degradation of kirtan

[Jaspaul Singh]

Akal 108 you have basically called akj a group of evil sprits, read your first post. Waheguru waheguru! how many gursikhs have you slandered? Many great gursikhs were and are involved in akj style kirtan:

bhai randhir singh jee

bhai jeevan singh jee

master niranjan singh jee

joginder singh jee

Many others

Do ardaas and ask for forgiveness, my advice, up to you to listen to my advice.

101930[/snapback]

My first reply was especially referred towards 2nd link - drawof provided...

i don't know if you listen to it or not..it's scary...here is the rhythm used in that file after fwd- 1 minute and 5 seconds:

first starts with

vahigurooooo for few seconds that's fine...but then that person makes an twisted turn- hurraaaaahaaaaahhhhavh haa haa brauhhhhhhh grrrrrrrrrrrrr at the back ground for 1 minute- it's still simran going - vahiguroo vahiguroo (again that is fine) it just that person making scaring noises which is scary.......

so STOP patronising ME !!!!

I haven't done any nindya... I said whatever i heard from that clip....i m not used to this.. nor i want to get use to it...it's not for me...if this is simran of vahiguroo for you guys..CHEERS.

not for rest of Sikh Panth-

Real simran starts when your surat /mind starts doing simran inside at trikurtiiiii then above stage is listening dhuni leading to final stage Nirvakalap Samadhi... !!!!!!!!!

somebody brought up a point of love...anything goes in love for guru ji...so this type is acceptable..

ok i wonder if your answer will be same...if a black person who takes amrit dhari comes up to the stage- and starts doing vahiguroo Jap in rap with his hands moving all the time !!!!!!!!!!!!!

101942[/snapback]

why dont u find out who that kirtanee was ... im sure it would be EASY to do dat for u ... and then ask him urself instead of attacking him ... and yes this is nindya... doesnt matter if he was wrong or right... ur still talkin bad about him...

anyway ... rest is up to u ...

[jss]

akal veerji,

you should know better than to ask me what i'd think about a black brother doing jaap of gurmantar in raap....short answer...

he's doing his bhagti in the way he knows how using the GURMANTAR given to him by panj piyaraaas....that's enough to be happy about!

i find it interesting that you said REAL SIMRAN STARTS in the SURAT...

it was not too long ago that you advised me to listen to the divans of Sant Ishar singh ji on simran..i distinctly remember him saying that simran for beginners starts at the RASNA..then it goes to breathing then to other areas...

i have done sangat of puran mahapursh who also say simran should start from the rasna...

unless you have done some serious bhagti and seva and are attuned with the Lord 24/7...i'd ask you to refrain from making blanket assertions such as the one you made...i'm not saying you were totally off base...i'm saying that what you have said might be what is right for you, doesn't make someone else's path wrong...

[japmans]

note to all..... akaal108 singh has defined what is REAL simran.... if you don't fit this, your simran is fake, and you will burn in narak?

either way...read jss's post... and iit's something i think we all forgot.. i know i did.... king of kings, but my mommy, my daddy, and my best bud!

large double-double please!

[shamsher]

I just find it interesting to see people who used the argument of love for Maharaj when it suits them, in a highly selective way...The same that use this "love for Maharaj" argument to get people to take amrit (a good thing in itself) are the same that in order to disguise their own laziness and incompetence say: Well it doesn't matter if I don't know raags as long as I sing with pyaar ...

There is no doubt that Baba RamRai loved his father but even just changing one line of gurbani got him disgraced. Raag kirtan just like khande da amrit is an essential part of Sikhi to disrespect it is simply unacceptable. Yes Maharaj is all merciful but this is no excuse for being lazy and un-cultured.

[Guest Akaal108]

akal veerji,

you should know better than to ask me what i'd think about a black brother doing jaap of gurmantar in raap....short answer...

he's doing his bhagti in the way he knows how using the GURMANTAR given to him by panj piyaraaas....that's enough to be happy about!

i find it interesting that you said REAL SIMRAN STARTS in the SURAT...

it was not too long ago that you advised me to listen to the divans of Sant Ishar singh ji on simran..i distinctly remember him saying that simran for beginners starts at the RASNA..then it goes to breathing then to other areas...

i have done sangat of puran mahapursh who also say simran should start from the rasna...

unless you have done some serious bhagti and seva and are attuned with the Lord 24/7...i'd ask you to refrain from making blanket assertions such as the one you made...i'm not saying you were totally off base...i'm saying that what you have said might be what is right for you, doesn't make someone else's path wrong...

101945[/snapback]

Yes off course it starts with rasna but real simran starts with surat ..rasna stage is beginning stage...rasna is where you jap gurmantar aloud- Vahiguroo but in this case we are talking about something different..we are talking about SCREAMING AND YELLING of NOT VAHIGUROO but this RHYTHM - hurraaaaahaaaaahhhhavh haa haa brauhhhhhhh grrrrrrrrrrrrr !!!!!!

[Jaspaul Singh]

akal veerji,

you should know better than to ask me what i'd think about a black brother doing jaap of gurmantar in raap....short answer...

he's doing his bhagti in the way he knows how using the GURMANTAR given to him by panj piyaraaas....that's enough to be happy about!

i find it interesting that you said REAL SIMRAN STARTS in the SURAT...

it was not too long ago that you advised me to listen to the divans of Sant Ishar singh ji on simran..i distinctly remember him saying that simran for beginners starts at the RASNA..then it goes to breathing then to other areas...

i have done sangat of puran mahapursh who also say simran should start from the rasna...

unless you have done some serious bhagti and seva and are attuned with the Lord 24/7...i'd ask you to refrain from making blanket assertions such as the one you made...i'm not saying you were totally off base...i'm saying that what you have said might be what is right for you, doesn't make someone else's path wrong...

101945[/snapback]

Yes off course it starts with rasna but real simran starts with surat ..rasna stage is beginning stage...rasna is where you jap gurmantar aloud- Vahiguroo but in this case we are talking about something different..we are talking about SCREAMING AND YELLING of NOT VAHIGUROO but this RHYTHM - hurraaaaahaaaaahhhhavh haa haa brauhhhhhhh grrrrrrrrrrrrr !!!!!!

101950[/snapback]

Would you stop outlining this over and over again !!! Like i said why dont you go to THOSE who actually did this and ask them directly why they did it !? Maybe you might get a direct answer instead of talkin about them !?!

[Guest Akaal108]

Dasan Dass,

easy man !..

I am clarifying this to jss...

[jss]

hmmm

any first year logical reasoning course would say when trying to use an analogy...there should be enough similarities between two situations to warrant the use of the analogy..

in this case, we have some misguided (indeed well intentioned) veers saying that someone in the state of ecstacy going nuts and in advertently SOUNDS as if he isn't doing gurmantar (lets remember that also...in that person's mind, he may be saying WAHEGURU...however in their state...all we hear is hurraaa gurraah) to RAM RAI!!!!!!!!!!!!

hmmm....in one case, someone SOUNDS like they are distorting gurmantar...that person is in meditation, not trying to please an emperor or anyone else...probably has no clue that he isn't saying waheguru fully to our ears...

second case...ram rai...PURPOSELY (KEY word) changed a line of gurbani...to please the emperor...he did so out of SELFISH reasons...what love is there for his father, if he could think the pavitar gurbani written by the jot in his father was wrong?...or did he think it was wrong?..maybe he didn't...but decided to be a punk anyway...whichever way you think about it...at that moment...his OWN ambitions, his own ego came in the way and he certainly put his love for his father aside..

so ...

concluding..

on one hand...something happening as and OUTCOME...or rather an EXPRESSION of LOVE...

on the other hand...something being done that is OUTSIDE the realm of love...

analogy worth making or not?....

you all are smart guys.... i mean...if you lot can come here and tell us all what REAL simiran is....i'm sure you can figure out if this analogy is a good one or complete crap...

[preetsingh]

Waheguru Ji ka khalsa

Waheguru Ji ki fateh

I think this is a good discussion, believe it or not. Really informative.

And you guys have had a lot of different views and alot to say... all of which I think is really interesting.

But I want to know what my Guru Ji has to say about this topic, specifically about simran, in this shabad:

har ka bilovunah bilovo meray bhaee ||

sehaj bilovo jasay tuth na jaaee ||

Can we please do veechar on this bachan by Bhagat Kabeer Ji?

Specifically on the metaphor used in the second line:

SEHAJ BILOVO JASAY TUTH NA JAAEE.

We all understand the literal meaning of this, and have heard it many times in keertan and kathaa. Its quite deep, and the metaphor is of a traditional means of churning butter by hand. If needed, please ask someone more knowledgeable who knows exactly what this process of churning butter was, to completely understand what Bhagat Kabeer Ji is saying here. (That's what I had to do, and I'm still only BEGINNING to understand)

I don't know if it was brought up earlier in this thread; I couldn't find it. I believe its important to do veechar on this, and would really like to hear your thoughts on this. Personally, I think its completely relevant to this discussion.

bhul chuk maaf.

Waheguru Ji ka khalsa

Waheguru Ji ki fateh

101940[/snapback]

Speaking of analogies...

PLEASE?? ANYONE??

Is there no one who is willing to do khoj/veechar on what Bhagat Kabeer Ji has to say?

[Guest A Singh.]

It has already been established in the previous post that there is a strong basis to suggest the Vidhi for Simran is one which goes back to Puratan times. If we examine the particular reference in Sau Sakhi it makes a particular mention of the tongue touching the palate of the mouth on the repetition of "Guru" with the breath.

Using common sense, if the Simran is done loud and is extended then it will sound like "Gurrrrooo". If the seeker is in a state of deep devotion then as the Shabad quoted stated it is quite possible to start laughing. Other than if you find laughing scary (perhaps due to some bad childhood experience with clowns and/or comedy?), there was nothing "disgraceful" with the tape.

If any of the Sangat ever listened to Dr Pritam Singh Ji, they would be aware he was crying in the vast majority of the Keertan he performed. In addition to this it is not difficult to hear the occasional audible expression of very strong Anand during the Simran. And there is no doubt Dr Pritam Singh Ji was a Chardi Kala Gurmukh; not only did he predict his own passing away in a car accident but he also levitated in an Akhand Keertan Samagam shortly before his passing.