Jump to content

(Free Will) Does God Know What We Will Choose?


Recommended Posts

Saying there is no free will contradicts what bani says about this. Bani says that we are responsible for our actions and that we cannot blame God. I have read this.

Anyway, in terms of if God knows what we will choose or not choose has still not been answered. I don't think any of us can really know. I still feel theres maybe things he does not know (or maybe chooses not to know, but could if he wanted to?), because if he did, then why would he let people make the wrong choices (knowing what the result is going to be).

Wouldn't he stop that from happening? I'm sure he would because he completely condemns the actions of humans committed under the influence of maya (as can be understood through gurbani).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj is beyond time. He is Akal Purakh. Time is an illusion and does not exist. Free will is another illusion and there is no definition of free will that is flawless. Every human being is acting as their environment pulls or pushes them too. Everything depends on something, but only Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj is independant. For some Akal Purakh has put as the recievers and some as the givers, but he has put only some get to play the game of love with him. Edgar Cayce, has a faulty logic. If Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj doesn't know how certain things will play out then he is not in the infinite or the all knower. And free will becomes the Lord as it knows more than Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. Also Akal Purakh being eternal, then there is no past or present or future for Akal Purakh. Again time is a construct of the creation and does not exist like the creation. Gurbani tells us that Shabad Guru, understands Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. The human mind is not unpredictable. One human can't understand another humans mind in totality because both are limited in their understanding. What humans can or can't do is not the benchmark for what Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj is capable of. Gurmukhs don't have free will either because free will doesn't exist for no one. Gurmukhs are under the grace of Satguru and act as Satguru tells them too. Others are under the control of the 5 vices (ego, anger, lust, greed, and/or attachment). When you are under the control of the 5 vices, then you are under the control of the creation, which Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj has subjected you too and you will die as the creation will die one day. However Satguru is beyond death and birth, so whoever is given Satguru's grace becomes one with Sri Waheguru Ji Maharaj. At his command one recieves the grace of Satguru and becomes Gurmukh. His command can't be described in totality, but as Sikhs we know bits and pieces. The more devotion and love we are given by Satguru, then more we are able to understand Sri Waheguru ji Maharaj. Beg for his mercy, meditate on his name, is the instructions of Satguru.

As per your understanding, do you feel there are souls who will never reach God for eternity?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Saying there is no free will contradicts what bani says about this. Bani says that we are responsible for our actions and that we cannot blame God. I have read this.

Anyway, in terms of if God knows what we will choose or not choose has still not been answered. I don't think any of us can really know. I still feel theres maybe things he does not know (or maybe chooses not to know, but could if he wanted to?), because if he did, then why would he let people make the wrong choices (knowing what the result is going to be).

Wouldn't he stop that from happening? I'm sure he would because he completely condemns the actions of humans committed under the influence of maya (as can be understood through gurbani).

I think we need to identify what God is. I don't think He is some guy up there looking down on us and weighing our actions on a scale to see if we get liberated or not. Liberation happens during life, according to our own efforts. That is what it means to be jivan mukht. It is to merge your essence with Akal Purakh while in this life. This is done by attaining good Karma via living in accordance with His Hukam.

To live with His Hukam is to be one with the universe (sorry for the cliche) because Waheguru created all and is within all of creation. From our cells, to the stars and galaxies. It is all Him.

We are free to choose our own actions, but it cannot be differentiated from Him because He is within us and we are a part of Him.

Then why choose to do good over bad, If it is all His doing? Society decides what is good or bad. His actions are above our judgement, laws and code of conduct. Our Gurus have given us a Dharam (Dharma), which is our path of righteousness. We are free to accept it or reject it. If we accept it, then we can call ourselves Sikhs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a great discussion about free will, and it is fascinating for an older 54 year old person like me, to see what I believe are many young intelligent Sikh youths on here, discussing this topic so passionately! I say this because in my youth(60s,70s, 80s, early 90s), there were no computers or youth samelans etc and very very few avenues where Sikh youths could so openly discuss about Sikhi. It used to be a one sided show where you go to Gurudwara and listen to parchar and never could ask questions, give your views etc. Hence, while for many of you it is normal to discuss on the internet, it is absolutely exciting for older people like me to watch you doing so and very inspiring too! All that posh words you use, the ways you express yourself make me so so proud of you haha to know in our panth in the coming generation, we have such clever people like all of you, gladdens my heart and increases my ‘josh’ for Sikhi even more! I think you should help create a website dedicated to older Sikhs like myself where we in the 50s over age group can fight and argue about Sikhi! Hahaha. That would be fun! You could call it the ‘ buddhesikhsangat.com’ hahaha.

Anyway, to come back to the discussion at hand raised by Kal Singh, I can see a constructive consensus building here, based upon many people’s rightful take of Gurbani, that this issue operates at two levels. Firstly God who is beyond time is omniscient i.e all knowing inclusive of His knowledge of past, present and future in the realms of creation, time and yugas. The contributor here ‘’Inner Gear’’ has put this in not so many words using his youthful internet abbreviations very smartly, and I wish he was my son because I respect his grasp of important gurmat concepts and the ability to express them in a very original sometimes almost unintelligable way hehe using absolutely short sentences. ‘Only five’ has then very painstakingly spelt out how God is not only the knower of all, but the Real author and Creator of all whether gurmukh or manmukh as bizaare as it sounds. This is all in accordance with many many different verses from Gurbani, too numerous to be quoted here, that God designs, creates and operates according to his masterplan better known as hukum, as ‘GuptUnknown’ put it.

At another level, within creation, as ‘Kaljugi’ summarised, such is the veil on our understanding that it appears we are playing the game when the game player is God who decides the nature and outcome of all these individual games involving each soul that are all intricately woven to be part of one huge mighty overall game . We think we are in control of our lifes, but every now and then something jolts us to realise it is all God’s mighty plan.

Going beyond that, as per se Gurbani, within creation we need to exercise responsibility and make choices that are rightful in the direction of becoming Gurmukhs and never ever excuse ourselves by shifting any blame for continuing to indulge in the tri-guna based, karmic trap of the matrix, instead of surrendering our lifes to be within the grace of God and Guru. This was highlighted by ‘Singh Sabha’.

Hence you find that Shree Guru Nanak Dev truly as a jagat- Guru , even though preaching about God as being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, spent so many many years walking to distant lands and continents to bring the blessing of Sikhi and gurmat to the world. Yes, God is in all and knows the outcome of all, and arranges all, BUT we as mere mortals whilst being mindful of that, have to focus on living a humble life in the presence of God becoming ever better gurmukhs and chiding others to do the same.

It is like two truths but one. We feel the earth beneath our feet as being still and that is a fact. We feel safe to stand, walk and run and evewrything appears to be still wherever we are. However, at another physical dimension we are moving at a rapid speed and that is an opposite fact! The earth at any one time is rotating around itself, spinning around the sun, and then as part of the solar system, is moving together with the rest of the entire family of planets of the solar system around our Milky Way galaxy, and then as part of the Milky Way galaxy it is moving in a certain direction in the known universe! So much of movement and yet under our feet it is all sssssh…. Very silent.

So in Sikhi it is similar. Some things we know and keep at the back of our mind as the real truth/Reality behind things. But then at the physical/mayic level, we focus on remembering this is dharam khand(Japjee pauree 34/35), where if we operate by dharma then we can make a start in catapulting out of the matrix to gyan khand, then saram khand, karam(grace) khand, and beyond into sachkhand, the soul’s ultimate home.

Hence it is not an either, or, kind of situation. Rather, of truth that stretches out like a rainbow into eternity and infinity. Absolutely confusing, mind blowing, thrilling and insanely magical! So unpredictably predictable!

Link to post
Share on other sites

As per your understanding, do you feel there are souls who will never reach God for eternity?

Gurbani tells us that those souls who don't follow Guru Sahib hukams will not reach for eternity. Again your dwelling on something that doesn't exist. The pleasure of birth and the pain of death is something we humans have created as factual events in a humans life. In fact we are so self absorbed that we believe we are real. Hence this question you presented here comes up. It's good you asked this question, but don't dwell on it so much. As i said before, everything is dependant on something. Your decision to by a car a house or act in a certain way is dependant on your life experience, social life, mental ability, biological make, etc. We humans are subject to many things in our environment that we don't even realize. The Buddhuist monks try to reach a state of complete nothingness, where they have no desires (so they can chose at their own will), but the act of reaching such a state is a desire in itself (Satguru calls it ego). Our minds are not free at all. We are subject to our limited thinking ability. And how do we know what level of thinking ability is suppose to be referred to as free will? Everything is relative and nothing is independant, unless we speak about Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. For Sikhs we are dependant on Saguru to reach the independant (Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj).

Keep reading Gurbani, the question will become clearer to you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wish too i was yo sun Babaji n u 2n cn giv me good englis lesson ;)

hahaha please do be my son and you can read to me Gurbanee all day! What more could I ask for hehe.

I have English young white guys and girls who know me well and call me dad(and they really mean it!), I am serious, so why not you too hehe!

The story of my life is a winding one whereby I do not have biological children but through Gur Maharaj's grace, Gurujee has given me in my personal life many who see me as a father figure with my loose (now becoming white) beard.

A Sikh must never ever be a ''tu tu meh meh '' person who differentiates between their 'own' and others. I was brought up by gurmukh parents to regard others as my own blood, never showing favouritism . As Kalgidhar Pitajee Maharaj has instructed, we have to see others as our mothers, daughters, sisters , etc with a pure heart.

On Father's Day an english white guy about 22 years old who just graduated as an engineer, texted me and said '' I know you are not my real father but you have fed me when I was hungry during my university days so I love you as my own dad'. Another similar race guy who works for the BBC nature programmes as a professional tree climber/surgeon for their Nature programmes always texts me from whichever country he is and it always starts as 'dad.......'' . So I feel very blessed to receive all this love in this life. As Sikhs we really really have to love one another as a family and we have no choice, so Khalsa Panth stays pukka united!

And as to what I commented earlier about you, wisdom and gyan can come to anyone at any age. My nephew is only 17, but he preaches Sikhism to Muslims at his school, and whoever else wants to listen to him! And gyan never needs long sentences the way i write (according to my old fashioned Angrezi) but can come in very short tiny sentences power packed as I see in your words!

Keep it up, living in the kirpa and sewa of Guru Maharaj.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
I was asking if you believe some souls are destined never (forever) to get liberated (reach sachkhand).

This is actually a very, thought provoking, deep and interesting question.

First of all, as Sikhs its never a question of ‘believe’ and opinions. A Sikh searches for the truth in all matters physical and metaphysical because a Sikh is a student of ‘sach’ or absolute truth/eternity/reality/infinity. And as Sikhs our Guru is Guru Granth Sahib whereby Gurujee teaches us the truth of all matters. Hence the relevant question is what does Gurbani teach us about the answer to your question.

According to Gurbani, everything apart from God, is a) in the hukum(within the command and order) of God, and b) moving ceaselessly and c)temporal. The implications for science behind these simple truths are insanely uncountable in the understanding of the workings of creation, starting from dark unseen matter, sub atomic particles and lesser! God creates all of creation, dissolves it and starts all over again, and this itself is a cycle involving the birth and rebirth of universes/creations, a fact pointed out in various places in SGGS. In between these cycles there are periods where only God exists by Himself. Gurujee towards the end of Japjee even says that to describe the realm of God is as arduos/difficult as eating iron!

Creation as we see it, at its root is driven by three fundamental laws or ‘gunas’ that in Gurbani are described as rajo,. tamo and satto which would have their scientific equivalents in the realms of the natural sciences. These propel creation and the universe starting from the tiniest of physical particles and even at the non physical dimensions, very much alike the engine of a car making a car work.

Within this broad general framework of the scenario of creation, souls as we call them are in a state of flux constantly attaching themselves to different physical bodies from one physical birth to another. The physical body ceases, and its elements get ‘composted’ to be recreated into other physical matter whilst souls which are metaphysical like tiny rays of God keep rebirthing in new physical entities. Within this scenario of all kinds of living things, we have the human state, and again within this human state. there are two ‘models’ i.e gurmukh and manmukh. As manmukh souls start receiving receive Guru’s grace in a particular lifetime, they start transforming from manmukhs to gurmukhs and this process can take any number of lifetimes!

It is a little like the story of the tiny arctic caterpillar you would have seen in the BBC Frozen Planet series on 2nd November a few nights ago. The tiny hairy caterpillar receives a tiny amount of sun and light for a very short period, then it hides under a rock and its heart stops beating!, and it freezes all winter till the next summer! Then it suddenly is alive again! This goes on for 12 long years and then it forms a cocoon around itself and bingo, a beautiful arctic moth flies out!

Gurujee comes in every yuga or time cycle as the Catalyst through Whom the process from manmukh to gurmukh is initiated and continued. As Gurbani says the gurmukh stage is the stage of ‘beautification’ where the long wandering soul finally merges back in its source i.e God like water meets water and the sun’s ray dissapears into the sun!

Getting a soul onto the gurmukh track is no easy matter! Staying on the gurmukh track too likewise! But through God’s grace it all happens. This is God’s long game and slowly but surely all those cosmic bubbles/souls that arose as tiny micro atmas out of the being of God at the start of creation merge back into the LIGHT as creation is wrapped up and dissolved, only to be started again.

And within the Light/God will remain eternally Gurujee, Gurbani and Gurmukhs in a way I am unable to explain or describe!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was asking if you believe some souls are destined never (forever) to get liberated (reach sachkhand).

Satguru says the following and this is what i know and believe:

AASAA, FIFTH MEHL: This human body has been given to you. This is your chance to meet the Lord of the Universe. Nothing else will work. Join the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; vibrate and meditate on the Jewel of the Naam. || 1 || Make every effort to cross over this terrifying world-ocean. You are squandering this life uselessly in the love of Maya. || 1 || Pause || ang 12

GAUREE, KABEER JEE: O Lord, my thirst for the Water of Your Name will not go away. The fire of my thirst burns even more brightly in that Water. || 1 || Pause || You are the Ocean of Water, and I am just a fish in that Water. In that Water, I remain; without that Water, I would perish. || 1 || You are the cage, and I am Your parrot. So what can the cat of death do to me? || 2 || You are the tree, and I am the bird. I am so unfortunate - I cannot see the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan! || 3 || ang 323

You are the True Guru, and I am Your new disciple. Says Kabeer, O Lord, please meet me - this is my very last chance! || 4 || 2 || ang 324

MARU, SOLAHAS, FIFTH MEHL:

ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:

The Primal, Immaculate Lord God is formless. The Detached Lord is Himself prevailing in all. He has no race or social class, no identifying mark. By the Hukam of His Will, He created the entire universe. || 1 || Out of all the 8.4 million species of beings, God blessed mankind with glory. That human who misses this chance, shall suffer the pains of coming and going in reincarnation. || 2 || What should I say, to one who has been created. The Gurmukh receives the treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord. He alone is confused, whom the Lord Himself confuses. He alone understands, whom the Lord inspires to understand. || 3 || This body has been made the village of joy and sorrow. They alone are emancipated, who seek the Sanctuary of the True Guru. One who remains untouched by the three qualities, the three gunas - such a Gurmukh is blessed with glory. || 4 || You can do anything, but whatever you do, only serves to tie your feet. The seed which is planted out of season does not sprout, and all one's capital and profits are lost. || 5 || In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises are most sublime and exalted. Become Gurmukh, chant and focus your meditation. ang 1075

You shall save yourself, and save all your generations as well. You shall go to the Court of the Lord with honor. || 6 || All the continents, nether worlds, islands and worlds - God Himself has made them all subject to death. The One Imperishable Lord Himself is unmoving and unchanging. Meditating on Him, one becomes unchanging. || 7 || The Lord's servant becomes like the Lord. Do not think that, because of his human body, he is different. The waves of the water rise up in various ways, and then the water merges again in water. || 8 || A beggar begs for charity at His Door. When God pleases, He takes pity on him. Please bless me with the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan, to satisfy my mind, O Lord. Through the Kirtan of Your Praises, my mind is held steady. || 9 || The Beauteous Lord and Master is not controlled in any way. The Lord does that which pleases the Saints of the Lord. He does whatever they wish to be done; nothing blocks their way at His Door. || 10 || Wherever the mortal is confronted with difficulty, there he should meditate on the Lord of the Universe. Where there are no children, spouse or friends, there the Lord Himself comes to the rescue. || 11 || The Great Lord and Master is inaccessible and unfathomable. How can anyone meet with God, the self-suficient One? Those who have had the noose cut away from around their necks, whom God has set back upon the Path, obtain a place in the Sangat, the Congregation. || 12 || One who realizes the Hukam of the Lord's Command is said to be His servant. He endures both bad and good equally. When egotism is silenced, then one comes to know the One Lord. Such a Gurmukh intuitively merges in the Lord. || 13 || The devotees of the Lord dwell forever in peace. With a child-like, innocent nature, they remain detached, turning away from the world. They enjoy various pleasures in many ways; God caresses them, like a father caressing his son. || 14 || He is inaccessible and unfathomable; His value cannot be estimated. We meet Him, only when He causes us to meet. The Lord is revealed to those humble Gurmukhs, who have such pre-ordained destiny inscribed upon their foreheads. || 15 || You Yourself are the Creator Lord, the Cause of causes. You created the Universe, and You support the whole earth. Servant Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of Your Door, O Lord; if it is Your Will, please preserve his honor. || 16 || 1 || 5 || ang 1076

MARU, FIRST MEHL: He Himself is the Creator Lord, the Architect of Destiny. He evaluates those whom He Himself has created. He Himself is the True Guru, and He Himself is the servant; He Himself created the Universe. || 1 || He is near at hand, not far away. The Gurmukhs understand Him; perfect are those humble beings. Associating with them night and day is profitable. This is the glorious greatness of associating with the Guru. || 2 || Throughout the ages, Your Saints are holy and sublime, O God. They sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, savoring it with their tongues. They chant His Praises, and their pain and poverty are taken away; they are not afraid of anyone else. || 3 || They remain awake and aware, and do not appear to sleep. They serve up Truth, and so save their companions and relatives. They are not stained with the filth of sinful residues; they are immaculate and pure, and remain absorbed in loving devotional worship. || 4 || O humble servants of the Lord, understand the Word of the Guru's Bani. This youth, breath and body shall pass away. O mortal, you shall die today or tomorrow; chant, and meditate on the Lord within your heart. || 5 || O mortal, abandon falsehood and your worthless ways. Death viciously kills the false beings. The faithless cynic is ruined through falsehood and his egotistical mind. ang 1025

On the path of duality, he rots away and decomposes. || 6 || Abandon slander and envy of others. Reading and studying, they burn, and do not find tranquility. Joining the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, praise the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The Lord, the Supreme Soul, shall be your helper and companion. || 7 || Abandon sexual desire, anger and wickedness. Abandon your involvement in egotistical affairs and conflicts. If you seek the Sanctuary of the True Guru, then you shall be saved. In this way you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean, O Siblings of Destiny. || 8 || In the hereafter, you shall have to cross over the fiery river of poisonous flames. No one else will be there; your soul shall be all alone. The ocean of fire spits out waves of searing flames; the self-willed manmukhs fall into it, and are roasted there. || 9 || Liberation comes from the Guru; He grants this blessing by the Pleasure of His Will. He alone knows the way, who obtains it. So ask one who has obtained it, O Siblings of Destiny. Serve the True Guru, and find peace. || 10 || Without the Guru, he dies entangled in sin and corruption. The Messenger of Death smashes his head and humiliates him. The slanderous person is not freed of his bonds; he is drowned, slandering others. || 11 || So speak the Truth, and realize the Lord deep within. He is not far away; look, and see Him. No obstacles shall block your way; become Gurmukh, and cross over to the other side. This is the way to cross over the terrifying world-ocean. || 12 || The Naam, the Name of the Lord, abides deep within the body. The Creator Lord is eternal and imperishable. The soul does not die, and it cannot be killed; God creates and watches over all. Through the Word of the Shabad, His Will is manifest. || 13 || He is immaculate, and has no darkness. The True Lord Himself sits upon His throne. The faithless cynics are bound and gagged, and forced to wander in reincarnation. They die, and are reborn, and continue coming and going. || 14 || The Guru's servants are the Beloveds of the True Guru. Contemplating the Shabad, they sit upon His throne. They realize the essence of reality, and know the state of their inner being. This is the true glorious greatness of those who join the Sat Sangat. || 15 || He Himself saves His humble servant, and saves his ancestors as well. His companions are liberated; He carries them across. Nanak is the servant and slave of that Gurmukh who lovingly focuses his consciousness on the Lord. || 16 || 6 || ang 1026

MAAJH, FIFTH MEHL: Who is liberated, and who is united? Who is a spiritual teacher, and who is a preacher? Who is a house-holder, and who is a renunciate? Who can estimate the Lord's Value? || 1 || How is one bound, and how is one freed of his bonds? How can one escape from the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation? Who is subject to karma, and who is beyond karma? Who chants the Name, and inspires others to chant it? || 2 || Who is happy, and who is sad? Who, as sunmukh, turns toward the Guru, and who, as vaymukh, turns away from the Guru? How can one meet the Lord? How is one separated from Him? Who can reveal the way to me? || 3 || What is that Word, by which the wandering mind can be restrained? What are those teachings, by which we may endure pain and pleasure alike? What is that lifestyle, by which we may come to meditate on the Supreme Lord? How may we sing the Kirtan of His Praises? || 4 || The Gurmukh is liberated, and the Gurmukh is linked. The Gurmukh is the spiritual teacher, and the Gurmukh is the preacher. Blessed is the Gurmukh, the householder and the renunciate. The Gurmukh knows the Lord's Value. || 5 || Egotism is bondage; as Gurmukh, one is emancipated. The Gurmukh escapes the cycle of coming and going in reincarnation. The Gurmukh performs actions of good karma, and the Gurmukh is beyond karma. Whatever the Gurmukh does, is done in good faith. || 6 || The Gurmukh is happy, while the self-willed manmukh is sad. The Gurmukh turns toward the Guru, and the self-willed manmukh turns away from the Guru. The Gurmukh is united with the Lord, while the manmukh is separated from Him. The Gurmukh reveals the way. || 7 || The Guru's Instruction is the Word, by which the wandering mind is restrained. Through the Guru's Teachings, we can endure pain and pleasure alike. To live as Gurmukh is the lifestyle by which we come to meditate on the Supreme Lord. The Gurmukh sings the Kirtan of His Praises. || 8 || The Lord Himself created the entire creation. He Himself acts, and causes others to act. He Himself establishes. From oneness, He has brought forth the countless multitudes. O Nanak, they shall merge into the One once again. || 9 || 2 || 36 || ang 131

Bhagat Kabeer ji Maharaj has made it very clear that this is the last chance to meet Maharaj. The instructions to achieve this last chance to meet Maharaj are very clear in the above shabads as well. I have no desire to condemn another to eternal death or to say eventually a soul will merge into Maharaj by going through many cycles of birth and death. Maharaj does as he pleases. If a person wishes to wait for another human life to meet Maharaj, then its their decision in the sense of speaking in ego, but this is the chance to meet Maharaj. The creation is destoryed, but the soul is either united with Maharaj or Maharaj throws it around in the pit of hell over and over again.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use