GORAE doing guru sahibs beadbi (UK)

[Pyara]

I am wondering whether KhalsaSingh would rather be frozen and preserved or live?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji have Sukhasan for a reason.

Exactly.....Why then bother going to a Gurdwara to have Guru Granth Sahib Ji's darshan if one believes Guru Granth Sahib Ji is an object that can be frozen in a vault for hundreds of years. The GURBani is timeless, Our Guru Ji is therefore eternal, the age of a saroop is therefore irrelevant........ I reckon anyone who thinks it's ok for saroops of Guru Granth Sahib Ji to be in a library should go to that library and get Guru Granth Sahib Ji out like they would take out a best seller or reference book or the kama sutra or some other disguting book. I bet anyone who professes to be a Sikh would not have the guts to do it.......So why do some Sikhs keep attempting to justify that their Guru is just a book and should remain in an air conditioned library.....I'll never get it....I'm stoopid....

[00gurpreet_singh00]

pritam singh, it is obvious that you only know one side of the story, you should try learning the other side as well before posting lies on the internet

umm what other side?? :wub: ohhhh u mean the pro raag mala bani side. :wub:: yaaa lets hear that too then :TH:

you should read sant gyanee gurbach singh's arth of raagmala, raagmala guru hai, and i once read somestuff writen by amritpal singh of www.amritworld.com that pretty much proves all the argument given by pritam singh to be wrong. I'm not sure where i read it tho, but if i see it online, i'll post it here

people are always posting stupidness abouthow alam wrote raagmala, without knowing anything who alam was.

and pritam singh is talking about the saroop recited by Guru Gobind Singh Jee out of memory......did unot ever think that if anyone knew where this saroop was that there would obviously be no arguement about raagmala.

and if every bani in guru granth sahib has its author stated at the front, then i guess japjee sahib isnt bani either.

The point im trying to make is that you sholdnt read a couple articles on the internet and come to a conclusion and think you must be 100% right, true gurmukhs such as Sant GUrbachan Singh, Bhai Veer Singh, Sant Isher SIngh, Baba Nand Singh, Baba Bir SIngh, Baba Jawala Singh and contless others all believed in raag mala. Do you thijnk these gursikhs were stupid for believing in raag maalaa? DO you not think they had legitamate reasons for belkieving in it? Then ,maybe you should learn their reasons as well. The kamaee they did in one life, we would be fortunate to do in 1000 lives.

[Lionchild]

The point im trying to make is that you sholdnt read a couple articles on the internet and come to a conclusion and think you must be 100% right, true gurmukhs such as Sant GUrbachan Singh, Bhai Veer Singh, Sant Isher SIngh, Baba Nand Singh, Baba Bir SIngh, Baba Jawala Singh and contless others all believed in raag mala. Do you thijnk these gursikhs were stupid for believing in raag maalaa? DO you not think they had legitamate reasons for belkieving in it? Then ,maybe you should learn their reasons as well. The kamaee they did in one life, we would be fortunate to do in 1000 lives.

i'm not that deep into sikhi yet, so i don;'t knowm uch on this topic. Could you provide links to this Raag mala? i would like to know more - thanx. :wub:

[KhalsaSingh]

Create awareness is the first thing to do. Without the Sikh community feeling that the saroops in British Library are their responsibility nothing will happen. Of course I agree with your points above preservation no denying the fact that the correct environment is required ie room temp.

I think this should be done first otherwise we have no basis to campaign for it outside of the Sikh community, we should raise awareness of the issue but specifically looking at creating a proper curation environment i.e. resources such as people to start off with eg. Singhs who have studied practicing curation. Do you know of any?? Then once we have an infastructure in place our efforts will get recognised from the outside and thus make it more difficult to deny us this. Right now its "we want our saroops back" goray says "why, so you can look after them how???" they do not recognise their own beadbi so we should chalenge them on their own playing field.

Lets not forget that the Library with all its controls and preservation still is not the correct place for Guruji's saroops.

Of course never denied that, just accept that those Saroops are being better preserved for the future than anything we can do for them right?

Singh thats what you need to do aswell. Do you feel responsible for the saroops at BL?

I cant honestly say yes to that because if I did i'd be studying curation, then getting a job at the BL to see how they do it, working with people like that beadbi boy jeevan deol to try and change things from the inside out. Once i've learnt enough then go to the community and say "right we need this this and this before we have a chance at getting the Saroops out of their beadbi environment" and thats something your only just recognising but we are only upto the point of making people aware that there is a problem not what we need to do to solve it.

Your posts feel as if you want to chuck a spanner in the works before awareness has been created. With Maharaj Kirpa we can do anything!

Thats all you needed to have said.... good luck with the campaign if you beat around the bush with personal comments. Would it have not made more sense to been a bit more direct in the first place by just have said the above. However I thought the post was just adding a touch of realism as your post didnt really have any sort of proposal as to how to achieve the ultimate goal of getting the Saroops back. "We want them back now, dont care how, dont care what happens to them as a result, we just want them back" Thats the attitude I got from this, could be wrong. Might just like you said have the beaten down mentality to have thought that.

I got an idea. Lets not do anything because the task is too big...we are not capbable of investing in this infrastructure as we are a backward community. Thank God for the progressive Brits, without whom the Sikh religion would have been wiped out!!! The Brits can look after Guru Granth Sahib Ji better than us because they have air conditioning.

NB. KhalsaSingh, I am being a sarcy git!

and SSM, in all your bitching and sarcasm you havn't actually put forward any sort of proposal. You really are simply bitching. You have no goals nor any method of achieving them. Your attitude stinks of the 12yr old child who is insisting his mum takes him to KFC this second even though she has no car and your just sat in the corner screaming.

Never said anything like we are not capable, just recognise you have only mentioned the need for having an infastructure after somone else pointed it out to you, you who's campaigning to get the saroops back yet hasnt put any sort of comment on how to do it, other than your clever sarcasm.

Come out with something useful otherwise go do some simran, might make your grow up. But i forget, your only like 16

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

pritam singh, it is obvious that you only know one side of the story, you should try learning the other side as well before posting lies on the internet

umm what other side?? :wub: ohhhh u mean the pro raag mala bani side. :wub:: yaaa lets hear that too then :TH:

But you should read sant gyanee gurbach singh's arth of raagmala, raagmala guru hai, and i once read somestuff writeen by amritpal singh of www.amritworld.com that pretty much proves all the argument given by pritam singh to be wrong. I'm not sure where i read it tho, but if i see it online, i'll post it here

people are always posting stupidness abouthow alam wrote raagmala, without knowing anything who alam was.

and pritam singh is talking about the saroop recited by Guru Gobind Singh Jee out of memory......did unot ever think that if anyone knew where this saroop was that there would obviously be no arguement about raagmala.

and if every bani in guru granth sahib has its author stated at the front, then i guess japjee sahib isnt bani either.

The point im trying to make is that you sholdnt read a couple articles on the internet and come to a conclusion and think you must be 100% right, true gurmukhs such as Sant GUrbachan Singh, Bhai Veer Singh, Sant Isher SIngh, Baba Nand Singh, Baba Bir SIngh, Baba Jawala Singh and contless others all believed in raag mala. Do you thijnk these gursikhs were stupid for believing in raag maalaa? DO you not think they had legitamate reasons for belkieving in it? Then ,maybe you should learn their reasons as well. The kamaee they did in one life, we would be fortunate to do in 1000 lives.

On this subject it is always one word against another.

We all know Mahala pela composed JapJi the Raagless Bani, and Ik Oankar is the Mool mantar. In your case if alam didnt compose it then who did????? The bir from GuruJis memory was hidden or destroyed to further hide the Raag Mala evidence.

You say from all the books and websites and I cant have a personal conclusion but then you say your Amritpal Singh website to be the facts????????? Different Gianis have different opinions and questions. Different websites have different opnions and questions. Different books have guess what? different opinions and questions.I never called anyone stupid over the issue Gianis or papis, I just think it should not be included because it does not fit because Dhan Dhan Guru Arjan dev Ji Shaheedi has the Shabad in all birs. My point is we can onlyadd up the pros and cons and which ever one is heavier will be what the Authority states as fact, and not from our input but from a comitee of GurSikhs chosen by the panth so there is no corruption but a serious court hearing about what the panth should do and say besides just blindly going about knowing there is somewhat of an issue that divides people from within. Once they drop a no matter what hukam for eternity about the issue there is going to be contraversy.

I would completely follow the official hukam with no questions asked!!!!!!

I bow to the shabad Guru

[KharkooSingh]

Why is the thread going off topic? This issue is real and has been highlighted on the internet. There are no personal vendettas here. No attacks on anyone. No one is professing to be an internet warrior or more superior than anyone else.

Yes, we have no strategy as yet, but let's at least get the ball rolling. Raise awareness with your local Sikh leaders, get them involved. Put pressure as the Sikh community on our representatives (like Sikh Fed, SIE etc) to create some kind of panel to resolve this situation. We don't have the answers yet, but we do have Maharaj's kripa.

Iissues of beadbi always divide the Sikh kaum. Some Sikhs see at as an issue that needs tackling and some don’t. It’s like the rummalla which has accidentally fallen on the floor in the Gurdwara Sahib, some Sikhs see the rummalla and pick it up whilst some Sikhs don’t notice the rummalla on the floor and walk straight past.

[Harpartap Singh]

Yes we do have a strategy.

We want Guru ji saroops, wherever they may be, to be treated with the proper respect.

We do not want Guru ji saroop to stay in any Library.

We are entering discussions with BL now - this is our goal.

As for resources - when BL agree then we will arrange for 'appropriate' premises and facilities. As a bare minimum, the BL should devote some of its funding to ensure Guru ji saroop are kept properly. Our community is approx 1% of this country's population so that is a big sum of money that the BL is getting from US.

Why is the thread going off topic? This issue is real and has been highlighted on the internet. There are no personal vendettas here. No attacks on anyone. No one is professing to be an internet warrior or more superior than anyone else.

Yes, we have no strategy as yet, but let's at least get the ball rolling. Raise awareness with your local Sikh leaders, get them involved. Put pressure as the Sikh community on our representatives (like Sikh Fed, SIE etc) to create some kind of panel to resolve this situation. We don't have the answers yet, but we do have Maharaj's kripa.

Iissues of beadbi always divide the Sikh kaum. Some Sikhs see at as an issue that needs tackling and some don’t. It’s like the rummalla which has accidentally fallen on the floor in the Gurdwara Sahib, some Sikhs see the rummalla and pick it up whilst some Sikhs don’t notice the rummalla on the floor and walk straight past.

[One Man Army]

pritam singh, it is obvious that you only know one side of the story, you should try learning the other side as well before posting lies on the internet

umm what other side?? :wub: ohhhh u mean the pro raag mala bani side. :wub:: yaaa lets hear that too then :TH:

But you should read sant gyanee gurbach singh's arth of raagmala, raagmala guru hai, and i once read somestuff writeen by amritpal singh of www.amritworld.com that pretty much proves all the argument given by pritam singh to be wrong. I'm not sure where i read it tho, but if i see it online, i'll post it here

people are always posting stupidness abouthow alam wrote raagmala, without knowing anything who alam was.

and pritam singh is talking about the saroop recited by Guru Gobind Singh Jee out of memory......did unot ever think that if anyone knew where this saroop was that there would obviously be no arguement about raagmala.

and if every bani in guru granth sahib has its author stated at the front, then i guess japjee sahib isnt bani either.

The point im trying to make is that you sholdnt read a couple articles on the internet and come to a conclusion and think you must be 100% right, true gurmukhs such as Sant GUrbachan Singh, Bhai Veer Singh, Sant Isher SIngh, Baba Nand Singh, Baba Bir SIngh, Baba Jawala Singh and contless others all believed in raag mala. Do you thijnk these gursikhs were stupid for believing in raag maalaa? DO you not think they had legitamate reasons for belkieving in it? Then ,maybe you should learn their reasons as well. The kamaee they did in one life, we would be fortunate to do in 1000 lives.

On this subject it is always one word against another.

We all know Mahala pela composed JapJi the Raagless Bani, and Ik Oankar is the Mool mantar. In your case if alam didnt compose it then who did????? The bir from GuruJis memory was hidden or destroyed to further hide the Raag Mala evidence.

You say from all the books and websites and I cant have a personal conclusion but then you say your Amritpal Singh website to be the facts????????? Different Gianis have different opinions and questions. Different websites have different opnions and questions. Different books have guess what? different opinions and questions.I never called anyone stupid over the issue Gianis or papis, I just think it should not be included because it does not fit because Dhan Dhan Guru Arjan dev Ji Shaheedi has the Shabad in all birs. My point is we can onlyadd up the pros and cons and which ever one is heavier will be what the Authority states as fact, and not from our input but from a comitee of GurSikhs chosen by the panth so there is no corruption but a serious court hearing about what the panth should do and say besides just blindly going about knowing there is somewhat of an issue that divides people from within. Once they drop a no matter what hukam for eternity about the issue there is going to be contraversy.

I would completely follow the official hukam with no questions asked!!!!!!

I bow to the shabad Guru

the fact stil remains veer ji that that is Guru mahraaj. If u believe thats Guru Sahib sitting their then do you really think that some next random person could come and sneak raag malla in? or alter Guru Sahib in any shape or form? thats Akaal Purak! theres nothing more powerful or greater. my view is based purely on belief, that that is Guru Gobind Singh ji sitting their. no one has the power to alter anything on mahraaj. no ones as powerful as Guru Sahib.

[Guest PRITAM SINGH KHALSA]

the fact stil remains veer ji that that is Guru mahraaj. If u believe thats Guru Sahib sitting their then do you really think that some next random person could come and sneak raag malla in? or alter Guru Sahib in any shape or form? thats Akaal Purak! theres nothing more powerful or greater. my view is based purely on belief, that that is Guru Gobind Singh ji sitting their. no one has the power to alter anything on mahraaj. no ones as powerful as Guru Sahib.

:TH:

[kamalroop singh]

Das, has studied at the British library over the last six years. I have been reading this thread and there are a number of issues people have raised. Firstly the British library have quite a strict policy about how manuscripts are treated, including Sri Guru Granth/Dasam Granth Sahibs: Hands must be clean, the manuscript must be positioned correctly, no pens are allowed to be used, and people are nearby supervising, no photographs are allowed. I respect all of this. However it always hurts me, that Guru Granth Sahib is not given a greater respect by the library. None of the Saroops/Gutke are in Rumalle.

I have spoken to Michael O'Keefe about this, but he said that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji in Punjab libraries recieved little or no respect. Unfortunately that is the case! Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth Sahib/Sarbloh Granth is kept on shelves in practically all the libraries. The most respect I have seen was as Punjabi University Patiala, where the Saroops were in Rumalle and ceremonially seated on Gaddiya. The worst example were Saroops in metal cabinets with the SGPC with no Gaddiya, and sometimes no rumalle. Apparently they are working on changing this. I complained to Jathedar Vedanti Sahib in person, of this complete and utter disrespect of the bani of our Guru Sahiban. It is a sad fact that the British library have preserved these manuscripts better than Sikhs have in Punjab and India. While us Sikhs are guilty of both cremation of extant priceless Sarups, and lack of respect and preservation. However this does not change the fact that the Guru Granth Sahib/Dasam Granth is kept unceremoniously at the British Library.

There are a number of libraries in the UK that have very old copies of Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth, I have had Darshan of most of them. They are all over the UK. There is a very old Saroop of Guru Granth Sahib, one of the oldest on record, circa mid to late 17th century at another top University. You will find other Saroops of Guru Granth Sahib at Edingburgh, Manchester, and Cambridge, there is a large list. There is even one Saroop in Ireland taken in the battle of Gujarat. Some of the Saroops were taken as loot by the British in the Anglo-Sikh wars. There may be a law that requires them to return them back to the Guru Khalsa Panth. Like Dasam Pita's shastar were returned back not long ago by the Crown. It is correct that the British library has the most handwritten Saroops, however there are more saroops that are printed, or stone-printed, Pathhar Chapp in the British library. I have also had Darshan of these Saroops. Therefore it is incorrect to say there are only 17 saroops of Guru Ji at the British Library, in actual fact there are many more. If the R4G want a list of numbers/etc, I can provide it.

The parkash of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib at the V and A was completely wrong, and should never be repeated. The saroop was left Parkash for months. Imagine if that happended in a Gurudwara we would all get very very upset. However if powerful establishments do that, its fine! Many of the Saroops given to the British by Sikhs were given with Chananee, Gaddiya, which is sometimes recorded in the details of the Saroop. The donaters requested the British to show respect to both Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth by using these. Unfortunately they have not kept to their word. Some Saroops even have records by those who took them in battle like 'never to leave England' 'taken from the camp of the Sikhs', 'taken from the hands of a dying Sikh'.

Most of the people who the British library consult are Coconuts, they will do anything to please these powerful organisations to gain some favours, or get their organisation or name promoted. Sad fact is, our organisations do not represent Sikhs they represent the objectives of these organisations. In the garb of heritage, interfaith, and tolerance, they continue to sell out the Guru, the Panth, and the Shahids. What makes us a unique Panth is our reverance for our living Guru, Guru Granth Sahib. The moment we allow Maharaj to be treated like a book, is one step closer to becoming Anglicised, by moving away from our way of life, our Rahit Maryada. If you research the so-called heritage movments around, you will find they are simply lining their own pockets.