What do you guys think ..

[niraguniaarae]

waheguroo ji ka khalsa,

waheguroo ji ki fatehh

what do you guys think of defibrillators ? For those that dont know .. its the electrical shock unit that ambulances carry and they have it at hospitals, and they use it when a person goes into shock or has no pulse (cpr) ..

.. the question is that in order to use that they must shave off the area on the chest before the use it because when they use it it can burn your hair on the chest and it can do further damage etx..

so what do you guys think ? Is this ok ? Like it is a life and death situation.. int his case would that be ok ?

109365[/snapback]

I've highlighted the part of your message that I'm referring to; if the subject is not conscious then will they really have a choice in that situation?

For example if someone who is a Sikh is in a life threatening situation, will the people trying to help consider what the person may want or will they go straight into trying to save the persons life? If the first aider is a Sikh or knows about Sikhi then they may be aware of how important hair is for a Sikh, but if they are not aware, then will the subject really have a choice?

[jss]

the last person who posted is correct...

having experience in a first aid setting...if someone is unconscious, we are supposed to tak it as implied consent...unless the person has some document on their body saying that they refuse treatment by defib.....

[Jaspaul Singh]

Thank you for your replies guys..

was just curious on others views..

if something happened to me and i was in shock and someone used this device on me hence shaving part of my chest.. i wouldnt mind cuz they are basically saving my life .. that life which i can try to further my sikhi .. that life that i can hopefully help and assist others to expand their sikhi.. i think there is nothing wrong wit it if its basic purpose is to save a persons life ..

[Gurpreet Singh]

Well back in the days when Sikhs were being killed by the mughals...some were told by their family members to cut their hair...give up their guru but they didn't....i look at this the same way...my GURU.... if he's done so much grace by given me amrit which gives me the chance to get closer to him...im sure he's gonna pull me thru a life and death situation if it was really in my destiny to live without me having to get my chest shaved and some equipment invented in 1932 to give me life.....i guess we all have different ways at looking at this....maybe there's no right or wrong....

[truthseeker]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!

I think that in a situation like this Guru ji would not consider u a bad person.. or bad Sikh becuase u had ur chest shaved. ( but then again.. who are we to decide how he would 'feel' about it

But if u really thinkg about it... no matter what... if u are supposed to live then u will. It is his hukam that u live or die. So why would u take the chance and go against ur prinicipals anyways. If u are supposed to die at that moment... no machine is going to keep u alive, and then again if u are to live.. then u will no matter if u use it or not.

Bhull chuk maaf

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!

[japmans]

i have a hard time aligning this with torutre and oppression from the mughals

but yeah, we all will have different opinions on this...

[Gupt daasan daas]

well the only reason in my opinion, even though this wud be a very very hard decion to make if faced in real life, but rading bout sant kartaar singh je and knowing that one wud die before commit a bujjar kureight, well, i guess in my opinion we shudnt cutour kesh

fasting is not a bujjar kureight:)

to commit a bujjar kureight one wud rather give there head, even if the purpose is to save thre life

but like i said, that wudnt b an easy decion to make, and i guess best thing to do wud be find some really chardi kala singhs and ask them, like bhagath je

but looking at sant jes decision, and its a bujjar kureight i guess we

shudnt

bhula chuka maf

[Gurpreet Singh]

regarding the mughal times....welll all those singhs had to do was remove their hair and they would be able to live..they couldve removed their hair and said ohh i will do this now and later i can follow my sikhi when there's no threat to my life..

[jss]

gurpreet,

your analogy isn't logically consistent...

for any analogy to work...it has to be similar enough that we can draw similar conclusions...

the mugal analogy to the defib situation is tototally devoid of logic...for ONE reason..

during the mugal times..the singh would be CONSCIOUS...he would be able to to THINK, SPEAK, ACT for himself..

somone needing a defib...is NOT CONSCIOUS... CANNOT think, CANNOT speak, CANNOT act...

therefore, if he has his hair shaved for the purpose of using the machine...there is no harm done...all he has to do is appear in front of panj piyaraay

also talked to a singh who does seva in panj during amrit sanchars...

he said that removing hair for surgeries or similar health related circumstances is allowed in extreme circumstances , but the person still has to appear in front of panj piyaraay and explain the situation and then follow the hukam of the panj..

he said the difference b/w health and mugal times...is that THREAT... and the attack on Identity...

someone facing a doctor wanting to shave an area for surgery isn't facing someone who wants to shave the hair to take the person's identity away..the doctor isn't trying to make you a patit...the doctor isn't wanting to attack the core principles of sikhi...he is only doing what he knows how to help make you better...

whereas..the mugal times...why were they adamant to cutting the hair of singhs???

they wanted to attack sikhi at it's roots..they wanted to take the person's identity away..they wanted to show that sikhs are NOT courageous, not brave, not worthy of keeping the kesh and turban..

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!!!!

let;'s make this situation more complicated...just to get you guys to think outside of the box for a brief moment

so...it's 1984...a week before the attack on harmandir sahib...you are an amritdhari singh/singhni... you are usually very strong, great at gatka, naam abhiyaasi, doing tonnes of seva...you would be a great asset for the singhs defending darbar sahib...

yet...you fall ill...a simple invasive procedure would cure you...yet without it..you'd die....having the surgery would allow you to be well enough to fight for your quom...to defend SIKHI...defend the symbols of sikhi...defend the identity of sikhs..to defend the sacred akal takt, to defend justice, truth, honour...

not having the surgery, you'd die in two days (that's before the attack occurs..just incase y'all didn't get the math there ...having done nothing for your quom...having not defended sikhi, having not stood up for your principles against those who wish to eradicate those principles...cuz remembe the doctor is trying to do none of those things..so saying no to the doctor isn't proving anything..

what would ya do??

[Gurpreet Singh]

I would die then .......Guruji always Defends his Sikhs..and If its my destiny to die its gonna happen whether u use the defib or not .....anyways bro..its just my opinion... honestly it wasn't my intention to force my opinion onto anyone.... my logic wasn't made to change anyones views...regardless if my logic is relevant or not..i know im not a scholar lol...i just put the things how i look at it.... its just that i wouldn't want it be done to me... :doh: