Hazoor Sahib

[Gupt daasan daas]

raam rheem puraan kuraan anek kahin MATH EK NA MANYOO

now if balbir je u are saying "where does it say blow off devthai" if u mean where does it say they are false, dont worship them etc., gurbanee has many places where this is said

however

the POWER behind all these devthai, when dropathee was saved etc., was AKAAL PURKH

there wasone power, is, and will be

tthere is no point in worshipping the devtha

there was a power behind there good deeds

there was akaal purkh

akal purkh is supreme and the most powerful

but jus to clarify MYSELF

vaheguru is not OURS and the SIKHS alone

vaheguru is the one who is the most merciful and love giving

he will not send his child to hell simply for not being sikh

one on the last day will be judged on there actions, not if they wrre hindu, muslim, etc.

if u have done GOOD actions, then u will be accepted by guru je

sikhi is more universal than we think

im only SORT of begginin to see this by readin a little bit mor ebanee by w/e kirpa guur je does

so im defintley not sayin by worshipin raam and by sayin his name with each breath u will go to hell

but if u kno that there is a entity that is formless, and that it was that entity, and not raam chander himself, that did the good, then there is no point in worshipin raam

we shud worship the power behind everything, VAHEGURU

bhula chuka maf

[Balbir Singh]

Satsriakal to all and cavanagh Ji!

It is pity that people fall in rituals rejecting others way of worship.

Sorry to observe that today many Sikhs are following the ritual of rejecting and criticizing others.

Naturally oil lamps have nothing to do with true Simran.

Only those hang on oil lamps who are not aware of true Simran. It does not matter if they use it or reject it.

In my view, it is high time to recognize the bad forces which are injecting such teachings in the youth to divert them to false directions.

Such teachers and preachers try to hide their ignorance this way.

I wish all a great successful and truthful life following God's Hukam.

Balbir Singh

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

"Naturally oil lamps have nothing to do with true Simran.

Only those hang on oil lamps who are not aware of true Simran. It does not matter if they use it or reject it."

And you are arguing in favor of aarti because...?

"I wish all a great successful and truthful life following God's Hukam."

Yeah...Sikh is also told to follow the Panth's hukam...which is the Panthic Rehat Maryada...which states that oil lamps and all this aarti stuff is not Gurmat.

Sincerely:

That Hateful Guy Who Hates Everything and Everyone

[Balbir Singh]

Satsriakal to all and ms514 Ji!

Hopefully you have understood it.

It is the same with Kakaars. Kakaars have nothing to do with true Simran.

Yes, Aartee is wonderful. The Gurus sang it whole life also when Thaal, Deevaas and other materials were not available.

Millions of Sikhs do Aartee today also with or without Deevaas. Utilize a great chance to visit Hazoor Sahib and Patna Sahib.

You have mentioned Panthic Maryada.

Panthic Maryada is not from the Gurus. There are many points in Panthic Maryada which the Gurus never suggested.

Rather, those are against Gurmat and added in the list by voting.

Just like you are canvassing to vote against Aartee, Deevaas, Thaal, Flowers and Ghee.

It is up to an individual what he adopts, The Gurmat or something else.

Balbir Singh

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

balbir in yur home u use oil lamps or electricity.?

also no one giving hindus any cerificate or authority,but they do their thing

and we do our thing.if we want progress n share sikhi with the world,we need cut the crap out ,n go fer the real substance.enough is enough of rituals ,flower power peripheral niceties.its only distracting us.it blocks us from realising n feeling the REAL POTENT POWER OF SIKHI.no more trying justify a load of nonsense .we the next generation.we want continue mistakes of the previous generation which has curbed,slowed,weakened the progress of sikhi.come on ,my brother,we want move forward.

share personal stuff with u.as long as i meself was stuck in this worship n dont question existing stuff thingy,i was confused and weak.all of it in the name of 60s n 70s n 80s n 90s supposed saints n taksals,acting like the unquestioned papal authority.their word the sacred unchallenged truth.only made me weak,n dependant.but GURUJI'S grace,tore off that paper tiger n lo n behold started xperiencing the real potential power of sikhi and naam.and wow its ving effect on everyone around in terrific way.honest to u.cutting this ritualistic crap n trap.focussing on amritvela stuff .and me home is becoming like a temple of God.black,white ,hindus,sikhs,they all come and start loving GURUJI,start reading GURU GRANTH SAHIB online,start reading vaak from harmandir sahib every morning,start chanting waheguru,start going to gurudwara,start amritvela.this is wat we shuld focus on,not the oldys irrelevant,misguided crap n trap.

i share this with sincerity n love

150910[/snapback]

i agree man, india has some weird pakhand-waaji going on with sikhs....you have to light this before this, you have to wave this jot over that this many times, then you have to have a person stand on one leg and do thsi many jaap sahibs, then you have two do a havan, not teh hindu one but a air purifier one, man what kind of pakhand is this? man if you want to be hindu, just be hindu, it's ok, it's ok to be hindu. if you want to be sikh, don't get into all this pakhand, baani is guru, read it, meditate on it, live it. stop wasting your lives on all this ritualism....man to practice the tyep of sikhi you guyz are talking about we all need a special handbook know all the ritualistic rules of how many aartis to do, how many havans how many this that, God knows what...whew, thank God i live far far away from all that stuff.

i read in the paper that there are 6 million punjabis living in foreign countries. i'm assuming at least 60% or more are sikhs and it is a great thing. sikhs in teh west are more aware of sikhi cause they are not bound by all the ritualistic culture of india. everything is a ritual in india, thousands of years of hinduism is hard to overcome, you can't teach an old dog new tricks...

no wonder sikh girls become muslims, if i was ignorant of sikhi and heard all this pakhandi stuff i would have run to the nearest mosque a long time ago...

[SSM]

no u wudnt if u had half brain cell- ppl have their own way of showing pyaar and i aint dissing it- ok we have jot now and we ad jot then.

BUT WHERE did the idea of keeping jot on for the whole time come up.

From what I know, jot was kept till the end even daytime.

Am I wrong or right?

If it was kept on at day time then why?

The idea of keeping jot on the whole time couldnt have crept in but waould have been round since Guru Ji?

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

own way of showing pyaar, ok hindus had their own way of showing pyaar too at the ganga river so why would guru sahib tell them it was wrong? ritualism maybe? all rituals are done with pyaar. muslims sacrifice animals to god with pyaar also, hindus climb up a thousand foot mountain to have darshan of vaishno devi, that is pyaar too. there is pyaar because of our manmat and there is the truth, gurmat. we know which pyaar is true.

peace.

[SSM]

sri Hemkunt Sahib?

btw hindus were showing pyar to ancestors at ganges river so thats not relevant.

hindus performing rituals with no idea, thats wrong, but what if we r asking the purpose of something and then performing it cos of that reason if we agree, then?

then ?

sacrifice of animals is different.

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Hopefully you have understood it.

"It is the same with Kakaars. Kakaars have nothing to do with true Simran."

Without Kakkars, is one a Sikh?

The following five K's are the mark of Sikhi.These five can never be parted from the body. Kara, Kirpan, Kashera, Kangha, recognise these as four of them.The fifth is Kesh, without which the other four are useless. There are also four H's which must be avoided. Understand this without any doubt, no lies have been told. Hukka, taking tobacco (including any other type of intoxicants). Hajamat, removing of hair. Halalo, eating meat. Haram, adultery (sexual relationships outside of marriage). These are the four H's. Dyeing of beards (including any other body hair), and the wearing of mehndi (including other types of make up) are strictly forbidden. (Sri Dasam Granth)

Rehat has plenty to do with Gurmat. There is a reason why when one parts with the Kakkars, they are liable for a fine/punishment. This is the Guru's way and to get to the "Simran" you keep referring to, the Rehat is essential.

"Yes, Aartee is wonderful. The Gurus sang it whole life also when Thaal, Deevaas and other materials were not available."

Right...cause the Aarti sung in Kirtan Sohila is all about lacking the plate and deevas. It has nothing to do with the fact that the entire universe in a living breathing Aarti. As the motions of the planets and stars wave around each other and as the entire world flowers for the Almighty. Rather than actually remembering that WE and the WORLD/UNIVERSE is the Aarti as Guru Sahib is telling, waving a cheap steel plate with flowers and a lamp is somehow comprable to that. The biggest respect and honor that a Sikh can bestow on himself/herself is to actually READ Gurbani and follow it. Gurbani talks of the real Aarti so that one can contemplate the Almighty and be blessed with true understanding that whatever ritual that one performs to try to honor the Almighty is nothing compared to the rememberance of the Almighty. The Vaars of Bhai Gurdas Sahib specify that in this age, these rituals will avail to nothing and that only devoted rememberance to the Almighty will grant liberation. So if you see fit to keep doing Parchar of Tikkas and Aarti and whether Sikhs should even read Gurbani, go ahead. You are obviously much more intelligent and a Gyani than Bhai Gurdas Sahib.

"Millions of Sikhs do Aartee today also with or without Deevaas. Utilize a great chance to visit Hazoor Sahib and Patna Sahib."

True Aarti=remembering of the Almighty. On one hand, you state that Aarti has nothing to do with "Simran" and on the other hand, Sikhs should do it...lack of focus. First, learn to make a clear point. True Aarti is to look around andto understand that everything is occuring in the Hukam of the Almighty. Every event, every movement is the Almighty's Aarti. The inanimate and the animate are performing the Almighty's play continuously. THAT is the true Aarti. But then again, maybe I should go throw water towards the sun because my ancestors may be warm and thirsty. Maybe I should stand naked on one leg in the hot sun to show my love. Oh wait...what does Gurbani say about these things...?

"You have mentioned Panthic Maryada.

Panthic Maryada is not from the Gurus. There are many points in Panthic Maryada which the Gurus never suggested.

Rather, those are against Gurmat and added in the list by voting.

Just like you are canvassing to vote against Aartee, Deevaas, Thaal, Flowers and Ghee.

It is up to an individual what he adopts, The Gurmat or something else."

Uh...no. The Panth is invested the authority of the Guruship. Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself was bestowed Amrit from the Panj Pyare, thus making the official mark that the Khalsa Panth had the authoratative power to make certain changes. A common example of that is the Ardaas, which can be modified as necessary. In the same way, the Panth got together, contemplated all the olden Maryadas and out of it, compiled the Panthic Rehat Maryada. This right was given to them by the Guru. When one kneels in front of the Panj Pyare, you are kneeling to the Guru. It is with the same authority that the Panthic Rehat Maryada has been adopted. Guru Sahib stated speciically that the Khalsa was his Roop, his image. So if the Khalsa sees fit to pass a Maryada stating explicitly that deevas and this form of worship is forbidden, a Sikh does not dare to protest otherwise.

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

sri Hemkunt Sahib?

btw hindus were showing pyar to ancestors at ganges river so thats not relevant.

hindus performing rituals with no idea, thats wrong, but what if we r asking the purpose of something and then performing it cos of that reason if we agree, then?

then ?

sacrifice of animals is different.

151000[/snapback]

what about sri hemkunt sahib, do sikhs have to make a pilgrimage there to be proper sikhs now? is it like the required hajj for muslims?

you can't assume hindus do their rituals with no idea. you can't do rituals yourself like aarti and all these other stuff mentioned and say hindus have no idea when they do it. what's wrong with showing respect to their ancestors? sikhs have pictures of gurus that they put flowers around. if a picture of a guy people think is guru nanak dev ji is pyaar, then why not throwing river water in the sky for your relatives?

my point is not to attack you personally. i just want to point out how much ritualism is in our faith; and we mock these things in shabads all the time, it is so hypocritical. you'd be surprised at how this kind of is making many sikhs leave sikhi cause it makes sikhi look like some hypocritical religion hiding its hindu roots. you can't call one religions actions ritualism and your rituals as pyaar.

anyways, i don't want to argue anymore cause it is just gonna lead to hankaar in us. in the end, truth always prevails, and the truth is in gurbani, not in some river, some aarti, some picture, some idol, some whateva......

peace.

god bless.