legal kirpan rigts

[DhadiMania]

if we also look at it, the germans want to merge all of europe into the united states of europe. now tony blair has acted like a poodle and rolled over to the fench and germans, now we have stupid laws like"you cannot deport asylum seekers, they must all have benefits, or that is a breach of their human rights" forget about people like our dadds and grandads who came to a foreign land and had to pay taxes. these asylum seekers are coming into britain with £1,000 a week. because of the human rights laws.

yet, despite saying all this human rights, they humiliate sikhs by saying they must take their turban off (yes it will apply to the european constitution i think, i am sure, well its obvious if european countires like france, belgium and germany are trying to make sikhs remove the turban). and of course the kirpan must be removed. and chancellor gordan brown and tony blair wont do anything either. they are soft puppies.

[anon]

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

im one of the youngins (though not in the uk), and i believe you should fight for your rights, but at the same time theres only so much you can do. give it a shot but if it doesnt work out, do ardas. guru sahib understands we have our hands tied behind our backs. we can only do so much. this is the reason guru sahib will get us khalistan.

vwihgurU jI kw Kwlsw!

vwihgurU jI kI &iqh!!

[natsilahk]

You (or Fauja Singh) probably won't win this case.

If you were to take this to court, and the other lawyers were to study Sikhism he would find that alot of Sikhs and even to some degree state the Kirpan is symbolic for the fight for justice. Kirpan, normally identified by a 3inch knife, can be argued to be just as symbolic as a pointed kirpan necklace. [Even Bhindranwale during his fight against India carried a Kirpan tied around him for symbolic reasons...I dont believe he actually used it to fight the Army..lol..If your going to argue that its not symbolic, then I suggest you try to fight in the Palestinian movement with only a kirpan and see how far you go]

If someone was to ask you to remove your turban and you sued, you could lose. Only if the other lawyer had studied sikhism. Turban has nothing but a cultural significance to our religion. It would be easily stated that the when asked to remove the turban the person is not harming your religion but only keeping security issues clear and same for everyone. (He's not asking you to cut your hair etc...) Right now we're allowed in most places because people are sympathetic and realize removing the turban is humiliation. Could be analogous to the traditional Jamican dress with the cap. They are asked to remove some part of the clothing for certain pictures for liscensing etc..Only reason we win these cases is because the mainstream still respects religion.

If you dont believe this now, go ahead...but soon, we'll be forced to change a bit under certain conditions.

No one can make a proof of what is a religion and what is not. No one can measure the spirituality of a religion.

I als

o agree with changing it slightly due to certain security issues. Not ever GurSikh is going to be trustworthy with a kirpan, and what if a real terrorist breaches security claiming to be khalsa and uses the kirpan as a real weapon.

You cant make exceptions to certain security issues. Religion is on a mass decline in society, as soon as people start making up complete b/s as im sure most of you have heard in your high school days such as "This baseball cap is part of my religion, like the turban is his"

Theres always a line for security. I'll draw an extreme now, if someone were to say carrying an AK47 is there religion, what would we say? Laugh at them and take it away because its ridiculous. But then as soon as society realizes that Religion was always created by man...the question pops up, who are you to claim whats religious or not? The line for security should either be to allow all of them, or none.

Right now, the public still clings to religion, and the mainstream adults respect it. Growing up with this new generation, I'm sure everyone can see that religion is on a decline for the mainstream and it wont nearly be as respected when we get older.

These issues will be faced, such as people drawing extremes to prove their point of the story.

And No, I am not supporting the French in any possible way. lol

I'm simply stating what I think will happen when the public doesnt respect religious people as they do now.

Mod : Be careful, Don't Mock panj k's. -1

[S1ngh]

You (or Fauja Singh) probably won't win this case.

You = Sikh Panth and Sikh Panth never loose :nihungsmile:

If you were to take this to court, and the other lawyer were to study Sikhism he would find that alot of Sikhs and even to some degree state the Kirpan is symbolic for the fight for justice.

Veerjee stop ready Kala Afghana books.. and btw.. defense/other lawyers aren't supid.. they do study sikhism to the full extent and thats why they pull their case before it reach to the higher court.. Simple they are afraid

Kirpan, normally identified by a 3inch knife, can be argued to be just as symbolic as a pointed kirpan necklace.

Again stop ready kala's books please... :-(

[Even Bhindranwale during his fight against India carried a Kirpan tied around him for symbolic reasons...I dont believe he actually used it to fight the Army..lol..If your going to argue that its not symbolic, then I suggest you try to fight in the Palestinian movement with only a kirpan and see how far you go]

Kiddah bhindranwale jee came to your dream and told you that he wore kirpan just for symbolic reason.. What if you and ur sister or your mom or ur gf walking down the park late evening.. enjoying the atmosphere and suddenly a mad vicious bull dog suddenly came out of bushes.. What will you do?? Fight with the stick ?? :wub:

If someone was to ask you to remove your turban and you sued, you could lose.

We won almost 100% of all these cases.. Check out sikh coalition website.. u got to catch with the current news bro.. after all .. all turban ppls are saying #1 in all those court battles...

Turban has nothing but a cultural significance to our religion.

No.. you are wrong veerjee.. Turban is Kakkar for me.. BTW i hate culture crap..

It would be easily stated that the when asked to remove the turban the person is not harming your religion but only keeping security issues clear and same for everyone. (He's not asking you to cut your hair etc...) Right now we're allowed in most places because people are sympathetic and realize removing the turban is humiliation. Could be analogous to the traditional Jamican dress with the cap. They are asked to remove some part of the clothing for certain pictures for liscensing etc..Only reason we win these cases is because the mainstream still respects religion.

If you don't mind.. from your post it seems to be that you are afraid of people around you. You have some kind of fear which shows that you want to live inside and under the people around you. Wake up singh.. See malcolm X movie or read speeches of Martin king luther.. No, Americans or others are being sympathetic with us.. They follow law and order and they will respect law keeping aside their personal thinkings (Something you and me got to learn). AFTER ALL It's under american Constitution that we have freedom of religion, means we are free to practice our religion without any fear. and UK dude u shud have know

n that sikhs and british goes as far as 18th century..

I can't reply rest of the post cauz it seems to me that you are here just to cauz trouble veerjee.. but it's okay You are our brother and we respect you

[S1ngh]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Fauja singh cant go to a olymics dinner nxt to london eye as it is against there security terms he will have to take his kirpan of which he refuses. this is against the law isnt it. can a singh sue

What are you sources veerjee ?? how you came to know.. Simarly couple of days ago u mentioned kala afghana coming to UK, but then never replied to the query of some members.. Please post some facts.. :wub: thank you veerjee

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Here's the thing. In Britain, the Sikhs have some measure of political power. The British government already recognizes and accepts what a Sikh is and what articles of faith go along with them (for historical reference, you may refer to the guidelines of the British Raaj Sikh soldiers, who were required to keep the Rehat and the Panj Pakkars).

These are roadblocks that can be overcome, especially in a country which has had exposure to the Sikhs and knows what they are. DO NOT give up the fight before it begins! It is absolutely achievable to have Bhai Fauja Singh enter that Olympic Dinner...even if it means that he is surrounded by 4 police officers if the government is really scared.

For a long time, Sikhs have been going "Oh, we are never going to win. Let us just compromise". It is time to stop and Sikhs have been challenging the authorities in many countries and WINNING. Even in a country as ignorant as America, in which very few people know who Sikhs are, there is an undefeated streak in protecting Kirpan rights. What does Britain have to fear when they have had such a Sikh presence for so long?

FIGHT AND NEVER GIVE UP!!!

:nihungsmile:

[theturbanator]

AFTER ALL It's under american Constitution that we have freedom of religion, means we are free to practice our religion without any fear

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

A Right Is Something Given And That Can Not Be Taken Away, In Other Words I Should Be Able To Wear A Kirpan To School And Not Have To Go To Court And Fight For A Right That I Already Have, If I Fight For It It Becomes Less Of A Right

Bull Chuk Maaf

[S1ngh]

But at first everyone has to fight for right.. take an example of African americans.. they fought for freedom to vote/religion and soo much.. Even the constitution said that they have every right to do whatever they want to..

So it's our duty to remind these ppls that we have freedom to do this or that.. And we have to prove it.. Once it's proved by Higher authority then rest is easy...

)And Ms514 reply is cool (Do not give up) :wub:

[Guest mehtab]

If you were to take this to court, and the other lawyers were to study Sikhism he would find that alot of Sikhs and even to some degree state the Kirpan is symbolic for the fight for justice.

Kirpaan is defined as Kirpa + Aan. Kirpa meaning grace (towards the helpless), and Aan is roughly put as self-respect, which means your own honor which you have to safeguard. Only a religion can teach such values and not a culture.

[Even Bhindranwale during his fight against India carried a Kirpan tied around him for symbolic reasons...

Sant Jarnail Singh Jee Khalsa Bhindranwale was a pooran GurSikh who wore the panj kakaars at all times. I don't think we mere people can pass any judgements about him.

I dont believe he actually used it to fight the Army..lol..

Yes he used machine guns, but does that belittle the importance of the kirpaan?

If your going to argue that its not symbolic, then I suggest you try to fight in the Palestinian movement with only a kirpan and see how far you go]

For 18 years of my life I grew up in the middle east watching all about the Palestinian struggle against Israel. I don't see your point having any relation to that movement.

If someone was to ask you to remove your turban and you sued, you could lose.

My friend, we have Gurujee on our side. We can never lose. A small battle lost is meaningless if we win the war .

Only if the other lawyer had studied sikhism.

They will have to. Not only will it make their case and logic stronger if they fight for us, it will also increase their knowledge about other cultures and faiths that exist in this world, something the average American needs badly.

Turban has nothing but a cultural significance to our religion.

This has been refuted already. Punjabi culture has existed for centuries and has cha

nged with the changes that came in Hinduism, the coming of Islam to Punjab, and then the coming of Sikhism. Religion is not bound to waves of change like culture is my friend.

It would be easily stated that the when asked to remove the turban the person is not harming your religion but only keeping security issues clear and same for everyone.

He is ofcourse violating the freedom of religion of the turbanned Sikh. We are not saying to change the rules for us, or even to mend them a bit. NO! All we want is for them to understand, accept, and respect our religious symbols (NOT cultural symbols).

(He's not asking you to cut your hair etc...)

Dear friend, if we don't action against whatever they are already doing, the day is not far when they start asking us to do that as well.

Right now we're allowed in most places because people are sympathetic and realize removing the turban is humiliation.

Which I true and I am glad people understand.

Could be analogous to the traditional Jamican dress with the cap.

The turban is not a cap. It would be offensive to compare it with one. I don't know what religion the people of Jamaica adhere to, but I am interested to know if the cap that they wear has any religious significance.

They are asked to remove some part of the clothing for certain pictures for liscensing etc..

Sikhs can still NOT be asked to remove their pictures for such formalities.

Only reason we win these cases is because the mainstream still respects religion.

I appreciate that.

If you dont believe this now, go ahead...but soon, we'll be forced to change a bit under certain conditions.

And we shall keep up the fight like ms514 veerjee said.

No one can make a proof of what is a religion and what is not. No one can measure the spirituality of a religion.

True, but once they find out that you are not going to bugde off from your stand, and that you are not going to compromise with your convictions, it is they who will have to compromise.

I also agree with changing it slightly due to certain security issues.

Once the masses are aware of Sikhs, and if they are educated and rational minded enough, I don't see why anyone would have any problem with the panj kakaars.

Not ever GurSikh is going to be trustworthy with a kirpan, and what if a real terrorist breaches security claiming to be khalsa and uses the kirpan as a real weapon.

Well then can we trust every cop who carries a gun to NOT shoot us dead for no reason at all? If a terrorist has to breach security, he/she can do it anyway, and its a matter of fate if they get caught or not. Thus, this increases the need to wear a kirpaan all the more, because once they see us wearing it, they know that we got nothing to hide, and so they'll be more understanding. A terrorist may or may not hide it, but if we keep it out open, it makes it clear that we are not hiding anything.

You cant make exceptions to certain security issues.

Security is definitely a top priority, but if we have to compromise the very core of our beliefs that make us what we are, then I say we ask for a change.

Religion is on a mass decline in society,

Which explains the need to bring awareness. Who knows how many Americans can be inspired this way to be better Christians once they see a Sikh following his/her religion no matter what it takes! Who knows how many of them are drawn to Sikhi!

as soon as people start making up complete b/s as im sure most of you have heard in your high school days such as "This baseball cap is part of my religion, like the turban is his"

I am sure the authorities are smarter than this.

Theres always a line for security. I'll draw an extreme now, if someone were to say carrying an AK47 is there religion, what would we say?

We would mail them to Afghanistan :wub: . Just kidding. Like I said earlier, the authorities are smarter than this. They can for sure and most definitely find out as to what the person is talking about and refute his ridiculous claims.

Laugh at them and take it away because its ridiculous.

There you go.

But then as soon as society realizes that Religion was always created by man...the question pops up, who are you to claim whats religious or not? The line for security should either be to allow all of them, or none.

I don't think the ones who have authority would mind reading up on the different religions that are followed in USA and reach a conclusion as to what is required to be done. It is not about what should be allowed and what not, but how much freedom can be given to everyone inspite of all the security measures (atleast in our case).

Right now, the public still clings to religion, and the mainstream adults respect it. Growing up with this new generation, I'm sure everyone can see that religion is on a decline for the mainstream and it wont nearly be as respected when we get older.

Depends what kind of company you keep my friend. These are invidualistic judgements and can vary from person to person and group to group.

These issues will be faced, such as people drawing extremes to prove their point of the story.

They shall be dealth with then.

And No, I am not supporting the F

rench in any possible way. lol

Good for you .

I'm simply stating what I think will happen when the public doesnt respect religious people as they do now.

We'll make sure they do :lol: .

[natsilahk]

Rochak, you said -

"Kirpaan is defined as Kirpa + Aan. Kirpa meaning grace (towards the helpless), and Aan is roughly put as self-respect, which means your own honor which you have to safeguard. Only a religion can teach such values and not a culture."

I dont recall calling the kirpan a cultural symbol at all..

"Sant Jarnail Singh Jee Khalsa Bhindranwale was a pooran GurSikh who wore the panj kakaars at all times. I don't think we mere people can pass any judgements about him."

lol..

"Yes he used machine guns, but does that belittle the importance of the kirpaan?"

I never said it belittled the importance of the kirpan...i used it to simply state that the kirpan even during his time against the indian army was used for a symbolic reason.

"My friend, we have Gurujee on our side. We can never lose. A small battle lost is meaningless if we win the war ."

Just like the Jews had their God on their side during the Holocaust...

Just like we had guruji on our side when we were slayed in delhi.

Just like the hindus had their god(s) on their side when they were butchered by muslims. What about the Chinese who were killed due to communism?

Go watch the movie "TROY"....the trojans lose the war because they decide to engage in war in the first place because they believe they have the "Sun God" on their side and they'll never lose. I woulda thought we'd be smarter then humans were back in those days, eh?

"This has been refuted already. Punjabi culture has existed for centuries and has changed with the changes that came in Hinduism, the coming of Islam to Punjab, and then the coming of Sikhism. Religi

on is not bound to waves of change like culture is my friend."

ok?...I said the turban is cultural. It is cultural, and holds no religous significance. I mean, I could have sworn that, the 5 K's included Kesh..

"He is ofcourse violating the freedom of religion of the turbanned Sikh. We are not saying to change the rules for us, or even to mend them a bit. NO! All we want is for them to understand, accept, and respect our religious symbols (NOT cultural symbols). "

Once again, I never said the kirpan was a cultural symbol. And also, freedom of religion is only applicable if it does not harm anyone else.

"The turban is not a cap. It would be offensive to compare it with one. I don't know what religion the people of Jamaica adhere to, but I am interested to know if the cap that they wear has any religious significance."

Holds no religious significance at all, just like the Turban.

Mind you, turban has been worn by many different people, for religous, cultural and etc. etc. etc. Guruji made KESH the kakkar, not turban.

"Well then can we trust every cop who carries a gun to NOT shoot us dead for no reason at all? If a terrorist has to breach security, he/she can do it anyway, and its a matter of fate if they get caught or not. Thus, this increases the need to wear a kirpaan all the more, because once they see us wearing it, they know that we got nothing to hide, and so they'll be more understanding. A terrorist may or may not hide it, but if we keep it out open, it makes it clear that we are not hiding anything. "

The cop thing you bring up, very valid point. But I assume the cops go through multiple training sessions and are government certified to carry guns etc in public. Most likely I could see that happening to religous deeds like the kirpan also. Its only fair then.

"Which explains the need to bring awareness. Who knows how many Americans can be inspired this way to be better Christians once they see a Sikh following his/her religion no

matter what it takes! Who knows how many of them are drawn to Sikhi!"

Lol, religion isn't on a decline in America because theres flaws in the way the Priests and Pope practice Christianity. It has nothing to do with that at all.

Its based on "Liberation Theology" People just dont quite care enough any more to go through with the discipline required for religion. They see no point in it, creates agnosticism. This even contradicts basic teachings in buddhism too.

"We would mail them to Afghanistan . Just kidding. Like I said earlier, the authorities are smarter than this. They can for sure and most definitely find out as to what the person is talking about and refute his ridiculous claims."

And like i said before, the authorities are smarter then this RIGHT NOW. RIGHT NOW they do respect religoin, but wait till the authorities are the classmates of your high school friends, or the latter generation. Religion is on a mass decline in America, and I highly doubt theres a way to stop it.

----------------------------------

Now on to attempting to answer the questions from : S1ngh

You said :

"You = Sikh Panth and Sikh Panth never loose"

Let's mature out of this 13 year old mind-state...someone has you brainwashed. Just like any other human beings, you "win some and lose some" What makes Sikhs so different?

"Veerjee stop ready Kala Afghana books.. and btw.. defense/other lawyers aren't supid.. they do study sikhism to the full extent and thats why they pull their case before it reach to the higher court.. Simple they are afraid"

Actually I never did read any Kala Afghana books...

"Again stop ready kala's books please... :-("

Never read em...is this a way to belittle me or something...i dont understand?

"No.. you are wrong veerjee.. Turban is Kakkar for me.. BTW i hate culture crap.. "

Lol, lets the change the kakkars up!...and lets not get into this debate...too off-topic.

"Kiddah bhind

ranwale jee came to your dream and told you that he wore kirpan just for symbolic reason.. What if you and ur sister or your mom or ur gf walking down the park late evening.. enjoying the atmosphere and suddenly a mad vicious bull dog suddenly came out of bushes.. What will you do?? Fight with the stick ??"

Wow, how old are you?

Bhindranwale didnt come into my dream and tell me...I just read what had happened during Operation Blue-Star and for him to fend off the Indian Army for hours with a kirpan....cant happen. He used Guns, and carried a kirpan and never used it during the war....hmm, kinda makes it symbolic then eh?

And to your next statement about the walk in the park...well instead of a kirpan then why not carry a shotgun! Suppose a bear jumps out, better be equipped with that shotgun eh :wub: Once again theres a line, either all of it, or none.

"We won almost 100% of all these cases.. Check out sikh coalition website.. u got to catch with the current news bro.. after all .. all turban ppls are saying in all those court battles..."

and You obviously missed the part in my post where i said THIS IS PROBABLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THESE CASES AS WE GET OLDER, NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW. and it will change for the aforementioned reasons. Once again, I state PROBABLY.

"If you don't mind.. from your post it seems to be that you are afraid of people around you. You have some kind of fear which shows that you want to live inside and under the people around you. Wake up singh.. See malcolm X movie or read speeches of Martin king luther.. No, Americans or others are being sympathetic with us.. They follow law and order and they will respect law keeping aside their personal thinkings (Something you and me got to learn). AFTER ALL It's under american Constitution that we have freedom of religion, means we are free to

practice our religion without any fear. and UK dude u shud have known that sikhs and british goes as far as 18th century.. "

Lol, that has to be the most complete BS I have ever heard. Yes, I cower in fear of my friends...whateva you say..

Anyway, freedom of religion as long as it doesnt harm or has potential to harm someone else. Thats what it states. You can not go practice your religion if it consists of sacrificing a black person weekly. Plus, security issues such as entering a building stem into private organizations which are different then freedom of religion in public.

You guys cant seem to understand that im not talking about NOW. Im saying wait till later, and when later comes, I cant seem to find a way around the situations. I'm only stating these questions to get you guys to think just a bit, so that we can be better equipped rather then take the hit when it comes....like we usually do.

"I can't reply rest of the post cauz it seems to me that you are here just to cauz trouble veerjee.. "

If thats the way you feel, then dont reply to my post at all. Thanks.

Rochak brings a strong point about the police officer, other then that, the rest of it wasnt worth it.

---------------------------------------------------

I seem to take a different position then you guys. You guys state Sikhs will win, whereas I look at all the possibilites to find out the best and easiest way for us to win. Think of every possibility and every occurrence that will hinder us, then only can you win with no arguement. The NYC police officers won due to a rational judge, I highly doubt we'll have someone so rational during most of the cases that will arise.

Nothing to get hostile over, eh.

Oh yeah, someone teach me how to use that quote thing..lol, where I can brake it apart into different segments. B)