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ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ Dhanaasaree, First Mehl: ਨਦਰਿ ਕਰੇ ਤਾ ਸਿਮਰਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ If the Lord bestows His Glance of Grace, then one remembers Him in meditation. ਆਤਮਾ ਦ੍ਰਵੈ ਰਹੈ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥ The soul is softened, and he remains absorbed in the Lord's Love. ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਏਕੋ ਕਰੈ ॥ His soul and the Supreme Soul become one. ਅੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਮਰੈ ॥੧॥ The duality of the inner mind is overcome. ||1|| ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ By Guru's Grace, God is found. ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ One's consciousness is attached to the Lord, and so Death does not devour him. ||1||Pause|| ਸਚਿ ਸਿਮਰਿਐ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਗਾਸੁ ॥ Remembering the True Lord in meditation, one is enlightened. ਤਾ ਤੇ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਰਹੈ ਉਦਾਸੁ ॥ Then, in the midst of Maya, he remains detached. ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਐਸੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥ Such is the Glory of the True Guru; ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਵਿਚੇ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੨॥ in the midst of children and spouses, they attain emancipation. ||2|| ਐਸੀ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ Such is the service which the Lord's servant performs, ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਧਰੈ ॥ that he dedicates his soul to the Lord, to whom it belongs. ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥ One who is pleasing to the Lord and Master is acceptable. ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਵੈ ਮਾਣੁ ॥੩॥ Such a servant obtains honor in the Court of the Lord. ||3|| ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਵਸਾਏ ॥ He enshrines the image of the True Guru in his heart. ਜੋ ਇਛੈ ਸੋਈ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਏ ॥ He obtains the rewards which he desires. ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੈ ॥ The True Lord and Master grants His Grace; ਸੋ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਜਮ ਤੇ ਕੈਸਾ ਡਰੈ ॥੪॥ how can such a servant be afraid of death? ||4|| ਭਨਤਿ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਰੇ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Prays Nanak, practice contemplation, ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਿਉ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ and enshrine love for the True Word of His Bani. ਤਾ ਕੋ ਪਾਵੈ ਮੋਖ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥ Then, you shall find the Gate of Salvation. ਜਪੁ ਤਪੁ ਸਭੁ ਇਹੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੫॥੨॥੪॥ This Shabad is the most excellent of all chanting and austere meditations. ||5||2||4|| ਗੋਂਡ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ Gond, Fifth Mehl: ਅਚਰਜ ਕਥਾ ਮਹਾ ਅਨੂਪ ॥ Wondrous and beautiful is the description, ਪ੍ਰਾਤਮਾ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾ ਰੂਪੁ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ of the beauty of the Supreme Soul, the Supreme Lord God. ||Pause|| ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬੂਢਾ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬਾਲਾ ॥ He is not old; He is not young. ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਦੂਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਮ ਜਾਲਾ ॥ He is not in pain; He is not caught in Death's noose. ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਨਾ ਇਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ He does not die; He does not go away. ਆਦਿ ਜੁਗਾਦੀ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥ In the beginning, and throughout the ages, He is permeating everywhere. ||1|| ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਉਸਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਸੀਤੁ ॥ He is not hot; He is not cold. ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਦੁਸਮਨੁ ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਮੀਤੁ ॥ He has no enemy; He has no friend. ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਹਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਸੋਗੁ ॥ He is not happy; He is not sad. ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਇਸ ਕਾ ਇਹੁ ਕਰਨੈ ਜੋਗੁ ॥੨॥ Everything belongs to Him; He can do anything. ||2|| ਨਾ ਇਸੁ ਬਾਪੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ He has no father; He has no mother. ਇਹੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਹੋਤਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ He is beyond the beyond, and has always been so. ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਕਾ ਇਸੁ ਲੇਪੁ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ He is not affected by virtue or vice. ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਜਾਗੈ ॥੩॥ Deep within each and every heart, He is always awake and aware. ||3|| ਤੀਨਿ ਗੁਣਾ ਇਕ ਸਕਤਿ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ From the three qualities, the one mechanism of Maya was produced. ਮਹਾ ਮਾਇਆ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਹੈ ਛਾਇਆ ॥ The great Maya is only His shadow. ਅਛਲ ਅਛੇਦ ਅਭੇਦ ਦਇਆਲ ॥ He is undeceivable, impenetrable, unfathomable and merciful. ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਸਦਾ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥ He is merciful to the meek, forever compassionate. ਤਾ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਮਿਤਿ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥ His state and limits cannot ever be known. ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੯॥੨੧॥ Nanak is a sacrifice, a sacrifice to Him. ||4||19||21|| ਤ੍ਵ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ BY THY GRACE ਦਿਨ ਅਜਬ ਏਕ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਅਨਭਉ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਹਦ ਅਕਾਮ ॥ On a day the curious soul (asked): The infinite and Desire less Lord, the Intuitive Entity. ਅਨਛਿੱਜ ਤੇਜ ਆਜਾਨ ਬਾਹੁ ॥ ਰਾਜਾਨ ਰਾਜੁ ਸਾਹਾਨ ਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥੧੨੬॥ Of everlasting Glory and long-armed; the King of kings and Emperor of emperors.1.126. ਉਚਰਿਓ ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਸੰਗ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਭੰਗ ॥ The soul said to the Higher Soul; the Germinating Entity, Unmanifested and Invincible; ਇਹ ਕਉਨ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜ ਅਤਿਭੂਤਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੨੭॥ What is this Soul Entity? Which hath indelible glory and which is of queer substance."2.127. ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬਾਚ ॥ The Higher Soul said: ਯਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜਿ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਕਾਮ ॥ This Soul is itself Brahman;" Who is of Everlasting Glory and is Unmanisfested and Desireless. ਜਿਹ ਭੇਦ ਭਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਲ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਰਬਾ ਦਿਆਲ ॥੩॥੧੨੮॥ Who is indiscriminate, actionless and deathless; Who hath no enemy and friend and is Merciful towards all.3.1228. ਡੋਬਿਓ ਨ ਡੁਬੈ ਸੋਖਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਕਟਿਓ ਨ ਕਟੈ ਨ ਬਾਰਿਯੋ ਬਰਾਇ ॥ It is neither drowned nor soaked; It can neither be chopped nor burnt. ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਸਤ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਤ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਤ ਪਾਤ ॥੪॥੧੨੯॥ It cannot be assailed by the blow of weapon; It hath neither an enemy nor a friend, neither caste not lineage.4.129. ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਹੰਸ ਸਤ ਸਤ ਪ੍ਰਘਾਇ ॥ ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਖੰਡਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ By the blow of thousands of enemies, It is neither wasted away nor fragmented. ਨਹੀ ਜਰੈ ਨੈਕ ਪਾਵਕ ਮੰਝਾਰ ॥ ਬੋਰੈ ਨ ਸਿੰਧ ਸੋਖੈ ਨ ਬਯਾਰ ॥੫॥੧੩੦॥ It is not burnt even in the fire. It is neither drowned in the sea nor soaked by the air.5.130. ਪ੍ਰਾਨ ਮੀਤ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਪੁਰਖੋਤਮ ਪੂਰਾ । ਪੋਖਨਹਾਰਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਨ ਊਰਾ । ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਪਤਿ ਸਦ ਸਦਾ ਹਜੂਰਾ । ਵਾਹ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਓ ਪੁਰਖ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਰੂਪ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸੂਰਾ । ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਜੀਅ ਜਪਿ ਸਚੁ ਸਚੀ ਵੇਲਾ । ਵਾਹ ਵਾਹ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ ੧੪ ॥ The life patron of Puranas, is the perfect Supreme Soul. Har, the Sustaining Lord, is not deficient in protection. Hail! Manifested is the Supreme Being in the countenance of gallant Guru Gobind Singh, Who is spectacular, and with his marvels, profusely he is Satguru, the True Lord. Remember day and night, the virtues of Har who, at the times honest, endows truth. Hail, hail (Guru) Gobind Singh; He, Himself, is the Master and the Disciple too. | 14 | Also check out this Shabad... http://sikhitothemax.com/Page.asp?SourceID=B&PageNo=&ShabadID=6463&Format=2 paarabreham pooran purakh paramaesur dhaathaa|| pathith paavan paramaathamaa sarab a(n)thir jaathaa|| har dhaanaa beenaa baesumaar baea(n)th bidhhaathaa|| banavaaree bakhasi(n)dh aap aapae pithaa maathaa|| eih maanas janam amol hai milanae kee vaelaa|| vaah vaah gobi(n)dh si(n)gh aapae gur chaelaa ||11||

This Policeman should be encouraged to tell all about the Genocide of Sikhs. The shocking thing is that a low level Policeman can kill 83 Sikhs , multiply that out with the thousands of policeman involved and figures of 250,000 Sikhs murdered seem quite plausible. He should be encouraged to spill the beans on his senior officers KP GIll, Saini and the political people involve from the Congress and some Akalis. The Sada Haq film and the general awareness of the Genocide is bringing people to talk about what happened.

ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਆਗ ਤੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਕੋਟਿ ਆਗ ਉਠੈ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਨਿਆਰੇ ਹੁਇ ਕੈ ਫੇਰਿ ਆਗ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥ jaisae eaek aag thae kanookaa kott aag out(h)ae niaarae niaarae hue kai faer aag mai milaahi(n)agae || As from a big fire, millions of sparks of fire arise, they get scattered and again they merge in the same fire. ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਧੂਰਿ ਤੇ ਅਨੇਕ ਧੂਰਿ ਪੂਰਤ ਹੈ ਧੂਰਿ ਕੇ ਕਨੂਕਾ ਫੇਰ ਧੂਰਿ ਹੀ ਸਮਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥ jaisae eaek dhhoor thae anaek dhhoor poorath hai dhhoor kae kanookaa faer dhhoor hee samaahi(n)agae || As from a heap that consists of myriads of dust particles, those dust bits disperse and arise above and then those dust particles merge in the same dust. ਜੈਸੇ ਏਕ ਨਦ ਤੇ ਤੰਰਗ ਕੋਟਿ ਉਪਜਤ ਹੈਂ ਪਾਨਿ ਕੇ ਤਰੰਗ ਸਬੈ ਪਾਨਿ ਹੀ ਕਹਾਹਿਂਗੇ ॥ jaisae eaek nadh thae tha(n)rag kott oupajath hai paan kae tha(n)rag sabai paan heekehaahi(n)agae || As from a river millions of waves of water are produced and these watery waves merge with water and will still be called as water. qYsy ibs rup qy ABUq BUq pRgt huie qwhI qy aupj sbY qwhI mY smwihNgy ] 17]87] thaisae bis rup thae abhooth bhooth pragatt hue thaahee thae oupaj sabai thaaheemai samaahi(n)agae || 17||87|| As both the animate (sentient beings) and inanimate (non-sentient objects) are manifested from the Universal Lord. They arise from Him and shall merge again in their primal source.(17)(87) The above quote from Sri Akal Ustat (Dasam Bani - 48) explains how 'Aatma' is a part of the 'Param-aatma'. The soul, as compared to God, is like a drop compared to the ocean.The drop, and the ocean, are both water. In the same manner, the soul and God are the same. When one remembers Sri Akaal Purakh ji whilst simran, it's very difficult to confine him into particular roles. With Maharaaj ji's kirpa, Sri Akaal Ustat explains in an extremely vast way about how Akaal Purakh ji is prevading the the universe and the world we live in. Above all of it, He is actually our real self. And it can be very hard to imagine it whilst doing simran if one hasn't yet had the 'darshan' of the real self. In my humble opinion, the easiest way of remembering Him whilst simran would be the Guru's role He's playing for us! To plead to Him, the Guru, to show us the real self, to show us the right path, to help us across the way, ....all of it can only be done by the Guru. And we sikhs are utmost blessed that Sri Waheguru ji is our Guru Himself! What else can one want! qUM myrw ipqw qUMhY myrw mwqw ] thoo(n) maeraa pithaa thoo(n)hai maeraa maathaa || You are my Father, and You are my Mother. qUM myrw bMDpu qUM myrw BRwqw ] thoo(n) maeraa ba(n)dhhap thoo(n) maeraa bhraathaa || You are my Relative, and You are my Brother. qUM myrw rwKw sBnI QweI qw Bau kyhw kwVw jIau ]1] thoo(n) maeraa raakhaa sabhanee thhaaee thaa bho kaehaa kaarraa jeeo ||1|| You are my Protector everywhere; why should I feel any fear or anxiety? ||1||

Not at all. If you talk to any Jatt about there being such a thing called a Punjabi Hindu Jatt before the Singh Sabha movement he will cry out "BLASPHEMY!!" nearly all of us have grown up to think that we were converted to Sikhi since either the Guru period or 1700s. It makes us feel good about ourselves knowing that almost like we have divine roots. But when we find out the truth we react in disbelief like a kid when he finds out Santa Clause is not real. There is no shame if your ancestor became a Sikh post 1700s period. My own family: my Dadke became Sikhs during Singh Sabha movement, my ancestor from my Naanke became a Sikh during the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule and they are from Patti(tarn taran) and subsequently joined the army of Lahore Durbar. So both sides of my family became Sikhs after the 1700s period. But today, except for my own family, everyone from both my naanke and daadke are now monay/patit. For me that is more shameful than anything else. The British were very meticulous when it came to their census reports. They had good reasons too. Most of their army was recruited from so called martial castes belonging to Punjab and Rajputana. Their census not only recorded how numerous the members of each caste were, but even down to every single Gote/gotra, it's population and which religion it's members subscribe to. Even the modern Indian census is not this detailed nor this accurate. The Brits used this information and created manuals on to which Gote they thought seemed fit enough for their army. For example amongst the Hindu Rajputs, some Rajputs were not recruited because members of their Gote might have participated in the 1857 mutiny, while those people belonging to the Gote which were loyal to them were given preference. Amongst the Punjabi Muslims, the Brits gave preference in recruitment to the Rajput Muslims of Pothohar region over all other Punjabi Rajput Muslims. Sikhs whose ancestor converted before the 1700s is not high nor mighty. I personally know of descendants of such respected puraatan Singhs like Mehtab Singh(killer of Massa Ranghar), Teja Singh Samundary(Akali movement leader) even a descendant of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee who are now Monay! does that make them a better Sikh than a rehitvaan Sikh whose ancestor became a Sikh post 1700s? or even a newly converted Sikh who is rehitvaan? Lets not act like how Arab Muslims act who treat non Arab Muslims as inferior to them.

Dedicated to my beloved vidhiya Guru: Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa (Bhindraa(n) jatha) In their remembrance, Dhan baba Thakur Singh Ji for all of my Sikh brothers and sisters - I love you ALL... Nitnem 6 written Santha.pdf

The Sikhs that he killed were probably all young Sikh boys. Imagine the pain their mothers and fathers must have gone through knowing their young son is no more. The worst part it, these Punjab police men doing the dirty work were belonging to Sikh community themselves. But greed for money was so strong in them they didn't once think what a huge sin they are committing for a few ruppees.

Haan ji real self cannot be explained as its nirgun roop and nirgun roop is attribute less but closest form for understanding- real self (atma-paratma) closest nature is Ik0ngkar Sat (Sat- Supreme Truth) Gur (Chaitan- Supreme consciousness) Parsad (Supreme Bliss- Anand)- Sat Chit Anand Our Real self does not have our own individual consciousness of our own (not like this is my real self and this is your type), there is no sense of individuality there as there is no ego even subtle form there is no birth or death of real self is ajooni as it does not have any karam on its own as real self does not have karam. To read more about akaal purkh nirgun roop (our real self) contemplate deep into mool mantar, jaap sahib, sri akaal ustat, 21st asthpadi of sukhmani sahib and among tuks in gurbani as dasamsarbloh granth veer posted.

I am the first Sikh in my family, all Hindus till now, does that count? :D

We are all guilty of debating or discussing outside of gursikh principles ((which includes me off course), just wanted to take this chance to post sakhi from Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji updesh to pandits on discussion/debates and whats allowed for Gursikhs. Four types of Conversations/discussion- 1) Heth - Where you listen to someone because you know they have more kamai and more knowledge than you. You are humble when listening. This also applies to school. 2) Vaadha - Where you actually do your research and share to positively add to a conversation constructively. Even if there is disagreement, you should not hurt another's feelings or prove that you are better. 3) Jalapa - Where you say stuff to put the other down. Try to make yourself look good. 4) Vitaardha - Where you keep talking and don't listen to anyone else (the majority of us). *** This is from a sakhi where some pundits asked Guru Hargobind Ji what type of conversations are allowed. Guru Hargobind Ji said a Gursikh only takes part in the first 2 types of conversations. ***

It's actually the other way round. In the censuses before the 1911 census, if a person with Kesh and a Sikh appearance presented themselves to the enumerator as a Hindu, his religion would be recorded as Hindu but he would be included in the Sikh figure, hence the large number of Hindu Sikhs in 1881. Only in 1911 were the enumerators instructed to record the religion as whatever the person said it was. So if a person of Sikh appearance called himself a Hindu, he would be placed in the Hindu total. The only censuses of the late 1800s were the 1881 and 1891 census. Your contention still fails because the 1901 census still showed a significant number of Hindu Jats. Well in 1901 after the flawed censuses of 1881 and 1891, in Jalandhar the Dhariwal Got had 1,164 Hindus and 1,518 Sikhs.

The old Indian saying "paap da ghada bhar gya" comes to mind.

Each community has it's traitors. Criminals who cannot make it in normal society so they willingly become the tools of others to oppress their own people. No doubt had Hitler successfully invaded England, he could have relied on thousands of English men and women to act as collaborators and to oppress their own people. All the occupied countries had this situation, so you can understand the mentality of such people if you consider Punjab to be an occupied land. What needs to happen if we really want to being greater understanding of what the Sikhs suffered to the wider western audience is to start to take affidavits from the people who lost sons to fake encounters. There must be hundreds of such people in Canada, USA and UK. Then use the laws already available in the free west to track down the lower rung killers. Those haram.zadas like that police officer who killed hundreds and then afterwards married their sons and daughters in USA and Canada and then joined them by being sponsored into that country. These haram.zadas are now living in retirement enjoying the fruits of a free society whilst they killed hundreds who also wanted freedom. If organisations like Sikhs for Justice can get a few convictions in the West, the floodgates will open and these haram.zadas will be singing like canaries implicating murderers like Gill and Saini.

Legal Singh, The reason why the debate is going in different directions is because points of view counter to your own are being presented and as yet you have not been able to give an answer to these. You said 1881 census was flawed but then what about the 1891 or 1901? Your point would have value if in 1881 Hindu and Sikh Jats were equal in number and in 1891 and in every census afterwards Sikh Jats jumped to 80% and Hindus fell to 20% of the non-Muslim Jat popilation. But this is not the case. You state that no Sikh Jat has discovered that he had Hindu ancestors. If you go back long enough you will get Hindu names. Have you asked every Jat and have they given you the same answer? You might just know Jats from your area and your area as you state was an area settled by Sikh Jats. You presented your point that the Sikh Jats, if they really received so many Hindu Jat converts then they would have increased as a percentage of the total Sikh population but I showed you with statistics that this was not the case because the non-Jat converts during the same period were so much higher. Unless you answer the above points then this debate will not be going anywhere.

Legal Veerji again u are missing a glaringly obvious point. Let's say African Americans (or Sikhs for the purpose of the analogy) comprise 5% of the American population in 1797. Let say half of the African Americans are Baptists (or from the Jatt tribe in this analogy). Let's say some argue that all African Americans that are Baptists today in 2013 were already Baptists in the 1700's. Then if the African American percentage of the American population jumps to 13% by 1947 (and in the analogy Sikhs, Hindu's and Muslims have equal birth rates in the period 1797-1947) ... then the Baptist percentage of African Americans should be closer to 20% in 1947. Do you agree with that or do you even disagree with that in terms of how the analogy relates to Punjabi's? Muslims and Hindu's are absolutely relavant as they are who overwhelmingly comprised the non-Sikh majority in 1947 If there are five red apples and eight green apples in a basket of thirteen would that make the red apples a minority? If there are five Dhariwals and eight Dhaliwals at a gathering do the Dhariwals consitute a minority of those present? As u know in 1797 Sikh were barely 5% of all Punjabi's and in 1947 Sikhs were 13% of all Punjabi's. Therefore in absolute numbers the "pre-1800 Sikh ancestry" Sikhs are a 5 in 13 minority within the Panth in this context. If the percentage of Sikhs with Jatt ancestry was 50% in 1797 then the Jatt percentage should fall to 20% of the Panth with a 160% influx of new non-Jatt converts to Sikhi. It didn't fall as low as that and without the Singh Sabha movement doing the massive parchaar they did to folks of all ancestries Haryana state would have been much bigger than the 1966 boundary and the Sikh Panth's current population far far smaller. By the way are u Dhaliwal or Dhariwal? :lol2: But seriously why not just throw your tribal identity in the trash as Guru Sahib ordered? When the Pakistani Muslims and Hindu Jatts in Delhi Police unleashed genocide on the Sikh Panth they didn't really care too much if one was of pre-1800 convert ancestry or if a Sikh was from one tribe or another. All the Muslims + Hindu's who despise us were interested in was that we Sikhs die a painful death as they fear+hate the Sikh ideology of equality + Manas ki jaath sabhe ek hi pechaanbo

isingh1699 has hit the nail on the head. Voluntary migration out of India was something peculiar to Punjabi Sikhs and to a lesser extent Punjabi Muslims. Of course the vast majority of indentured labourers to places like Fiji and Guyana were Hindus but these were lower caste impoverished Hindus from UP and Bihar. The only voluntary migration from higher caste Hindus was for educational purposes and this was to the UK and not to California or Canada. Legal Singh, So let's take the 1881 census to be deeply flawed and reject it outright. So is the 1891 census more accurate? It actually shows a DECREASE in Sikh Jats and an INCREASE in the number of Hindu Jats!! Even the 1901 census shows 1,539,574 Hindu Jats against 1,388,877 Sikh Jats. It is actually only in 1911 that the Sikh Jats go to 1,617,532 and the Hindu Jats decrease to 1,000,085. So were 1881, 1891 and 1901 censuses flawed and 1911 the first 'correct' census? With regard to Muslim Jats, beyond the Chenab river anyone who was not a Pathan or a Rajput and who farmed land was considered a Jat. The term Jat did not have the same meaning as it did in the rest of the Punjab. That is why there are so many smaller gots which are not found in the core Jat areas of Central and East Punjab. So in these areas castes which were not Jat were enumerated as such and continued to be enumerated as such throughout the census period. In the Central and East Punjab it would be impossible for a non-Jat to claim to be Jat. The increased in the number of Sikh between 1881 and 1931 was not solely among the lower castes. Rajputs increased by 289% Sainis by 573% Aroras by 300% Khatris by 49% Kambohs by 215% Gujjars by 203%

There are many sad parts to this whole story, but one of the most saddest parts that stood out to me is the fact that even this man's truth isn't clean and free. His truth has many strings attached to it and is covered with corruption, anger, revenge and greed. The only reason he came out with this truth is to vent his frustrations and to get back at all of his higher-ups who didn't give him the promotions which he was promised in return for conducting all of those fake encounters. After all of these years he probably didn't feel bad about anything and was probably drooling and dreaming about all of the promotions that he would get sooner or later. Then after 24 years of working with the Punjab Police, he realizes that he isn't getting any more promotions and didn't reach nearly as high-up as he dreamed, so now he comes out with the truth. To me, that's one of the saddest parts of this whole thing. That the truth isn't even the truth anymore. It has corruption, greed and strings attached to it. If he got (close to) all of the promotions he wanted, he probably would never have came out with this confession. Maybe this is why Guru Sahib wrote the following, in order to combat such types of 'truth tellers': Sachoh Ourai Sabh Ko Oupar Sach Aachaar |5| Truth is higher than everything; but higher still is truthful living. ||5|| Because even if someone tells the truth, it is still nothing compared to truthful living. A prime example is the case we have here in this topic. Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Sahib Jeeo Maharaj!!!

bhenji , daas feels that its like we can relate to god as any thing which suits us.......like a lonely folk can think god as his/her friend,a widow can treat him as a husband,an orphan as his parent,because god is everything whole of the universe is god himself sabh gobind hai..... guru sahib ji blesses us tu mera pita,tu hai mera mata tu mera bhantab,tu mera brata so how u like u can think..there is no bounds :smile2: :smile2: ... in sri jaap sahib ji maharaj salutes everything,bcoz god is everything............... so how we relate is upto us but main thing is do do simran for it salute to u....though this is just daas tuchi budhi

This is an issue of the sanctity of marriage. Whether hetrosexual, homosexual or bi-sexual we have all come into this world through hetrosexual marriage. Therefore, to attack this sacred institution is hypocritical and wrong. We have no right to change the very definition of marriage, which is exactly what is being done here. No-one is saying that Homosexuals should be persecuted or harrassed..........but they have no right to change the definition of marriage. Homosexuality is a perversity of the mind......instead of trying to legitimatize this disease, we need to help people cure it with Gurbani. If you have these type of dirty thoughts, seek help from the Guru to cure yourself.......don't be stubborn and cheeky and expect to have this blessed in a Gurdwara. O Sikhs, we are facing so many problems because of the weakening of our family values and now we are even considering this nonsense !!! Are we even meeting the average fertility required for a culture to survive of 2 kids per family ???? THESE are the things we need to be talking about not bakwas that is going to take us backwards.

Your just making me repeat myself. I've already stated why only a heterosexual relationship ( in the context of Anand Karaj) is not only permissible but necessary.

I feel we're going around in circles. In the end Sri Alal Takht's Hukam is clear and unequivocal. There really is no space for this Bakwas in Sikhi. I feel homosexuals are utter kanjars to be precise.

Yes Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji protected the rights of Hindus to practice their dharam, hence the term 'dharam di chadar'. But protecting the rights of homosexuals is equivalent to 'shaitan di chadar'. There is a major difference in protecting the rights of someone practicing their faith or indulging in manmath behaviour. I have already used the alcohol analogy. Would 'Sikh's' protect the right of alcoholics drinking more alcohol or give them a helping hand? Yes Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji protected the rights of Hindus to practice their dharam, hence the term 'dharam di chadar'. But protecting the rights of homosexuals is equivalent to 'shaitan di chadar'. There is a major difference in protecting the rights of someone practicing their faith or indulging in manmath behaviour. I have already used the alcohol analogy. Would 'Sikh's' protect the right of alcoholics drinking more alcohol or give them a helping hand?

Someone get this cop out of country before he gets killed like jaswant singh khalra...yes this cop murdered innocent people on order of big officers, he should face ultimate fate in criminal court but he is small fish in the big pond..real crocodile is kps gill , sometimes you have to use small fish/work with small fish in the pond in order to get to crocodile..hopefully someone record all his statements and register the case in international criminal court and get him out as prime witness.

Are you gay? Do you know that 100% or is this your opinion?

This topic shouldn't even need to be discussed on a Sikh forum. All religions don't allow same sex marriages, so what's the difference in the Sikh religion. @POODNA- If God created everything and God created Homersexuals, then how is this a sin?

You must have a problem with understanding simple English. For the N’th time all I am saying is that from a Sikh prospective homosexuality is an unacceptable sin like countless others such as rape, paedophilia and slavery. I have not gone as far as saying which is worse as I don't consider that my duty. It is enough knowing it is wrong to prevent it (or you would think so).

Well put Veer Ji. I couldn't agree more! Bole So Nihal! Sat Sri Akal!!

Legal Singh Jee, you cannot just conveniently dismiss factual proof like census data just because it does not agree with your preconceived notions. Pick up any book on the history of Jatts, written by historians, they always quote these census reports for every Gote they write about. I'm not doubting your own family's historical link to the past. But to say every single Jalandhar Jatt became a Sikh during or before the 1700s is not accurate. 1700s is the most difficult time in Sikh history. Sikhs faced genocide after genocide. It was considered a crime just to be a Sikh and this crime was punishable by death. Sikhs were forced to abandon their homes and live in jungles just to survive, this was no easy decision for those brave Singhs. To say every single Jalandhar Jatt was a Sikh warrior during this time is a very bold statement. Only 5% of people in all of Punjab(of all castes) were brave enough to want to be Sikhs and they were evenly yet thinly distributed all over Majha, Malwa Doaba. Majha probably having the largest share, followed by Malwa then Doaba to be historically fair.

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh sadh sangat ji daas was reading tankhanama of bhai nand lalji and came to this tuk so bacically one has to read rehras sahib or listen ?

listen and recite along is ok to . does actuay say sunai

Very few Sikhs were part of the army that attacked Sri Darbar Sahib. The Indian army could just get a few so called traitor Sikhs like Brar, Dyal as a show for the world, and say to them "see even Sikhs supported operation bluestar." Most of the Sikh soldiers were brought in after the attack for the purpose of cleaning up the blood. Thousands of Sikhs mutinied during the attack and were trying to make their way to Punjab. Unfortunately, since they were already moved to far off locations away from Punjab they could not reach Punjab to do anything. These soldiers were disorganized and were later caught, some were tortured and the rest were suspended.

Talk is cheap, i ignore manmukhs, i have sat with many meat eater,smokers,drinkers,gamblers in my time at least they know they are wrong but you justify your action by saying it is part of sikhi, if you truly follow your Guru then why are you afraid of amrit and talk about fake panj pyare, where have you met fake panj pyare its all in your head, to me you are fake who talks sikhi but ignores amrit/rehat , your comments and you will never be taken seriously actions speak louder than words!! go and eat your goat :lol2: When did i say sikhi was not for all humanity ? you object to the word believe it means to accept something is true, so according to you a sikh should not believe in anything, you have lost the plot!! do you believe SGGS ji or not. As for punishment you worry about yourself not me, so you dont believe in the concept of punishment fine, i suggest you read/listen to Gurbani a little more carefully in future, but i suppose you twist the meanings to suit yourself like many other do. If you listen at all ! You say you offered a lot of evidence when ? its a sign of a believer to ignore evidence and continue talking, not a sikh. Why would i listen to the ramblings of a manmukh when their are many parcharks and plus i can read for myself also i can judge what is right and wrong you know !! so now according to you anyone who does not listen to you is not a sikh, not another new baba are you !! :lol2: I dont use the word Dass because no point showing humility if it does not come from within, that would be false, and at this moment in time talking to you i dont! As for meat and getting strong giving shahdat etc what a load of bull !!!, I grew up on the same meat you keep going on about, now i dont eat it, i feel much healthier and stronger, so my personal experience out weighs your talk as far as i am concerned. like previously stated i sat with many manmukhs, i was one myself been on both sides and i know whats best for me, so you follow your path, i will follow fine and we will both find out the truth in the end. I have no doubt about that !! :biggrin2: We have a lot of people on this forum who talk big on sikhi, but do not want to commit, and take Amrit, when i was not amritdhari i never came on this site or any other similiar sites. I kept my mouth shut because i thought how can i talk if i can not do it myself !! :no:, its one thing asking for advice/ chit chat etc but questioning core sikhi fundamentals and cant even commit, how these people can talk is unbelievable. The End !

it depends how high you set the benchmark, getting angry is not breaking amrit, its how you react when you are angry that matters. Amritdharis are only human, they are sikhs not Guru ji, but unfortunately non amritdharis think they have to be saints, which is not true, they have to folow certain rules agreed (rehat) taking amrit is the first step to becoming Khalsa, Its making a commitment to your Guru to try and follow his path, it does not mean you have become a Brahmgiani or found liberation that comes with Guru grace and kamai.

I have not taken Amrit. says it all really, you have given no real evidence, its all your own views, lets suppose you are correct about the past, for you to eat meat is fine thats your choice not arguing about that, but those of us who have been told at our amrit sanchars not to eat meat by the panj pyare have to follow their command because they are Guru and the 10th Guru himself is present at that time,(is this what you refer to as slave mentality?), Now that we have been told in this day and age not to eat meat by the panj pyare the past is no longer applicable because the Guru can change his ruling at any time and we must follow, as for kutha meat that applies only when all other sources of food are exhausted/not available i.e famine etc. For you to say my Gurus ate meat as did my ancestors i will too, thats your opinion/manmat,you follow your man, but some of us follow our Gurus ruling as it is today given to us at our amrit sanchar. you eat your goat,etc what ever pleases you but kindly refrain from trying to make it sound like that eating meat is ok today in sikhi,and sikhs who say no to it are wrong, when clearly according to panj pyare at most amrit sanchars it is not ok to eat meat and i believe them over your manmat views, which will not help me here or in the next world !!! When i myself was not amritdhari, i ate meat but i never for once said its ok in sikhi or my Guru ate eat, i will too etc, sounds like you are trying to justify why you eat it are you feeling guilty or something ? just shows how lost/foolish you are to make such a statement as this,if you eat then thats your problem who cares. you eat it fine, we dont so lets leave it at that, the reason i made the statement about no meat is according to the hukam of most panj pyare if not all, (personally dont know any who say it is ok to eat it). personally i dont believe a non amritdhari can say our rehat untill he/she fully commits to the Guru by offering their head/taking amrit and the reason i say this is that they can do something against rehat and not have to answer for it in the same way ,but an amritdhari has a serious dilema if he/she breaks rehat, thats why some people never commit and take amrit because they are afraid that they can not keep rehat.

I totally agree with you, Jonny, that having a longer line of ancestors who were Sikh means nothing. It is foolish to feel pride in such a thing if you yourself are falling short. And yes, I too have seen examples of Sikhs who come from well known families (from the Lahore Darbar or families that were prominent during the misl period) who are now monay. I can only speak for myself, but the main reasons I am interested in this discussion have nothing to do with trying to establish which group of Sikhs are more "pakkay" or true. Rather, I want to know: 1. Considering how we are one of the only major faiths which did not grow by forced conversion, it is interesting to learn about when and why our ranks grew 2. I find it rather surprising that basically all punjabi-speaking jatts in India are Sikh while basically all hindi-speaking jats in India are Hindu. Why is this split so perfect? 3. It's always interesting to hear perspectives that challenge what we conventionally hold to be true, and that's why I wanted to know more about the example of your family 4. Identity is such an integral part of Sikhi, and it is interesting to explore what has defined us over the years and what that might say about our future Anyway, what would you say about my theory that the shift in numbers largely had to do with how people were being identified (by themselves and the British)? From what I've read about Punjab prior to the Singh Sabha movement, there was a large population of Punjabis who observed some Hindu practices along with some Sikh practices. Perhaps it is most accurate to say that what the Singh Sabha movement did was not so much convert people, but rather define more clearly for the masses how Sikhi was supposed to be practiced, and in turn influence people who had already been exposed to Sikhi to start practicing it properly. In 1881, for instance, a sardar who practiced some Hindu rituals might have been counted as a Sikh. On the other hand, monay jatts who partook in Sikh practices as well as Hindu practices might have been counted as Hindus. After the Singh Sabha movement, many Sikhs had stopped practicing Hindu rituals so it may have been easier to distinguish between Hindus and Sikhs. Moreover, I'm wondering if many of the monay jatts of 1881 who tread the line between Sikhi and Hinduism (and were probably counted as HIndus) had by 1931 become keshdhari sikhs (or their descendants had become keshdhari sikhs). That could explain both the discrepancy in the Sikh/Hindu division among jatts, while at the same time not directly conflicting with the widely held view that the vast majority of jatt Sikhs have had Sikhi in their family (whether in the strict khalsa tradition, or as monay who observed some Sikh practices) since the early 1700s.

Sikhs are NOT affected by this and we shouldn't feel negative towards it, in fact we should welcome equal rights for all. I'm pretty sure the situation in the US (although some states disallow it entirely) is the same as in the UK. Gay marriage is mostly politically correct nonsense. We ALREADY have Civil Partnerships/unions which give gay couples the same exact rights as a marriage. It's amazing that in the UK gay couples can get TWO forms of marriage whereas straight couples only get to choose the one... That's fairness right there... That said we must not forget that gay people don't CHOOSE to be gay. They just developed to seek out same sex relationships, it's beyond their control. Fact is whether we like it or not there are gonna be gay Sikhs out there, even if they were born into macho Punjabi culture. Does that mean Gurdwara's should allow Gay Marriages to take place in them? HELLZ NO. Our values are CLEAR. A Gurdwara shouldn't allow Anand Karaj for gay couples. A Gurdwara shouldn't allow Anand Karaj for anyone who ISN'T Sikh either. It's just that simple, and changing the rules (especially just for collecting money) is an insult to the values of Sikhism. It's a lie and an insult directed STRAIGHT at the Guru Granth Sahib. You can't pick and choose what values you want to keep, religion isn't supposed to work that way. The values of Sikhism have ALWAYS been incredibly modern and ridiculously fair, they don't need to be altered. If marrying someone of the same sex makes someone happy, then more power to them! Rules are still rules, and they were put in place so the Khalsa could prosper and make the world a better place. Sikhs who happen to be gay should understand and respect that, the religion CANNOT change just so you can have a pretty wedding. Even though gay people are generally about as nice as you can get, the amount who actually WANT to get married isn't as big as you might think it is. It's well known gay people are among the most open when it comes to relationships.

I don't care about what people do in their personal lives but when they bring Sikhi and Guru Sahib into it, it's just plain wrong. The link above shows direct beadbi of Sikhi.

What's sad about the figures overall, is that despite the message of 1699, Sikhs were reluctant under British divide and rule policies to surrender their old tribal identities as specifically ordered by Guru Gobind Singh Ji with the birth of the Khalsa Panth. Can we even call ourselves Sikhs if some still hold on to old tribal identities in 2013?

There is no difference between atma and paratma in essence. However, it appears different, when one associate themselves with body, egoistic mind, individuality. Rise above from body, egoistic mind and individuality by surrendering your body,mind, ego to satguru ji and do naam simran and self inquiry (associate one with real self only) and slowly one will realize their daulity is destroyed and there is no difference. We all one day or one life time under hakum of akaal purkh/guru maharaj kirpa, all of us will go back to our source where we came from and merge with paratma .

let me correct you . You want to have Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji at your home , Correction - no one can own Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji . Its not a book , its our living Guru . There are number of protocols which a person have to follow to get Saroop of our Guru at home :- 1) person shoudnt drink. hukamnama from Akal Takath states that Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji will not be in any ones home if they have liquor there. 2) person shudnt smoke 3) you need a seperate bed for Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji 4) you need to wakeup at 2-3 am in morning to do prakash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji 5) and before that you need to clean that place thoroughly with milk and water mixture. 6) you need all clothes washed and cleaned for our Guru 7) you the person sitting behind Guru sahib must have a full body shower with hair. 8) if your went to <banned word filter activated> you will need full shower before sitting behind Guru sahib 9) you need a person to do Chor over Guru sahib 10) you need a throne for Guru Sahib 11) shoes are not allowed in Guru sahibs room , not is alcohol smoke etc 12) morning ritual of waking up Guru sahib and reading from Guru is called Prakash now i wont go in the details and these are not even half yet no , i am not trying to scare you away from sikhi but how important it is to us being clean when we handle our sacred scriptures however i would suggest you to read an online translation here are the steps you must follow 1) the pc should be placed on a little higher ground where you sit , if its a laptop its fine. 2) clean your pc , no dirty hands to touch your laptop 3) dont keep our food and eatables while reading guru sahib 4) if you have drank alcohol , do a shower and wear clean clothes when going infront of guru sahib 5) no porn on your pc/laptop where you are reading Guru sahib . its a strict NO rather then starting from Guru sahib i would suggest you to starting reading 5 morning bani's and do simran of waheguru. wakeup at 4-6am you can have a video played for Japji sahib with english translations hope didnt scared you off. but its our Guru and all rules are to be strictly followed

You are not in the business of comparing homosexuality to other sins yet you group it with the most sinful of acts like murder, rape etc. My friend you are already comparing it to other sins.

That's not the point I made. For the N'time my point is homosexuality is a sin from a sikh prospective and im not in the business of comparing it to other sins. There is no obligation to protect the right of anyone practicing a 'sin'. The Guru's never did this and it seems ludicrous worrying about the 'rights' of such people.

As I've mentioned I'm not in the business of saying who's worse. That's Dharam Rai's job. I am however saying homosexuality is a sin just like paedophilea, slaveowners etc. Using the term shaitan does not make you Muslim. It's used informally throughout common punjabi. Your just looking for lame arguments that's don't support your case. At the end of the day Sri Akal Takht have not only condemned homosexuality, they have quite rightly ridiculed it. Just 10 years earlier nobody would have had a problem with this. The reality is western society see homosexualsas a race. It's NOT a race. It's a despicable behaviour and should be treated as such.

That's not the point I'm making. It is a term used synonymously to describe any sort of manmath practice or vice.

You have entirely missed the point. And if you realise homosexuality is a manmath behaviour and still feel an impulsion to protect the 'right's' of people to practice this behaviour then your seriously confused. Yes Guru Sahib taught us to treat the human race as one but this has nothing to do with 'human race'. This is a behaviour that is not only out of line with Sikhi, but a hinderemce to salvation. There should be no obligation to protect the 'right's' of people to practice it. Would yoi start protecting the 'rights' of alcoholics to drink more alcohol or encourage/help them in quiting drinking? Our actions MUST be consistent with our parchar. Nanak naam chardi kala, tere bhane sarbat da bhala.

I don't understand how this has become an issue for debate ? If we were having this discussion 10 years ago we would have all agreed that homosexuality is a sin. But today due to the western world accepting homosexuals people find it a means by which we must change our religious values in order to be harmonious with society.

Yes bro I agree with you in the sense that heterosexuality is kaam at the end of the day. But when you take pre-marital sex, adultery and promiscuity out, with a deviation to god, gristi jeaven between husband & wife is what Guru Ji has advocated. Indeed 9 out of 10 of our Guru's lived a married life (other than Guru Har Krishan who passed away aged 8). Yes sex is integral to procreation, but there is much more it than just that. I suggest you read the 4 lavh's read in an Anand Karaj. Bhul chug maaf

Ask, scientists today science is about politics. They are hand to mouth for grants, and yea they will find what wants to be found. Look up all the metal tools found in rocks 100k's years old, or footprints with dinosaurs or humans milions of years old wearing sandals. Why is the most ancient name for India, Island?? The most ancient human name given. VJKVJF||