(Free Will) Does God Know What We Will Choose?

[DustOfTheSaintsFeet]

Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj is beyond time. He is Akal Purakh. Time is an illusion and does not exist. Free will is another illusion and there is no definition of free will that is flawless. Every human being is acting as their environment pulls or pushes them too. Everything depends on something, but only Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj is independant. For some Akal Purakh has put as the recievers and some as the givers, but he has put only some get to play the game of love with him. Edgar Cayce, has a faulty logic. If Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj doesn't know how certain things will play out then he is not in the infinite or the all knower. And free will becomes the Lord as it knows more than Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. Also Akal Purakh being eternal, then there is no past or present or future for Akal Purakh. Again time is a construct of the creation and does not exist like the creation. Gurbani tells us that Shabad Guru, understands Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. The human mind is not unpredictable. One human can't understand another humans mind in totality because both are limited in their understanding. What humans can or can't do is not the benchmark for what Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj is capable of. Gurmukhs don't have free will either because free will doesn't exist for no one. Gurmukhs are under the grace of Satguru and act as Satguru tells them too. Others are under the control of the 5 vices (ego, anger, lust, greed, and/or attachment). When you are under the control of the 5 vices, then you are under the control of the creation, which Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj has subjected you too and you will die as the creation will die one day. However Satguru is beyond death and birth, so whoever is given Satguru's grace becomes one with Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj. At his command one recieves the grace of Satguru and becomes Gurmukh. His command can't be described in totality, but as Sikhs we know bits and pieces. The more devotion and love we are given by Satguru, then more we are able to understand Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. Beg for his mercy, meditate on his name, is the instructions of Satguru.

That is beautiful, thanks.

[SantLUCIFER]

He's God.

[DustOfTheSaintsFeet]

lol damn right, who and what isn't!

[SinghSabha]

Then why do we punish thieves, killers and rapists, if it Waheguru's command that made them do these things? Aren't we instructed to accept Akal Purakh's Hukam?

[innergear]

Basicly the when is on time but the god is not in time . Timeless . Etc etc etc

[Kalsingh]

Saying there is no free will contradicts what bani says about this. Bani says that we are responsible for our actions and that we cannot blame God. I have read this.

Anyway, in terms of if God knows what we will choose or not choose has still not been answered. I don't think any of us can really know. I still feel theres maybe things he does not know (or maybe chooses not to know, but could if he wanted to?), because if he did, then why would he let people make the wrong choices (knowing what the result is going to be).

Wouldn't he stop that from happening? I'm sure he would because he completely condemns the actions of humans committed under the influence of maya (as can be understood through gurbani).

[Kalsingh]

Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj is beyond time. He is Akal Purakh. Time is an illusion and does not exist. Free will is another illusion and there is no definition of free will that is flawless. Every human being is acting as their environment pulls or pushes them too. Everything depends on something, but only Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj is independant. For some Akal Purakh has put as the recievers and some as the givers, but he has put only some get to play the game of love with him. Edgar Cayce, has a faulty logic. If Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj doesn't know how certain things will play out then he is not in the infinite or the all knower. And free will becomes the Lord as it knows more than Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. Also Akal Purakh being eternal, then there is no past or present or future for Akal Purakh. Again time is a construct of the creation and does not exist like the creation. Gurbani tells us that Shabad Guru, understands Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. The human mind is not unpredictable. One human can't understand another humans mind in totality because both are limited in their understanding. What humans can or can't do is not the benchmark for what Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj is capable of. Gurmukhs don't have free will either because free will doesn't exist for no one. Gurmukhs are under the grace of Satguru and act as Satguru tells them too. Others are under the control of the 5 vices (ego, anger, lust, greed, and/or attachment). When you are under the control of the 5 vices, then you are under the control of the creation, which Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj has subjected you too and you will die as the creation will die one day. However Satguru is beyond death and birth, so whoever is given Satguru's grace becomes one with Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj. At his command one recieves the grace of Satguru and becomes Gurmukh. His command can't be described in totality, but as Sikhs we know bits and pieces. The more devotion and love we are given by Satguru, then more we are able to understand Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. Beg for his mercy, meditate on his name, is the instructions of Satguru.

As per your understanding, do you feel there are souls who will never reach God for eternity?

[SinghSabha]

Saying there is no free will contradicts what bani says about this. Bani says that we are responsible for our actions and that we cannot blame God. I have read this.

Anyway, in terms of if God knows what we will choose or not choose has still not been answered. I don't think any of us can really know. I still feel theres maybe things he does not know (or maybe chooses not to know, but could if he wanted to?), because if he did, then why would he let people make the wrong choices (knowing what the result is going to be).

Wouldn't he stop that from happening? I'm sure he would because he completely condemns the actions of humans committed under the influence of maya (as can be understood through gurbani).

I think we need to identify what God is. I don't think He is some guy up there looking down on us and weighing our actions on a scale to see if we get liberated or not. Liberation happens during life, according to our own efforts. That is what it means to be jivan mukht. It is to merge your essence with Akal Purakh while in this life. This is done by attaining good Karma via living in accordance with His Hukam.

To live with His Hukam is to be one with the universe (sorry for the cliche) because Waheguru created all and is within all of creation. From our cells, to the stars and galaxies. It is all Him.

We are free to choose our own actions, but it cannot be differentiated from Him because He is within us and we are a part of Him.

Then why choose to do good over bad, If it is all His doing? Society decides what is good or bad. His actions are above our judgement, laws and code of conduct. Our Gurus have given us a Dharam (Dharma), which is our path of righteousness. We are free to accept it or reject it. If we accept it, then we can call ourselves Sikhs.

[humkire]

This is a great discussion about free will, and it is fascinating for an older 54 year old person like me, to see what I believe are many young intelligent Sikh youths on here, discussing this topic so passionately! I say this because in my youth(60s,70s, 80s, early 90s), there were no computers or youth samelans etc and very very few avenues where Sikh youths could so openly discuss about Sikhi. It used to be a one sided show where you go to Gurudwara and listen to parchar and never could ask questions, give your views etc. Hence, while for many of you it is normal to discuss on the internet, it is absolutely exciting for older people like me to watch you doing so and very inspiring too! All that posh words you use, the ways you express yourself make me so so proud of you haha to know in our panth in the coming generation, we have such clever people like all of you, gladdens my heart and increases my ‘josh’ for Sikhi even more! I think you should help create a website dedicated to older Sikhs like myself where we in the 50s over age group can fight and argue about Sikhi! Hahaha. That would be fun! You could call it the ‘ buddhesikhsangat.com’ hahaha.

Anyway, to come back to the discussion at hand raised by Kal Singh, I can see a constructive consensus building here, based upon many people’s rightful take of Gurbani, that this issue operates at two levels. Firstly God who is beyond time is omniscient i.e all knowing inclusive of His knowledge of past, present and future in the realms of creation, time and yugas. The contributor here ‘’Inner Gear’’ has put this in not so many words using his youthful internet abbreviations very smartly, and I wish he was my son because I respect his grasp of important gurmat concepts and the ability to express them in a very original sometimes almost unintelligable way hehe using absolutely short sentences. ‘Only five’ has then very painstakingly spelt out how God is not only the knower of all, but the Real author and Creator of all whether gurmukh or manmukh as bizaare as it sounds. This is all in accordance with many many different verses from Gurbani, too numerous to be quoted here, that God designs, creates and operates according to his masterplan better known as hukum, as ‘GuptUnknown’ put it.

At another level, within creation, as ‘Kaljugi’ summarised, such is the veil on our understanding that it appears we are playing the game when the game player is God who decides the nature and outcome of all these individual games involving each soul that are all intricately woven to be part of one huge mighty overall game . We think we are in control of our lifes, but every now and then something jolts us to realise it is all God’s mighty plan.

Going beyond that, as per se Gurbani, within creation we need to exercise responsibility and make choices that are rightful in the direction of becoming Gurmukhs and never ever excuse ourselves by shifting any blame for continuing to indulge in the tri-guna based, karmic trap of the matrix, instead of surrendering our lifes to be within the grace of God and Guru. This was highlighted by ‘Singh Sabha’.

Hence you find that Shree Guru Nanak Dev truly as a jagat- Guru , even though preaching about God as being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, spent so many many years walking to distant lands and continents to bring the blessing of Sikhi and gurmat to the world. Yes, God is in all and knows the outcome of all, and arranges all, BUT we as mere mortals whilst being mindful of that, have to focus on living a humble life in the presence of God becoming ever better gurmukhs and chiding others to do the same.

It is like two truths but one. We feel the earth beneath our feet as being still and that is a fact. We feel safe to stand, walk and run and evewrything appears to be still wherever we are. However, at another physical dimension we are moving at a rapid speed and that is an opposite fact! The earth at any one time is rotating around itself, spinning around the sun, and then as part of the solar system, is moving together with the rest of the entire family of planets of the solar system around our Milky Way galaxy, and then as part of the Milky Way galaxy it is moving in a certain direction in the known universe! So much of movement and yet under our feet it is all sssssh…. Very silent.

So in Sikhi it is similar. Some things we know and keep at the back of our mind as the real truth/Reality behind things. But then at the physical/mayic level, we focus on remembering this is dharam khand(Japjee pauree 34/35), where if we operate by dharma then we can make a start in catapulting out of the matrix to gyan khand, then saram khand, karam(grace) khand, and beyond into sachkhand, the soul’s ultimate home.

Hence it is not an either, or, kind of situation. Rather, of truth that stretches out like a rainbow into eternity and infinity. Absolutely confusing, mind blowing, thrilling and insanely magical! So unpredictably predictable!

[Only five]

As per your understanding, do you feel there are souls who will never reach God for eternity?

Gurbani tells us that those souls who don't follow Guru Sahib hukams will not reach for eternity. Again your dwelling on something that doesn't exist. The pleasure of birth and the pain of death is something we humans have created as factual events in a humans life. In fact we are so self absorbed that we believe we are real. Hence this question you presented here comes up. It's good you asked this question, but don't dwell on it so much. As i said before, everything is dependant on something. Your decision to by a car a house or act in a certain way is dependant on your life experience, social life, mental ability, biological make, etc. We humans are subject to many things in our environment that we don't even realize. The Buddhuist monks try to reach a state of complete nothingness, where they have no desires (so they can chose at their own will), but the act of reaching such a state is a desire in itself (Satguru calls it ego). Our minds are not free at all. We are subject to our limited thinking ability. And how do we know what level of thinking ability is suppose to be referred to as free will? Everything is relative and nothing is independant, unless we speak about Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. For Sikhs we are dependant on Saguru to reach the independant (Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj).

Keep reading Gurbani, the question will become clearer to you.