whats the fine line???

[Balwinder Singh]

I was wondering whats the fine line in "karam" we do and "karam" God make us to do.

I mean we always say "God makes us to do everything....we cant do anything by ourself...we are just the tools"

Like Guru ji says:

As long as someone thinks that he is the one who acts,

jab lag jaanai mujh tay kachh ho-ay.

he shall have no peace.

tab is ka-o sukh naahee ko-ay.

As long as this mortal thinks that he is the one who does things,

jab ih jaanai mai kichh kartaa.

he shall wander in reincarnation through the womb.

tab lag garabh jon meh firtaa.

But also Guru ji says that it depends upon ur "karama" whether we r close to God or not.

Like:

According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away.

karmee aapo aapnee kay nayrhai kay door.

By their deeds and their actions, they shall be judged.

karmee karmee ho-ay veechaar.

So if we r just means through which God acts as suggested by above Gurbani lines, then how God decides "karam" as He is the one who is doing the things not us.

I know there is nuthin like "I or us"...as everything is God,

"Sabh Govind hai Sabh Govind hai"

I know its confusing....but I tried my best to explain.I hope u got my point.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Gupt daasan daas]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

just think of it this way. Everything good u do is credited to vaheguru, and with his kirpa it is acccomplished, but everything bad we do, is always because of our foolishness, and remeber vaheguru and guru je can always change our destinys

bhula chuka maf

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Khalsa4ever]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

I like to think of it this way:

Waheguru controls the universe, and thus everything that happens around us is his will.

But waheguru also gives us choices that we have to make which alter our reationship with the universe that he controls.

As such, our perception of oiur life is a combination of what we can control, and what we cannot!

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[Balwinder Singh]

Thanks for the input.This is the way u guys take this thing.

But doesn't this approach contradicts:

As long as someone thinks that he is the one who acts,

jab lag jaanai mujh tay kachh ho-ay.

he shall have no peace.

tab is ka-o sukh naahee ko-ay.

As long as this mortal thinks that he is the one who does things,

jab ih jaanai mai kichh kartaa.

he shall wander in reincarnation through the womb.

tab lag garabh jon meh firtaa.

How do we know that we are the cause behind bad things we r doing???

Regarding choices, it may be the case that they r "choices" for us but God already knows what will we choose.....or they look choices to us but they r NOT...as God already pre-ordained...what we will choose.I hope I made my point clear.

If u have seen the movie matrix...at one point somebdy say this thing that "we look at things as if they r choices...but God already made the decisions ....what will we choose." I just mentioned this thing because it seemed logical to me.

Thnx for ur input....but can u back up ur thinking with meeasge from Guru??As that will be really useful.

[Gurindar]

The best way to understand this is to read Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji's book called Karam Philosophy. A very detail description and you will never ask anyone about this topic after reading this. Get ready for the surprises when you read it.

Gur-fateh Jio

[JSingh]

Where can we get that book from? is it online?

[Simran9]

I wonder about this too sometimes.........if everything that happens is God's will, then why are there so many ppl who are from Sikh families but they don't believe in Sikhi, don't have interest for it, hate goint to gurdwara, etc. Why doesnt' God make everyone appreciate him and have faith and belief in Sikhi? :umm: I don't even know if I make any sense.......

[Balwinder Singh]

God is so gr8 that He gave me my answer from a very learned person.I was just reading few pages of "bandginama" and I got my answer.Here is the chapter which totally deals with this question:

==========================

Chapter 17

Apparent Contradictions in

Gurbani

On the one hand, the Gurus hold that whatever happens in the world is

under Divine dispensation and that His will is supreme.

He is the rst cause and sole author,

Nanak says repeat God's name again and again.

karan karavan ape ap

sada sada Nanak hari jap

Guru Arjan - Gauri.

It would thus appear that the doer of the act and the prompter, or inspirer,

of the act is one and the same - God.

God does what He wills

Humans act as He wills.

marai rakhai ekai ap

manukh kai kichh nahi hath

Guru Arjan - Gauri.

Thus things happen as God wills and humans do what God inspires

them to do jo hari lorhe so kare soi jia karan

Guru Arjan - Majh.

Helpless and impotent is the wooden marionette,

He who pulls the strings knows its moves.

The actor assumes the guise

As the director of the play directs.

kath ki putli kaha karai bapri

khelavanharo janai

jaisa bhekh karavai bajigar

oh taisa hi saj anai

Guru Arjan - Gauri.

The Author of the drama of the universe gets the actors to play their

dierent roles according to His own design and plan. The actors do as they

are prompted and inspired to do.

At the same time, stress has been laid on the need for us to exert ourselves.

We have to be up and doing, to be good, to read

the Gurbani to resort to

Simran to realize God, to earn our bread by the sweat of our brow and to

share it with the needy, to serve our fellowmen. Life is another name for toil

and sweat. In it there is no place for lotus-eaters.

0 thou Man, thou must seek thy happiness

In exertion, in earning thy living by

the sweat of thy brow.

Through unceasing remembrance of God

Thou wouldst meet Him and thy worries

would end.

udam karedia jio tu

kamavadia sukh bhunch

dhiaidia tu prabhumul

Nanak utri chint

Guru Arjan - Gujri //.

Up, up, Sister mine, let us be up and doing,

To win our Spouse, the Lord God.

sun sakhie mil udam kareha

manai laihe hari kante

Guru Arjan - Gauri.

Those who live and move and have their being in God,

Reap the fruit of their labours and are one with Him.

uthat baithat sovat nam

kaho Nanak jan kai sad kam

Guru Arjan - Gauri.

Earn thy Thing with toil

And Share it with others

This is the true path to God.

ghal khait kichhi hathoh deh

Nanak raho pachhanah se

Guru Nanak.

With each breath, think of Him, think of Him,

This will wash away the lth of thy heart.

sas sas simroh Gobind

man antar ki utrai chint

Guru Arjan - Gauri.

Through meditation, through Simran,

Thou wilt be blissful,

And thy worries and cares and troubles will end.

simar simar simar sukh pavo

kal kales tan mahi mitavoh.

Guru Arjan - Gauri.

Both the viewpoints have been emphasized in the Guru Granth, and at the

outset, the seeker will find it dificult to reconcile the two seemingly contradictory

ideas. For instance, there is the thought embodied in the following

verse:

Thou wilt not find God through austerities

Nor through worship,

He will visit you unawares.

ghal na milio sev na milio

milio ai achinta

Guru Arjan - Dhanasri.

Now, mark another verse:

Up, up, Sister mine, let us be up and doing

To win our Spouse, our Lord God.

sun sakhiye mil udam

kareha

manae laihe hari kante

Guru Arjan - Gauri.

If our labours do not carry us to God, then where is the point in asking

us to exert ourselves to toil hard, make supplications, share our wealth with

others and to serve and make sacrifices?

But we must remember that the two types of instructions are intended

for two different types of people, who are at two dierent stages of spiritual

growth; those who are in the preliminary stage and those who are at the

peak.

Sit by a physician for a while, and you will nd something amazing. For

some patients he prescribes a constipative drug, for others a purgative. To

some he suggests fomentation, to others an ice bag on the head. He is dealing

with dierent maladies in dierent cases. As the disease, so the remedy.

Similarly, the mind suers from diverse diseases, and hence the treatment

cannot be alike.

If there seem to be contradictions in the teachings of great souls, we must

not be too impatient, or over-hasty in criticising them. We must pause and

ponder, and get at the core of things.

Those who are not conversant with all types of mental and spiritual conditions

of Man would do well to rst ponder those precepts of the Gurus that

make a special appeal to them and watch and wait for a clear understanding

of things, which are yet beyond their experience or comprehension. To be

impatient to understand the latter would be tantamount to saying that the

infant should be anxious to understand the M.A. course.

How can a beginner who has yet to master the preliminary steps be in a

position to understand the crowning mysteries of the spirit? For instance,

the crown and climax of spiritual realisation is

Nothing is born, naught doth die;

His the play and He the Actor.

nah kichh janmai nah kich marai

apan chalit ap hi karai

Guru Arjan - Gauri.

God's

devotee is united with God

He and God are now One.

hari jan hari hari hoia

Nanak hari ike

Guru Ramdas - Asa.

How can the seeker grasp this subtle truth in the preliminary stage?

We receive our thought-waves through cosmic intelligence according to

certain laws. Since we cannot see the other side of the picture we fancy

that we are the authors of such thought-waves. These thought-waves govern

our whole life; our actions are impelled by these thought-waves, but these

thought-waves emanate from an unknown and an unseen source. Whatever

we do is done in pursuance of and in obedience to these thought-waves, but

since we know not, and understand not, the unknown, unseen Source, we

subjectively feel that we are doing and shaping and moulding our course.

In water, bubbles are formed by the injection of air, though seemingly the

bubbles and waves arise of themselves out of water. Similarly, we imagine

that thought currents, which emanate from our brains, are of our own creation

though in fact they come from an unknown, invisible source.

What is the genesis, the psychology of Thought?

What mental phenomena arise and operate in the brain when we ponder

an abstruse, subtle problem? As we ponder, we receive a

ash of light, a

glimmer of an idea front an unknown Source, and this

ash is interpreted by

the brain, and we joyously blurt out, \Oh! I have solved and resolved the

tangle, I have unravelled the riddle."

In fact, thought currents come from an unknown Source into our brain

and the brain only interprets them. The central point worth remembering is

that the human brain interprets the thought waves emanating from Brahm

or God, according to its own development. It cannot create them. Just as

a typewriter - a mere machine cannot type anything of itself but whenever

we so desire, we can remove the lid and type what we wish, and similarly,

the human brain cannot work of itself. It is a machine, whi

ch receives, like

a radio receiver, thought waves transmitted by Brahm, or the Innite Soul.

The brain is only a medium to receive and transmit ideas. If and when we

understand the working and nature of the brain, we begin to understand the

Guru's dictum:

Living things, humans and all.

Do what God impels and prompts them to do.

jo hari lorhe so kare soi jia karan

Guru Arjan - Rag Majh.

And when we are God-intuned and realize the reality, the inner working

of the brain, we understand the Guru's dictum. But it is by no means easy

to develop this frame of mind. It takes years of exercise in concentration to

be introspective and God-centred.

Therefore, all beginners, instead of 1eveting their attention on profound

and intricate problems of the spirit, would do better to act on the fundamentals

of gurmat. Instead of aspiring to be philosophers, they would do well to

perform Simran, and patiently wait for the stage when they can grasp the

subtlest, profoundest, and sublime truths of the Spirit eortlessly.

[DhadiMania]

good posts ppl