degradation of kirtan

[Balait_da_Sher]

In Sangat, Kirtan should be done so it can be understood and the sangat can follow. If that requirement is met i think its all good. Stop worrying and enjoy the kirtan.

Oh and the second link, i dont like the way bhai sahib is doing simran, only the brrrrrrrrrrr's part cos they are totally distracting.

[singh_khalsa]

They went to sachkhand, so why would guru sahib excommunicate others?

[Guest Akaal108]

They went to sachkhand, so why would guru sahib excommunicate others?

101765[/snapback]

I just gave you an historical event(Guru Har Rai excommunicated his son from the panth) upon distorting bani ..because its Maha PAAP.

You can relate this in which ever way you want.

I relate this sakhi an warning ahead from guru ji. you can completely ignore this sakhi by following expectional cases.

Choice is YOURS !

[drawrof]

I had mentioned earlier that I won't be posting again, as I have made my points and stand by them. Apparently this caused more of a rift than creating productive debate about how we can constructively uphold heritage, maryada, and work upto the level of musical and spiritual grandeur as institutionalized by our gurus.

I HAVE REMOVED THE LINK TO THE KIRTAN DONE BY THE BHAI SAHIB WHO WENT INTO ECSTACY (WHICH, BTW, I HAVE NO ILL FEELINGS OR QUESTIONS ABOUT): A spokesperson for that individual wrote this to me on a pm on www.sikhawareness.com

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Gurfateh Singh

I am writing on behalf of the complainant, Baba Ji. that there has been a cause of action of appeal to the defendant who has violated Baba Jis personal information.

The Simran you posted under your disgracing Keertan topic on Sikhsangat.com needs to be removed from the server it has been uploaded to. I have spoken to the appropriate parties and Bibi Ji recorded in the clip is not happy about him being put on the internet neither as an example to be ridiculed over or spoke negatively about. I am sure you can emphasise with this.

Those involved have been speaking to a lawyer, this is technically the intellectual property of the Keertanee and those involved, in fiduciary and other trust relationship there is a common law duty not to disclose such information/material or to use it for personal benefit. The duty not to disclose or misuse confidential info is not restricted to fiduciary relationships either. The remedy for such a case is the involved Baba Ji can claim that there is punitive damages, where the confidant used the info perosnally or passed is on to someone else who used it to the detriment of the first party either or both offending parties can be sued.

I have been informed by the involved parties if the Simran track is not removed from the server in the next 12 hours, then the aforemented legal route will be persued.

Thanks

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My words were harsh but they weren't reflective of my feelings. It wasn't the individual I was criticising.

Let me share a story , btw, this is taken from <banned site filter activated> (I am aware its a namdhari website and the religious persuasion of the author has no bearing on what I am about to share as it is very inspiring).

The sweetness in his voice had an electric effect, which is proved by the following letter, written during 1929/30, when during the summer drought, his song was responsible for the fall of rain. The letter by a novelist Sujan Singh is thus:-

"Bhai Sain Ditta was a 'Hazoori Rababi'. His time for 'Chaunki' (music time) was from three till five in the afternoon. His co-singer was his very talented son Bhai Desa and on the tabla was Bhai Santa. I was eleven years old and had just arrived from Calcutta. I had heard that Bhai Lal and Bhai Moti were previously hazoori ragis. Bhai Moti had died and Bhai Lal was amongst the famous ragis, which I had the privilege to listen to at 'Durgeana Raag Darbar' during Holi. But now he had retired and did not sing any more.

While he was crossing the bridge, the Sangat requested Bhai Sain Ditta to perform keertan Bhai Sain Ditta never used to sing any songs, which were not from Gurbani. Although being a Muslim he was a very devout follower of Sikhism. I do not remember the 'Shabad' nor I had the knowledge of classical music at the time, but this I saw with my own eyes. Elders say that it was Raga 'Malhaar' or 'Megh Malhaar', which Sain Ditta rendered. There was not a cloud to be seen in the sky on his commencement, but slowly clouds started gathering from the side of 'Baba Atal'. The 'Chaunki' was for two hours and after one and half hours it started to drizzle and at the end of 'Chaunki', it was raining in torrents.

When the Sangat complimented and started to thank Bhai Sain Ditta, he only said that, 'Satguru has saved his honour'.

Yours,

Sujan Singh.

P.S. It was a holiday and Bhai Sain Ditta's 'Chaunki' was crowded with people. I was standing behind his 'Jatha' when all the above took place. As the rain showers kept falling, the Sangat kept on showering Bhai Sahib with money. At that time it was allowed to present the ragis with money at the Darbar Sahib.

in closing, I just want to wish everyone a safe and happy holiday

[singh_khalsa]

They went to sachkhand, so why would guru sahib excommunicate others?

101765[/snapback]

I just gave you an historical event(Guru Har Rai excommunicated his son from the panth) upon distorting bani ..because its Maha PAAP.

You can relate this in which ever way you want.

I relate this sakhi an warning ahead from guru ji. you can completely ignore this sakhi by following expectional cases.

Choice is YOURS !

101767[/snapback]

huh? AKJ don't distort gurbani! where did you get that from?

[Sher Khalsa]

I listened to this 2nd part..who are these people?? are they posssessed or something with evil spirit???

i couldn't beleive my ears, this is such a mockery of Guru Maharaj Kirtan...distortation of word- Vahiguroo.....grrrrrrrrrrrrrugrrrrrrrrrrr....what is that man?? this is even worse than bhangra..actually can't compare with bhangra...atleast bhangra have its cultural hertiage!!!!!!!!!

what a load of ******!

101574[/snapback]

BECAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY! Look at bhai randir singh jee, a great gursikh, he did kirtan this way with the sangat doing even more grruuuus then nowadays, this is what happens when in bliss. Randhir Singh ji had darshan of waheguru ji, did waheguru say what you're doing is wrong? NO! and so waheguru was pleased of his gursikhs doing raensbhais, also bhai rama singh went to raesnbhais and didnt object!

Your comment has deeply hurt me.

101757[/snapback]

i highly doubt bhai randhir singh ever said GRUUUUUUUUUUU GRUUUUUUUUUUU GRUUUUUUUUUUUUUU....

they didnt even do simran in their keertan... and they did keertan with pyaar and shaantt... common day AKJ keertan isnt the same as Bhai Randhir Singh Ji's times.. simran in keertan seems to have been started by SDO mohinder singh, who was excommunicated from the paanth....

AKJ keertan is wicked, i love it, but i think a few ppl who distort gurbani and break everyone elses concentration by going BRUAHHHHHHHHHHHHH or GRUUUUUUUUUUU in the middle of keertan ruin it....

and once again everyoen knows raags should be strived for...

[Kharkoo4Life]

Fateh,

I have been reading the various responses regarding the matter of proper vs. improper kirtan for some time now. Before continuing i would firstly like to say I find this discussion very positive. This may seem an odd statement for me to make to many of you but regardless of how much disagreement, difference of opinon or interpretaion we have, we are all engaging in the most fundamental and primary step for a Sikh which is sikhnaa (to learn). And no effective learning is possible without some form of discourse. So putting aside our personal views, the fact that we are here discussing issues regarding the most precious of gifts bestowed to us by waheguru, gurbani, is an encouraging sign. (this is much better than mindless ranter and gupshup about the latest hollywood gossip or which sports team will win the cup this time around)

Now on to the more direct matter of how and how and how not to sing kirtan. Obviously no one will disagree that a sense of respect and humbleness is required to achieve the full benefit of Gurbani Kirtan, for if ones mind is wandering elsewhere then no matter how many shabads, in what tune or raag we sing them in they are of no avail. And this respect is shown not only from inside, by clean, positive thoughts in our mind but also by our physical behaviour in the form of a calm, relaxed posture. ANotherwards sitting down with our minds and body focused on the shabad guru. Granted there are many other religions, places of worships etc. which may often envoke a more physically active form of devotional singing (e.g. church choirs, gospels) it must be remembered that Gurbani Kirtan is quite different from these because kirtan involves the inclusion of our living guru wihtin the activity. Therefore, the utmost level of respect and revernce must be shown at all times.

Secondly, where as other forms of hymns, religious songs (including those of other faiths) are open to differnt renditions and musical styles the Guru in their infinite wisdom realized music has the innate ability to evoke various emoitons and feelings and words (written or spoken) the ability to create new thoughts and understanding. B comibining the two one is able to maximize the penetration and effect of the message (in this case gurbani). That is why regardless of the chaos, traffic, arguing, stresses etc goin on in the world, when one steps into the Gurdwars and attunes their mind to the kirtan they are instantaneously uplifted to a state of bliss and calm.

The Guru's did not want the bani to become a mere repository of random words devoid of any emotion or feeling. That would be akin to making it no different than any other text that preceded it in human history. Instead they created a ETERNAL LIVING GURU. A guru with infinite intellect, humour, compassion, and love. And like any living being there is need for a structred vehicle of delivery to share this knowledge adn emotion with the listener, one in which there is no confusion or doubt as to the message being shared. To maintain this message in its original form for eternity, and to allow it to envoke the same feelings and ability to transform the character of the listerner the Gurus ingeniously created and arranged the Bani according to various Raags.

Each and every word written in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib has a profound meaning behind it, and the case is no diffrent in the mention of the word "Raag" preceding all shabads. The guru wasnt so foollish to include this word repeatedly and to so precisely arrange the shabads according to raag without any underlying meaning or importance behind it. The gurbani is not meant to be altered in any form, shape or fashion. That is a act beyond forgivness even in the court of the Lord. Such was the case Guru Har Rai broke all relation with his own son, Ram Rai, for committing such a fatal mistake.

Given all this, i can sympathize with both sides of the arguments thus far. One the one side, how could any committed, faithful Sikh witness and allow the propagation of SIkhi in altered forms wihtout raisiing his/her voice? We cannot get angry for any devout Sikh for holding such esteem and sharda for his Guru. On the other side, many of us are only begninin to walk on the wonderous path of Sikhi, and are learning day by day, what is right and what is wrong. The respect and honour these individuals show to the Guru is not any less true or sincere. However, as mentioned, it can be difficult to fully comprehend and accurately practice the Sikh Rehat in its perfect form for any person, including the first group. We are all learngin and movign forward in this journey. And how beautiful would this journey be if we walked hand in hand, shoulder to shoulder supporting, encouraging each other along each step. I can guarantee if such were the attitude of EVERY ONE OF US, then each us would automatically start to fully understand and follow each and every hukam of our Guru.

In short i would wish for each of us to try and understand and appreciate each others viewpoint, respect it and judge for ourselves which of the viewpoints (one, both, or neither) conform with the ideology and hukam of our guru.

There are a number of articles with regards to Gurmat Sangeet that i woudl be happy to share with anyone or post if anyone is interested. In the meantime i would encourage everyone to visit :

http://www.gurmatsangeetproject.com

There are many useful articles, background and shabads for all to learn from.

Sincerely,

Fateh

[smartsingh24]

none of you have yet to answer how simran is a gross warping of gurbani. don't even try to use Guru Har Rai as an example. That's completely twisiting the facts. Simran is meant to be spontaneous. Jatha basher.

[Kharkoo4Life]

none of you have yet to answer how simran is a gross warping of gurbani. don't even try to use Guru Har Rai as an example. That's completely twisiting the facts. Simran is meant to be spontaneous. Jatha basher.

101790[/snapback]

The mention of Ram Rai was not meant as a personal attack or support for any form of "bashing" towards any person or group. It was merely stated to stress the Supreme status of our Shabad-Guru, and that knowingly and purposefuly altering the shabad, without acknowledging ones oversight is not a minor mistake. I am not opposed to one singing shabads in non-rag format, particularly for the younger children and those who are just begining to develop a love for gurbani and still learngin it. It helps them gain confidence in kirtan, and learn shabads along the way. For singing His praises is the goal of our life:

kQw kIrqnu rwg nwd Duin iehu binE suAwau ]To utter God's discourse and Kirtan, and to hear the resounding of His melodious music, is the aim of life

It is only through selfless, devotional singing of his praises that we achieve our goal of cleansing our mind:

iehu mnu inrmlu ij hir gux gwvY ]

By singing Lord's glories, this mind becomes immaculate

I am in no way questioning ones sincerity based on the way in which they perform kirtan. Only Waheguru can truly judge who is honest and sincere and who is not. And this goes the same for those who adamantly promote the use of raags in kirtan, yet are silent and even condoning of other practices in their life which may be completely opposed to Sikhi. The guru has warned of this single handed faulty logic as well and reminded us that beautiful, classical singing alone is no better than the other:

ieik gwvih rwg prIAw rwig n BIjeI ]

eik gaavehi raag pareeaa raag n bheejee ||

Some sing according to traditional ragas, but the Lord is not pleased by these ragas alone

There are numerous people who listen and promote kirtan in raags, yet they are equally unware of the essence of gurbani kirtan:

rwg nwd sB ko suxY Sbd suriq smJY ivrloeI]Everybody just listen to "Raag and Naad", but a very rare one understands Shabad-Surti

So with regards to your second comment about Simran being a "spontaneous" occurence, i would have to beg to differ. The Guru has reminded us time and time again throughout gurbani that simran without understanding, i.e. simran merely sung by our lips to show others our level of devotion is not True Simran. Simran implies a state where both the singer is understanding of the meaning and lyrics of the shabad and is able to convey the message to the listner as well so that he too can understand and benefit fromt he singing. Kirtan is not some sort of magical potion which by listenin alone one can somehow transform themselves. It is only by the understanding and incorporation of the MEANING of the kirtan does the kirtan have any effect on our lives. And in such a case you can decide for yourself, which is more helpful to the audience in changing their personality and thinking: uttering of vahguru in a loud, repetitive almost robotic manner or someone recitring the gurbani in a slow, shaant manner interspersed with moments where the singer takes time to explain/summarize the message of teh shabad to the sangat? Again, i am not 'bashing' anyone for saying waheguru during kirtan, if done properly it can be a wonderful addition to the shabad and help ease the mind and focus ones attention on waheguru himself. The guru himself is clear in telling us that gurbani for any personal, social, or status gain is strictly wrong as is wrong the continued repetition of it wihtout any understanding and incorporation of the shabad into our lives:

iDRgu iqnw kw jIivAw ij iliK iliK vycih nwau ]Cursed are the lives of those who read and write the Lord's Name to sell it.

KyqI ijn kI aujVY KlvwVy ikAw Qwau ] ||Their crop is devastated - what harvest will they have?

scY srmY bwhry AgY lhih n dwid ]Lacking truth and humility, they shall not be appreciated in the world hereafter.

Akil eyh n AwKIAY Akil gvweIAY bwid ]Wisdom which leads to arguments is not called wisdom.

AklI swihbu syvIAY AklI pweIAY mwnu ]Wisdom leads us to serve our Lord and Master; through wisdom, honor is obtained.

AklI piV@ kY buJIAY AklI kIcY dwnu ]One should read (Baanee) with intelligence, and then understand its real essence (i.e., assimilate it). Also, one should use intelligence in giving charity.

nwnku AwKY rwhu eyhu hoir glW sYqwnu ]1]Says Nanak, this is the Path; other things lead to Satan.

As stated in the shabad above out of the knowledge attained via this Kirtan which we engage in we should be able to discuss and share our views in a respectful open manner, wihtout fingerpointing or criticizing the others for unfairly 'bashing" them. Arguments and accusatory labeling is not the sign of the wisdom Guru Ji is trying to infuse in us. And also you are quick to lable one as a 'jatha basher', but i ask which "jatha" is it that you speak of? Are we not all part of the same, ONE jatha that Guru Nanak created or have u decided to form some special, elite jatha within it and claim superiority or seperate status from the rest? We are all sons of Guru Gobind Singh, and hence brothers, so let us be able to discuss whatever matter it is without heated arguments and accusations.

It is when we reach this avustha, or state of sehaj, that we will realize that the best kind of kirtan is the one mentioned in Gurbani itself:

hir kIrqn mih aUqm Dunw ]Singing of the God's praises is the best amongst melodies

I apologize if anyone deems my words hurtful or disrespectful but i felt it necessary to provide further basis for my views and respond to any misunderstanding that may have arisen out of it. I hope Waheguru blesses us all with understanding and tolerance towards one another.

Fateh

[Jaspaul Singh]

WOW ..

akaal108 .. u should REALLY watch what your saying bro .. HONESTLY.. you are in a way attacking gurmukhs that dont do kirtan in raag (in your sense which is the ONLY right way) .. your twisting it around so that it doesnt look like your attacking personally but when someone gave you examples of two gurmukhs ... you countered and said show me any gurmukhs before guru granth sahib ji was given gaddi.. basically saying those gursikhs are wrong .. wow..

buddy .. you need to calm down ..

bhul chuk maph!