gurjant Singh was sitting in a park trying to relax after a very hard day. His face showed all his pain. A very mysterious person approached him and started the conversation: “You look very distressed. Is everything okay?” Gurjant Singh looked up and saw this person who had very piercing eyes and said, “Never mind about my problems. No one can help me. God has given me very bad luck”. “What is wrong with your luck?” “Why do you want to know? I don’t think you can help me. I have met many who promised me the world but no one has been able to produce any results”. “I have helped many people like you. This is what I do for life. I help people in need and you seem like a good candidate for help. Have faith and tell me your problem.” “I am going through financial crisis. I am under massive debt and if I don’t do anything very soon, I will lose my home, all my belongings and they may even take away my children and wife to work for them, till they get their money back. My son is waiting for an operation but I don’t have money. He will die if I don’t produce money. I have very little time and if I don’t do anything, I will have no choice but to commit suicide”. “Is that all? So all you need is money? I can arrange for as much money as you want. It is very simple”. “YOU CAN REALLY HELP ME? Please quickly tell me what you can do. I will do anything for you, if you can get me out of the financial crisis”. “I can take you to an enchanted garden where there is a very big building, full of money. You can collect as much as you want but you must share your money with me. My only condition is that you share your wealth with me. The minimum I need is a bag full of dollars. You can bring bags full of money from there”. Gurjant Singh could not believe what he was hearing. For a moment he thought that this person was just lying to him but the seriousness of his face had Gurjant Singh believe this man. Gurjant Singh thought for a moment and said, “Why don’t you go there yourself?” “Only you can go there. I don’t have access to that place.” “OKAY! FINE! I will not ask you the reason. What do I care? I only want money and that is it. Please take me there immediately.” “I must warn you of one thing. The place where we are going is highly enchanting. It is not as simple as just filling your bags. There is a lot of distraction there. If you don’t stay focussed on the purpose of your visit, you will end up not getting anything from there.” “I also want to warn you to stay away from certain type of flowers and foods there. If you smell those flowers, you will forget your purpose of this visit. That garden is ruled by a very beautiful but vile lady. If you get seduced by that lady, then too you will forget your purpose of the visit.” “Don’t worry about that sir. I am in a very grave situation and there is no way I will forget the purpose of my visit. If I forget my purpose, I will endanger my family, lose all money and my son who is awaiting an operation will die”. They headed towards the enchanted garden and before entering the garden, the mysterious man again warned Gurjant Singh. Gurjant Singh entered the garden and saw the most beautiful flowers and trees he had ever seen. The dark green grass was very neatly cut. He saw a huge building surrounded by gigantic trees. He did not see anyone there. The view was so beautiful that Gurjant Singh was losing his sense of urgency to accomplish his mission here. The more he looked at the scenery, more he was getting lost in the spectacular scenes. He entered the building and saw loads of money all over the place. He decided to fill his bags with money and gold. Just as he was about to fill his bag, the wall in front of him got lightened up with some scenes. It was like a movie screen. The scene was like a movie and was a very intense scene. He kept watching it, and forgot to fill his bag with money. He would not have moved, if his beeper had not started beeping. He had asked the mysterious man to remind him of his purpose. As he heard the beeper, he again started filling his bag with money. At every corner of the building there was a distraction for Gurjant Singh. He could not move two steps before bumping into a distraction. Beautiful girls too arrived to entertain him and he found himself getting entangled in the wonders of the building. He had limited time. He had to be out of there in 8 hours. So far he had not collected anything. Eight hours passed by and Gurjant Singh did not collect any money at all. All he had was a few coins in his pockets and a bag half filled. After 8 hours he was automatically ejected out of the enchanted garden. He came out empty handed. When he came out, he realized his mistake. He had lost a golden chance to better his financial situation. He was able to fill a small bag of money but that was taken away by the Mysterious man who had sent him in. It was his commission. Gurjant Singh was left with nothing. Please think! Are we all not acting like Gurjant Singh? Gurbani clearly says that “LOOTNA HAI TAU LOOT LAE, RAAM NAAM HAI LOOT”. Couple of days as I was travelling back from work and I was talking to my Gursikh friend. We were talking about Naam. A pankiti came in my mind – LOOTNA HAI TAU LOOT LAE, RAAM NAAM HAI LOOT. I uttered it and we both discussed how Raam Naam is loot. Loot means to get something free of cost. We then realized how this pankiti pertains to our situation. We have ample time and opportunity to japp naam but we don’t. Then we came up with this story that I shared with you all. Our situation is just like Gurjant Singh. We are in this enchanted land where we are supposed to take back to our homeland, bags full of Naam Dhan. But we don’t! We indulge in the pleasures of this world. I am pretty sure that we will regret when we die. Gurbani says so. We will regret why we wasted so much time and did not japp naam. To do all pleasures at cost of Naam are futile. REMEMBER THAT EVERY BREATH THAT WE LOSE IS NOT COMING BACK. WE ARE NOT LOSING OUR BREATH BUT A CHANCE TO DO NAAM. Let us not let a single swaas go without naam. Pyaariyo aayo naam japeeye. Let us indulge in Naam. Whether our mind focuses or not, we should not stop doing naam. PLEASE START RIGHT NOW. JAPP NAAM, JAPP BANI. Let us Create a sense of urgency to do naam. Without this sense of urgency, naam cannot be japped all the time. DIL AGAR DAANA BAVAD, ANDAR KINARASH YAAR HAST|| CHASHAM AGAR BEENA BAVAD, DAR HAR TARAF DEEDAAR HAST|| (Bhai Nandlal Goiya) (If the mann gets divine intelligence, mann can find yaar Vaheguru right inside. If the eye gets to the power to see, Vaheguru can be seen all over the place) Let us make our mind - Daana. A Daana mind is developed by reading and understanding baani. A daana mann will indulge in naam. An Ahmak mann will indulge in pleasures. Choice is ours. Do we want a Daana Dil or Ahmak Dil. Daas, Kulbir Singh

When the partition happened, much violence and death occurred between Sikhs and Muslims. This caused much ill will and mistrust between the two communities. Right after 1947, Sikhs got a raw deal from the Hindus in India. Pakistanis at the time began to use this as an opportunity to forge ties with the Sikhs. When 1984 happened, the Sikhs and Hindus began to literally hate each other. This event pushed Sikhs and Muslims closer due to mutual interests and a common enemy. Compared to the other minorities in Pakistan, the Sikhs are treated better. My uncle went to Pakistan on a Yatra a few years ago and told me this too. In the UK however there seems to be different story. The UK is the only western country whose Pakistani community is represented not by the Punjabis but by the Mirpuris. The Mirpuris have given much offense to the Sikhs which is why many Sikhs in the UK mistrust Pakistanis(as is evident from the UK Sikhs in this forum who have very negative feelings for Pakistanis). The Mirpuris have done much to ruin Pakistan's reputation amongst non-Pakistanis in the UK.

Once again the sikhs doing what they are best at - fighting between themselves within the temple.

well TBH, even english parcharak Bhai Sukha Singh says about those who doubt the authenticity of the Dasam Granth "how are they being allowed to breathe n be walking around", or sumthin along those lines anyways

The problem here is that it is being orchestrated by the Huddersfield Gurdwara committee. They're the ones that are responsible for promoting Gurmat. BUT it appears they themselves are indulging/promoting this Manmat activity.