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Sat Sri Akal:

The following five K's are the mark of Sikhi.These five can never be parted from the body. Kara, Kirpan, Kashera, Kangha, recognise these as four of them.The fifth is Kesh, without which the other four are useless. There are also four H's which must be avoided. Understand this without any doubt, no lies have been told. Hukka, taking tobacco (including any other type of intoxicants). Hajamat, removing of hair. Halalo, eating meat. Haram, adultery (sexual relationships outside of marriage). These are the four H's. Dyeing of beards (including any other body hair), and the wearing of mehndi (including other types of make up) are strictly forbidden. (Sri Dasam Granth)

(Gurmukhi version is at: http://www.damdamitaksal.com/lit_basicsfivek.htm ).

I believe that the words speak for themselves.

Thanks for the link, dude.

Just to quote the thing about the kirpan:

"Those who never depart his/her arms, they are the Khalsa with excellent rehats."

(Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh ji, p.148)

Okay, I think there's a difference between "never" and "never". Assuming that a Khalsa in 17th century India, where he nor she was ever truly safe (we were commanding guerilla-type warfare at the time) was the environment in which they were living is sightly different from today. It was designed as a mode of security and a form of honourable living. But removing a kirpan temporarily whilst in the sky - where the safety and peace of mind of every passenger is supposed to be the number one priority (there are security personnel travelling in disguise on flights) - I'm sure that Guru-ji would know that there would be nothing wrong with this. I don't think that international commercial airliners were even a dream 300 years ago, were they? grin.gif

Theres a simple procedure i follow:

1. Ardaas (ask for ability to remain steadfast and shastardhari)

2. 5 Chaupai Saahibs (for protection)

3. 5 Japji Sahibs (ability to remain Guroo Saahibs sevak)

4. Ardaas (for protection and ability to be Guroo Saahibs sevak and for the Bani recited)

5. Final Chaupai Saahib as I walk through metal dectectors.

Hm. For a God that is supposed to have no correlation to human interested linked with fear and emnity and is One with everything including us (ref Mool Mantra, of course), there's an awful lot of 'asking' and a willingness to be 'protected' going on, isn't there? grin.gif

Since recieving Amrit I have been blessed with the ability to board an aircraft without having to remove my kakaar.

Yeah. What page of the Dassam Granth was that line on again...? :mellow:

Like I said, its about shardaa and having faith that Maharaj will take care of everything....

wjkkwjkp!

Yeah. I have "faith that Maharaj will take care of everything", and that he has given me a mind to allow me to ensure that this is precisely what happens :TH:

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wjkkwjkp!

I think it goes on Shardaa...

I think most (if not all) those who have posted so far agree that taking off your kakaar is acceptable when boarding a plane.

Im not going to make a judgement as some of my close family/friends have the same views.

However, what i will say is that after 5 years of an amritdhari lifestyle and after a number of flights NOT ONCE have i had to remove my kakaar. Call it luck, plain ignorance or Maharaj's Kirpa or whatever, but facts are facts.

Theres a simple procedure i follow:

1. Ardaas (ask for ability to remain steadfast and shastardhari)

2. 5 Chaupai Saahibs (for protection)

3. 5 Japji Sahibs (ability to remain Guroo Saahibs sevak)

4. Ardaas (for protection and ability to be Guroo Saahibs sevak and for the Bani recited)

5. Final Chaupai Saahib as I walk through metal dectectors.

Since recieving Amrit I have been blessed with the ability to board an aircraft without having to remove my kakaar.

Like I said, its about shardaa and having faith that Maharaj will take care of everything....

wjkkwjkp!

Taksali singh I dont know how you are able to sneak pass those metal detectors..

what kinda Kirpan do you wear..

most of the times what happens is that when the security person sees a person with turban they also do one round of search and running that hand held metal detector over you..

it was never possible for me to get past that...

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Taksali singh I dont know how you are able to sneak pass those metal detectors...

what kinda Kirpan do you wear..

Rubber kirpan, perhaps? But isn't that pretty much useless? :@

most of the times what happens is that when the security person sees a person with turban they also do one round of search and running that hand held metal detector over you..

it was never possible for me to get past that...

Man, I gotta remove my belt, my kara, my watch, my keys and my wallet. I don't mind removing my kara. It's not like my actions have suddenly become ignoble or something.

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Taksali singh I dont know how you are able to sneak pass those metal detectors...

what kinda Kirpan do you wear..

Rubber kirpan, perhaps? But isn't that pretty much useless? :@

most of the times what happens is that when the security person sees a person with turban they also do one round of search and running that hand held metal detector over you..

it was never possible for me to get past that...

Man, I gotta remove my belt, my kara, my watch, my keys and my wallet. I don't mind removing my kara. It's not like my actions have suddenly become ignoble or something.

i know at smaller regional airfields and strips that it would not pose much of a concern for the officials, as it's not usually boarding with 100+ people...

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Sat Sri Akal:

"Okay, I think there's a difference between "never" and "never". Assuming that a Khalsa in 17th century India, where he nor she was ever truly safe (we were commanding guerilla-type warfare at the time) was the environment in which they were living is sightly different from today. It was designed as a mode of security and a form of honourable living. But removing a kirpan temporarily whilst in the sky - where the safety and peace of mind of every passenger is supposed to be the number one priority (there are security personnel travelling in disguise on flights) - I'm sure that Guru-ji would know that there would be nothing wrong with this. I don't think that international commercial airliners were even a dream 300 years ago, were they?"

First of all, if one watches the news, it is becoming very apparent that there is no safe place for a Sikh. From the hate crimes to outright genocide, if someone here believes that the world is somehow a safe haven for Sikhs, they are kidding themselves. And if someone here thinks that the duty of the Khalsa is no longer needed, then you have only to look at Darfur, Sudan and other major world genocides to realize that the Khalsa is just as needed as today. Regardless of what we can rationalize and do to make our minds at ease, it is a violation of Rehat, but the Sikhs are in a position of helplessness in this situation. I am sure the Guru will forgive...that is why the Guru is the Guru...but the Rehat is not negotiable...sorry.

And one thing...if anyone wants to tread the path of Sikhi, never ever try to assume that the Gurus could not have "dreamed" of airliners 300 years ago or know all the difficulties that the Sikhs would have to go through. The Guru and the Almighty are One, and both are beyond the mental constraints of time and space. It is we who are ignorant enough to reduce them to our mentality without realizing that what the Gurus have outlined is beyond such mortal time-constraints as we percieve the world in. So when you make a comment like the Gurus not knowing what is going to happen in 300 years, realize that you are reducing the Guru to your and my mental level. And I for one certainly cannot compose the Guru Granth Sahib or make a Khalsa Panth...if you can, I am listening.

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perhaps we've all (me included) gotten extrmely confused between the issue of "SAFETY" and the issue of "SECURITY".

No one is ever safe.... not sleeping overnight..not walking down the street...you're never SAFE because safety implies a 100% guarantee that no harm can be done.

SECURITY in my eyes is more about having control of a situation, and taking care of issues so that every situation can remain under control.

There IS a difference. If EVERYONE was carrying a knife on them on a plane, would you question your safety more than if everyone didn't? Yes, because there would be less control...you could contorl your own actions but you have no say as to what someone else does with their knife. The situation is not secure.

It's like before police go into a bulding with a hundred cons wit htheir rifles...they "secure" the building before entering...does that mean they'lll be 100% safe? most definitely not... but it means that they have a better understanding , and more contorl of the situation than if they jus run in there without any premeditation.

Maybe you're all right..maybe we're not contributing to the SAFETY of others, but we ARE contributing to the security. This is where the broken bottle as a weapon argument falls through, too. If we allow kirpans/knives/so on so forth, AND allow glass bottles....is that situation MORE UNDER CONTROL or LESS UNDER CONTROL in terms of POTENTIAL negative/violent occurrences?

And maybe it's a positive thing ot be discussing this... Frankly I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but Im' worried about the safety and security of the general public, not just me and my fellow sikhs. That's why i'm saying, if I am helping a situation be MORE under control by not wearing my kirpan, I truly, and fully believe i am contributing positively.

After all, i'm sure most of us don't want to condescend the kirpan as jsut a symbol..most of us believe it is what it is...a weapon for the defenseless.... If we want it to be recognized as a weapon, then maybe we should be aware of the treatment that it gets.

We can't be hypocrits, really... we can't say "well when we're on a plane..it's a symbol...but when i'm walkin the sterets..it's a weapon"...inconsistency ni such a matter, to me, is ignorance.

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Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA

No one is ever safe.... not sleeping overnight..not walking down the street...you're never SAFE because safety implies a 100% guarantee that no harm can be done.

If you recite Kirtan Sohila and do Ardas before bed you are perfectly safe with a forcefield around you to keep you safe.

The story of when Bhai Lehna was going to massage Guru Nanaks feet and he saw Guru Jis feet bleeding all of a sudden. BhaiJi {Guru Angad before being renamed and being bestowed Guruship} asked what is wrong your feet are bleeding did you step on something? are you hurting?

GuruJi said see that man plowing his field and reading from the Gutka. BhaiJi said "yes." GuruJi said"go get him." He is stepping on thorns while reading Gurbani and I have absorbed the thorns he is stepping on.

Nanak told the man " You are readinh Kirtan Sohila at the wrong time, you should read it before bed and then do ardas { it wasnt the same as Guru Hargobinds ardas, it was shorter and not laid out exactly, but was similar}

If you want to hear the story about the force field { email me } and youll have to wait till tommorow because its time for Kirtan Sohila for me and then Im going to bed.

I bow to the Shabad Guru d_oh.gif

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A rubber or wood Kirpan LOL.gif is the only one I can think of that you wear or you mean you were flying a remote control airplane then.

i mean regional airports, we have one here in vernon and its very small, and the flights don't have metal detectors.. ive seen the place. Heck, around here, people smuggle drugs into the region with planes cause it's so easy... what's wrong with you PRITAM SINGH, i hope you not always this weird... :@

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The KIRPAN in the first instance is there for protection - not protection of our own lives, but for the benefit of others. We dont wear kirpans to "symbolise" or "advertise" Sikhi. Therefore, if we should be defending the well-being of others, the kirpan is not the only weapon we can use. Theres no point in wearing a kirpan and not knowing how to use it. And if you train properly in how to use it, you will learn the art of combat with many other items apart from a kirpan. A ball point pen can be deadly if you know how to use it. Your hands alone can kill someone in seconds.

My point is, dont focus too much on wearing a kirpan on a plane as a symbol. We are here to defend righteousness and we should be trained beyond the kirpan to do that. There is no point boarding a plane with a kirpan and not knowing how to use it like a lot of people are guilty of. Learn the art of shaster vidhiya / gatka and learn how to become a true modern day warrior

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Pritam Singh Khalsa, where exactly can this story be found?

Historical reference please.

If you read Sohila (as it it's real name is), you will realise that it is not only composition of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, but also Guru Arjan Dev ji and Guru Ram Das Ji.

Thus the story cannot be true.

Any Bani can be read at any time. It is Bhamansvad to say that some banis can ONLY be read at some times. yes some banis are COMPULSARY at some times, since that is when you get the most out of it... But ther eis no restriction. When someone dies, you read sohila Sahib. What if someone dies 10 in the morning?

No bani is bound to any time. Yes some are mandatory at some times, but it doesn't mean you cannot read i.e. Sohila Sahib after Anand Sahib (in morning)..if you want to...

Bhull Chukk Maaf

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First of all, if one watches the news, it is becoming very apparent that there is no safe place for a Sikh. From the hate crimes to outright genocide, if someone here believes that the world is somehow a safe haven for Sikhs, they are kidding themselves.

Hate crimes happen to Muslim women wearing hijabs, too. Let's not forget that Sikkhs are not being attacked because of the principles of Sikkhism. They are being attacked because ignorant grunts do not even know what a Sikkh is and think that a dastaar-wearing Sikkh is a Muslim who sympathises with Islamic terrorists.

And "genocide"? Where? 1984? This is 2006.

Much has changed since 1984. Like...a Sikkh P.M. for example.

And if someone here thinks that the duty of the Khalsa is no longer needed, then you have only to look at Darfur, Sudan and other major world genocides to realize that the Khalsa is just as needed as today.

Good thind I didn't say that "the duty of the Khalsa is no longer needed" then, isn't it? :TH:

Regardless of what we can rationalize and do to make our minds at ease, it is a violation of Rehat, but the Sikhs are in a position of helplessness in this situation. I am sure the Guru will forgive...that is why the Guru is the Guru...but the Rehat is not negotiable...sorry.

"Not negotiable"? Okay, that's fine. But as long as you realise that you are limiting yourself as long as a civil compromise does not enter the scene. And you're gonna have to just live with that.

And one thing...if anyone wants to tread the path of Sikhi, never ever try to assume that the Gurus could not have "dreamed" of airliners 300 years ago or know all the difficulties that the Sikhs would have to go through. The Guru and the Almighty are One, and both are beyond the mental constraints of time and space. It is we who are ignorant enough to reduce them to our mentality without realizing that what the Gurus have outlined is beyond such mortal time-constraints as we percieve the world in. So when you make a comment like the Gurus not knowing what is going to happen in 300 years, realize that you are reducing the Guru to your and my mental level. And I for one certainly cannot compose the Guru Granth Sahib or make a Khalsa Panth...if you can, I am listening.

The Knight's Templar, the Crusades, the Imperial Samurai of Japan...creating a 'divine army' based on a religion isn't something new, and every time it is made it tends to make an impact on history. Interestingly, each one of these divin armies believes that they and no-one else will be rewarded.

The ol' reward scheme again. Like a dog doing tricks for that scrumptious-looking chocoloate bone. Bite-size, of course. Not the full-size one. That'd be wierd.

Personally, I don't take kindly to spiritual blackmail. But if you wish to believe a certain set of ideas, you are more than entitled to and I have nothing against you for doing so.

Furthermore, the Gurus (particularly Nanak) seemed more fascinated with God than necessarily being the same as him. The second Guru - daunted by his task of Guru-ship - even went into hiding for a good while before coming back. The fifth Guru confessed that he could not fully understand Guru Nanak's vision. And then, Guru Gobind Singh Ji - in order to topple the Mughal fascist dictatorship - used the devotion of the existing following to create an army of which he was the divine general. Like I said, this is nothing new.

But deciding how you choose to take this information and interpret it is rather important. For both you and those around you.

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Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA

Ill let you think the story is not true. BUT THIS IS TRUE.

Research yourself since its false to you.

LIONKING: The first heading is: KIRTAN Sohila mahalla PELA { 1st Guru }

You read this before someone is creamated because this is there last sleep on earth.

The Shabad is to remind us of the day that death will come.

Go actually pick up a Gutka and read yourself instead of talking about what you dont know!

It is called KIRTAN Sohila because it should be sung before bed, meaning you sing praises of God day and night Awoke and before Sleep.

Do you know what the word Gutka means from it root? { not meaning book }

It was a brake on a wagon, meaning when you live in this worldly things you read banis thus taking a brake to the material world.

Ill wait to tell the story of the force field

Lionchild: I am a very goofy kind of guy all the time , but when I talk about Sikhi and religion I am serious except when I throw in a joke, but I dont make things up.......ever......

Learn first Talk later. :e:

You can read KIRTAN SOHILA at any time but will only be benefitial before going to bed or at a funeral.

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Lionchild: I am a very goofy kind of guy all the time , but when I talk about Sikhi and religion I am serious except when I throw in a joke, but I dont make things up.......ever......

Learn first Talk later. :e:

You can read KIRTAN SOHILA at any time but will only be benefitial before going to bed or at a funeral.

it's hard to tell.. even at the best oftimes... but i guess we both need to coll down and read the message we both say :@

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Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA

The " learn first talk later" was directed towards lionking. Sorry if it looked towards you. I edited the last part so it trapped it in by the comment towards you. I should have done yours at the bottom or top "a". heheheheh [get it] [your from Canada "a" } hehehehehe respect.gif

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