Dudley Protest - Violence

[Into the Light]

It is easy to deal with the little gurdwara and the Satkaar campaign should not want to be accused

of picking on little gurdwara or be accused of hypocracy.

Satkaar is a UK based organisation and is dealing with UK based beadbee.

While Dudley & Grays Gurdwara can be considered as small Gurdwarae for UK but i wouldn't call Ramgharia Gurdwara Graham Street a small Gurdwara at all...so your statement is incorrect!

[Panjab Da Sher]

WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh!

My fellow brothers and sisters, please, Hath Jor Ke Benti - Peace and Unity.:waheguru:

Please remember the story of Masa Rangar..........These guys from Dudley were doing the same and left us with NO choice....

Fateh of Masa Rangar

Quazi Abdul Razak the Chief of Police of Amritsar was killed in an encounter with the Sikhs in October 1738. Masa Rangar was appointed in his place.

Masa Rangar converted Harmander Saheb into a vice den. The officials drank wine and smoked tobacco while the Nauch girls entertained them. By his orders all the Sikhs of Amritsar were hounded and killed. Hindus too were looted on the pretext of supporting the Sikhs.

Tej Ram, a resident of Amritsar whose house had been looted went to Bikaner and narrated his own story and the plight of Harmander Saheb to the Sikh contingent there The leader of the contingent informed the Sangat of the

happenings at Amritsar and asked for a volunteer who would bring the back Masa Rangar's head. Two Sikhs, Bhai Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh volunteered for the service.

After performing Ardaas before Guru Saheb both of them set out for Amritsar. They halted the night at Damdama Saheb. Next day disguised as Muslims carrying revenue collection from Patti they reached Amritsar. The two bags

supposed to be containg money were actually filled with shredded pottery.

Entering Harmander Saheb they tied the horses with the Berry plant. Each one of them carried a bag on his shoulder. They saw Masa Rangar sitting on a cot drinking wine and smoking Hukka. The Nauch girls were dancing. They placed the bags on the floor near the cot saying that they had come to pay the revenue. When Masa Rangar bent down to see the contents of the bags one of the Sikhs swiftly pulled out the sword and cut off his head. He emptied one bag and put the swerved head in it while the other made short of the rest of the company of Masa Rangar.

In the confusion that prevailed around both the Sikhs moved out swiftly mounted on their horses and escaped. They halted the night at Damdama Saheb and presented the head to the Sangat the next day.

charr bohithhai chaalaso saagar leharee dhaee ||

I get on board the boat and set out, but the ocean is churning with waves.

t(h)aak n sachai bohithhai jae gur dhheerak dhaee ||

The boat of Truth encounters no obstruction, if the Guru gives encouragement.

thith dhar jaae outhaareeaa gur dhisai saavadhhaan ||

He takes us across to the door on the other side, as the Guru keeps watch.

naanak nadharee paaeeai dharageh chalai maan ||3||

O Nanak, if I am blessed with His Grace, I shall go to His Court with honor. ||3||

- Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1087

Our own History shows us examples of Beadbi that had occured and how it had to be dealt with.

When all means of Adressing a Wrong fail, It is Pious and Just to raise the sword!

WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa, WaheGuru Ji Ki Fateh!

[Singhstah]

So Singh's have dealt with Dudley Gurdwara.

Next step Hazur Sahib to stop the slaughter of goats for tilak?

It is easy to deal with the little gurdwara and the Satkaar campaign should not want to be accused

of picking on little gurdwara or be accused of hypocracy.

The Satkaar campaign should deal with Hazur Sahib Takht and show it means business.

What a ridiculous thing to say. While I totally disagree with the slaughter of goats at Sri Hazoor Sahib, to compare the fried chicken booze ups the dudley masands wish to see carried out on Guru Sahib's land in Guru Sahib's name to what Hazoori Sikhs believe to be an age old maryada is ludicrous. What is happening at Dudley is a direct violation of Khalsa principles that none of the panth disputes. What happens at Hazoor Sahib however is based on one sampradas understanding of Sikhi and is a matter for the panth to decide through vichaar.

[steelman]

What a ridiculous thing to say. While I totally disagree with the slaughter of goats at Sri Hazoor Sahib, to compare the fried chicken booze ups the dudley masands wish to see carried out on Guru Sahib's land in Guru Sahib's name to what Hazoori Sikhs believe to be an age old maryada is ludicrous. What is happening at Dudley is a direct violation of Khalsa principles that none of the panth disputes. What happens at Hazoor Sahib however is based on one sampradas understanding of Sikhi and is a matter for the panth to decide through vichaar.

No it is not ridiculous.

Just because it has been going on at Hazur Sahib for ages does not make it right.

Killing animals is killing animals.

Some for consumption and Hazur Sahib for ritualistic tilak.

As a Takht it has more influence and should be stopped.

[yourmom]

No it is not ridiculous.

Just because it has been going on at Hazur Sahib for ages does not make it right.

Killing animals is killing animals.

Some for consumption and Hazur Sahib for ritualistic tilak.

As a Takht it has more influence and should be stopped.

steelman, if you believe the things that are happening at hazur sahib to be so wrong, why dont you go stop it then?

So easy to sit at desk at type saying we should do this and we should do that. What happened in dudley was required as police made us beleive there was no party going on and at the time and the sangat were doing chaupi sahib patth. the door opened to the side and we saw people inside with music loud as hell. the men from the party came out and said things i will not repeat and cannot be tolerated at all.

this is not over yet, but this will certainly send a message to all who are considering holding such events ata gurudwara or gurudwara owned premises.

what i cant understan is why our own being are not united on these issues, for once stand together.

[VanHelsingh]

Having had a chance to sleep on it and after talking to a few Singhs, my opinion on the situation has changed somewhat.

I want to write a few pages of words to explain myself but I've not got the patience so I'll keep it short. The general population is being emasculated and frightened by those in power so that we take whatever crap is dished out to us without even a murmur. That's the first thing. Secondly, bring Sikhi into the equation and we all know we're under attack from various sides just because we refuse to die out. That's the truth of the situation.

Now there's a new dimension to proceedings where Sikhs are being used against Sikhs in order to create splits in the Sikh faith. There will come a time where amritdhari's will be labelled as "extreme" and monay or sehajdharis will portray themselves as the liberal alternative. What's the end game of this policy? Dissuade future generations from bringing up their children as amrtidhari or in saroop so that Sikhi in its truest form will eventually die out. That's the big picture and something that needs to be considered. This is what is extremely worrying. But that's a discussion for another day.

Whilst I don't condone violence and attacks on authorities (no matter how incorrect these people are), if we don't stand up for ourselves we're done for. I hope in the future our youth will not have to resort to such heavy-handed tactics - no matter how just - in order to get things done. Remember, we're not just sipahis we're supposed to be sants too. But anyway, that's my feeling on the situation and I hope God will bless those who had to take drastic measures in order to protect His legacy and his institutions.

[ub1]

Why are Satkaar Group selecting their campaigns against beadbi ???

There are so many other places where maryada and anti-Gurmat practices are being promoted. For example, Anand Karaj of non-Sikhs at Gurdwarae -Havelock Road, Southall (largest Gurdwara outside of India) openly allows this ????? Where are the Satkaar Group -to scared to get fisted by Sohi's army !?

Another thing, makes Sikhs seems like a group of thugs in the western media -they dont know masa rangar, hoozer sahib, sant saphi concept -two wrongs do not make a right !

Still look on the bright side, those convicted will be sent to Winson Green prison in Birmingham (for about 3 months) and then transfered to either Wormwood scrubs or the other near Peterbrough -hope their loved ones can travel to see them for the 1-2 hours every 2 weeks.

[dalsingh101]

There will come a time where amrtidhari's will be labelled as "extreme" and monay or sehajdharis will portray themselves as the liberal alternative. What's the end game of this policy? Dissuade future generations from bringing up their children as amrtidhari or in saroop so that Sikhi in its truest form will eventually die out. That's the big picture and something that needs to be considered. This is what is extremely worrying. But that's a discussion for another day.

An alternative reading could be that those monay/sehajdharis that are genuinely interested in their faith and keep it alive through learning Gurmukhi/prayer/Sikh itihaas etc. may produce the environment from which some of their family commit a stage further and become Amritdhari?

You talk about the label of extreme, I remember only a short while ago when monay SP types were the ones being labeled as 'extreme' for their beliefs/action/behaviour by some of the more flaccid Amritdhari brothers.

I just hope brothers can get physical (when it is needed) with outsiders too, and not only show 'bravery' in internal clashes.

Whilst I understand your fear of being negatively stereotyped, another part of me thinks that constantly tip toeing as if around eggshells, just so as we don't upset the white establishment/majority is just more of the passive, scared stuff that we used to see many many years ago when paki bashing became rampant and the police were openly hostile/racist.

I don't think it's right to attack bazurags but I do think it is refreshing to see that some apnay aren't easily cowed down by the police. As you've alluded to, we've become so accustomed to emasculated responses to authority, this was a shock to the system (in both senses).

[VanHelsingh]

An alternative reading could be that those monay/sehajdharis that are genuinely interested in their faith and keep it alive through learning Gurmukhi/prayer/Sikh itihaas etc. may produce the environment from which some of their family commit a stage further and become Amritdhari?

You talk about the label of extreme, I remember only a short while ago when monay SP types were the ones being labeled as 'extreme' for their beliefs/action/behaviour by some of the more flaccid Amritdhari brothers.

I just hope brothers can get physical (when it is needed) with outsiders too, and not only show 'bravery' in internal clashes.

Whilst I understand your fear of being negatively stereotyped, another part of me thinks that constantly tip toeing as if around eggshells, just so as we don't upset the white establishment/majority is just more of the passive, scared stuff that we used to see many many years ago when paki bashing became rampant and the police were openly hostile/racist.

I don't think it's right to attack bazurags but I do think it is refreshing to see that some apnay aren't easily cowed down by the police. As you've alluded to, we've become so accustomed to emasculated responses to authority, this was a shock to the system (in both senses).

I guess there's good and bad in both camps. Like I said earlier in the week, there's shades of grey that need to be taken into account.

But in reference to what happened yesterday (consumption of alcohol on premises purchased from sangat funds AND the playing of music), a group wanted to incite the Singhs to riot and that's what took place. I would've hoped the bait was not taken BUT when disrespect, goading and blatant paap was occuring right under the noses of people who were there to protest against it, something had to give.

A part of me keeps returning to the notion of non-violence in order to consider the wider aspects of the overall situation (taking into account the long-term implications of the Sikh community being tarred with the "extremist" brush). Then there's the other part of me that thinks how wrong it would be turn a blind eye to yesterday's situation, knowing full well that a few forceful actions could prevent something like this from occuring again.

It's a delicate situation and one we should all face together united.

[dalsingh101]

taking into account the long-term implications of the Sikh community being tarred with the "extremist" brush

This is an important consideration but the danger of becoming a docile people due to an acute fear of the above is an equally important matter to consider. Personally I think we've done the compliant, friendly thing to death now. We are starting to look weak as a result - politically, and physically on a street level.

Some of us believe that leads to another set of problems where the perceived weakness makes us targets for those of a more predatory disposition. Plus, it could be argued that this desire to appear inoffensive to whites is creating a 'lackey' mentality and image.

I just wish certain people could have shown as much verve and anakh when sullay first started to target dim witted apneean back in the day. I hope they will show it to face this long standing issue conclusively some time in the future - should it be required.