degradation of kirtan

[smartsingh24]

i have nothing against anything u said. In fact, i'm inclined to agree with most of the things u said, because it seems that you have the proper knowledge. But in regards to simran, it is just another way of finding a higher understanding. My comments were for people who have a certain reputation with dealing in these posts......

[Jaspaul Singh]

shamsher veerji .. thank u for ur answers to my post.. i will try my best to clarify myself where needed..

We don't have to? Our Gurus specifically wrote down the raag in which their gurbani is supposed to be sung and you say we don't have to. Using your argument I could in an absurd way argue that even though the Gurus write about nam simran we don't have to do it. This is a non-valid argument as the raags are clearly mentioned and hence have the status of specific hukam regarding the performance of raag.

What i meant was ... yes gurbani is written in raag ... a specific raag ... but guru ji did NOT say ok ... this is raag ... you MUST sing this shabad in THIS raag. And of course its important though ... of course it is ... do raag kirtan ... study raag ... BUT saying other forms of kirtan is wrong ... well brother ... there YOU are wrong...

This argument of times changing is exactly the one used by mone to justify their cutting their hair. This argument has no basis in Sikhi whatsoever. The Raag system has not changed in its principles hence there is no reason to depart from it. New instruments have indeed emerged, some suited for classical hindustani sangeet others don't. The criteria for acceptance is the abality to imitate the modulations of the voice (different alamkars etc..) as well as the ability to reproduce the 1/4 tones of the classical Indian system. European music is limited to the 1/2 tones and a lot of its instruments are too limited in range to enter the realm of acceptance in classical Indian music (used in shabad kirtan). The violin and the guitar are exceptions whereas ALL keyboard instrulents by their very nature are utterly unsuitable.

Regarding the "times are changing argument" Guru Gobind Singh was once confronted by someone who said that times have changed and that there was no need of keeping kesh etc... Guru Gobind Singh's response was:

"The times have NOT changed. The sun is still the same, the moon is still the same, the stars are still the same". Suraj Prakash Granth also quoted in Giani Ishar Singh Nara's Zafarnama te Safarnama.

As Sikhi does not accept th enotion of linear time and as Guru's hukam has primacy over changes in fashion this arugment is equally non valid.

First and formost ji ... i am NOT against raag style kirtan ji ... actually i am learning raag and know a few shabads in raag ... but im just trying to put out the fact is that raag is NOT THE ONLY type of kirtan a sikh must do !!!

What i meant in time changing was that ... ok come on ... we are in kaljug ... there are 4 jugs ... of course the time is changing ... !!! Kaljug is only going to get worst ... worst so we can try our best to over power it ...

... i dont wana go off topic so let me try to explain myself... like i said ... raag SHOULD be studied by everyone and tried to be done by everyone... is what i believe ! But saying it is only way and you CANT do any other forms is totally wrong...

How could a true Gursikh indulge in unautorised inovation? It's like saying that trimming your beard is ok as long as you love Maharaj! non valid statement.

Here i would love for you to comment on such gurmukhs such as bhai sahib randheer singh ji ... if you still stick by your remark ... may guru ji give you true gyaan !

If not, please abstain from manmat by indulging in desecrating shabad kirtan.Maharaj deserves the best not less!!!

Of course guru ji deserves the best... bro you saying this, is like a slap in many gurmukhs face dat do kirtan other than raag and also jap gurmantr in what you guys say 'gruuuu', and do hardcore simran as we saw in some puratan kirtanee files..

... i am only defending those gurmukhs your utterly r saying all this to ... who am i to speak ... afterall your much more wiser than me ... :doh:

... but please dont make such future remarks again... please think about what your saying...

bhul chuk maph!

[Jaspaul Singh]

No where in guru granth sahib, or any hukam, or any rehitnama it says we HAVE to sing that shabad in raag.

Thats where i am going to have to disagree...

Guru Gobind Singh Ji said we must do keertan in raags, not only raags but raags in raags...

listen to Bhai Balbir Ssingh keertan he talks about it in that in his bir ras dasam bani keertan...

101647[/snapback]

i dont know about this singh ...

i dont believe guru ji would say himself dat u MUST do this kirtan in THIS raag ... afterall guru jis dasam bani is not all in raag...

... i wouldnt know anymore to comment on this ... but lets relate this idea to gurmukhs like i keep posting in my answers... please comment on bhai sahib bhai randheer singh ji ... and i read somewhere where one said he didnt do simran in his kritan ... let me correct that... HE DOES IT ... ask any premi gursikh who had darshan of bhai sahib ji ... (bhai sahib jeevan singh, etx...)...

... well ya ... just comment on that...

bhul chuk maph

[Guest Akaal108]

WOW ..

akaal108 .. u should REALLY watch what your saying bro .. HONESTLY.. you are in a way attacking gurmukhs that dont do kirtan in raag (in your sense which is the ONLY right way) .. your twisting it around so that it doesnt look like your attacking personally but when someone gave you examples of two gurmukhs ... you countered and said show me any gurmukhs before guru granth sahib ji was given gaddi.. basically saying those gursikhs are wrong .. wow..

buddy .. you need to calm down ..

bhul chuk maph!

101802[/snapback]

I don't have a problem with people who can't sing in raags because I understand - not anyone can sing in raags..needs loads of practise but I do have a problem with people completely distoring word - Vahiguroo (Sacred GURMANTAR) in front of sangat and infront of GURU Maharaj Darbar in Kirtan.

BE IT IF IT'S BHAI SAHIB/SANT/BABA/BHRAMGYANI/108 !!!!!

This is not NINDIYA..THIS IS A FACT/TRUTH.

Truth is Truth. Nindiya is Nindiya.

Anyway this is my last post on this topic...reaction was obvious as it was predicted...usually on this forum people are fan of the kirtan (2nd file drawof provided - screaming/yelling/distortation of word GURMANTAR)..obviously it hurts !!! No doubt....because it challenges one views and their choices.

We are not here to convince others and win this debate..we are here to put - facts, enrich sikh musical hertiage !!!!!!!

Truth always hurts because no one wants to hear the truth...person who is willing to spread truth they get shut off by LAME CHEAP LAW SUITS THREATS !!!!!!!!!!

WHAT A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS !!!!!!!!

I am done with this whole fiasco.

Gurfateh

[Jaspaul Singh]

WOW ..

akaal108 .. u should REALLY watch what your saying bro .. HONESTLY.. you are in a way attacking gurmukhs that dont do kirtan in raag (in your sense which is the ONLY right way) .. your twisting it around so that it doesnt look like your attacking personally but when someone gave you examples of two gurmukhs ... you countered and said show me any gurmukhs before guru granth sahib ji was given gaddi.. basically saying those gursikhs are wrong .. wow..

buddy .. you need to calm down ..

bhul chuk maph!

101802[/snapback]

I don't have a problem with people who can't sing in raags because I understand - not anyone can sung in raags..needs loads of practise but I do have a problem with people completely distoring word - Vahiguroo (Sacred GURMANTAR) in front of sangat and infront of GURU Maharaj Darbar in Kirtan.

BE IT IF IT'S BHAI SAHIB/SANT/BABA/BHRAMGYANI/108 !!!!!

This is not NINDIYA..THIS IS A FACT/TRUTH.

Truth is Truth. Nindiya is Nindiya.

Anyway this is my last post on this topic...reaction was obvious as it was predicted...usually on this forum people are fan of the kirtan (2nd file drawof provided - screaming/yelling/distortation of word GURMANTAR)..obviously it hurts !!! No doubt....because it challenges one views and their choices.

We are not here to convince others and win this debate..we are here to put - facts, enrich sikh musical hertiage !!!!!!!

Truth always hurts because no one wants to hear the truth...person who is willing to spread truth they get shut off by LAME CHEAP LAW SUITS THREATS !!!!!!!!!!

WHAT A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS !!!!!!!!

I am done with this whole fiasco.

Gurfateh

101811[/snapback]

Im really glad you have that much knowledge of putting down any other "BHAI SAHIB/SANT/BABA/BHRAMGYANI/108 !!!!!" ... im so surprised how much gyaan you know that these guys dont know about bani ... and what you say that they are doing 'wrong' in your eyes is actually wrong.

I guess you know more than them to actually judge on the fact how they do kirtan and live their gursikhi life...

... i can name NUMEROUS gursikhs who do gurmantr jap ... look at old puraatan tracks of dhulla ji, bhai sahib jeevan singh ji, etx ... and by what you said, you know more than them ??? Are you saying how they do kirtan in sirman is wrong ???

... dont get me wrong if that is not what you meant im sorry i take it back ... but just want to clarify soething... and please dont go around my question in attempt to answer it ... just answer it directly...

[japmans]

point being... he can say that....cuz he knows any "bhai sahib/sant/108/so forth" won't say anything.. a grumukh will do whatever brings him closer to God... and won't give two freaking tutts about what us losers hafta say about it...

[Guest Akaal108]

This is funny..again my post is being ignored..

do you guys have any thing on say on- i ll use caps- DISTORTATION OF GURBANI/MANTAR- VAHIGUROO AS brahhhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrhhhhhhhh/grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuuuuu.

If you guys do then please go ahead..otherwise don't waste my time !

[japmans]

this is funny.... there's been so many posts, but you want yours to be focussed on...

[japmans]

not to mention the fact that it's been touched on so many times... there AER other posters... and other posts... go read up singh ji, if you feel your post hasn't been touched on...many people have talkd about "distortion of vaheguru"..... dunno why you make it seem like no one else has..

[Jaspaul Singh]

This is funny..again my post is being ignored..

do you guys have any thing on say on- i ll use caps- DISTORTATION OF GURBANI/MANTAR- VAHIGUROO AS brahhhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrhhhhhhhh/grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrruuuuuuuuuuuuu.

If you guys do then please go ahead..otherwise don't waste my time !

101815[/snapback]

Ive heard dhulla ji and bhai sahid jeevan singh ji and OTHERs who do dat :doh: ... nothing wrong in dat ... do u see anything wrong wit it ??? Again it comes back to the same question :e: ... and no we r not overlooking what you wrote...