Dasam Granth?

[GamerSingh 16]

'Chaubis Avtar', and more specifically, the story of the 24th avtar is confusing me alot.

The katha of the kalki avtar mentions things such as '

The Brahmin-women will live with Shudras; the Vaishya-women will reside in the homes of Kshatriyas and the Kshatriya-women in the homes of Vaishyas; the Shudra-women will be in the homes of Brahmins.16.

This line would suggest that inter caste marriages are sinful, and their are many other lines such as this.

It makes me wonder about the authenticity of Chaubis avtar. Now, im not a supporter of the people and Jeonwala and Darshan lal, and I am sure he nitnem banis and other banis in the Dasam Granth sahib are authentic, im just wondering if chaubis avtar might not be authentic or if the translation is wrong or something else.

[KhalistaniGunMan 291]

'Chaubis Avtar', and more specifically, the story of the 24th avtar is confusing me alot.

The katha of the kalki avtar mentions things such as '

The Brahmin-women will live with Shudras; the Vaishya-women will reside in the homes of Kshatriyas and the Kshatriya-women in the homes of Vaishyas; the Shudra-women will be in the homes of Brahmins.16.

This line would suggest that inter caste marriages are sinful, and their are many other lines such as this.

It makes me wonder about the authenticity of Chaubis avtar. Now, im not a supporter of the people and Jeonwala and Darshan lal, and I am sure he nitnem banis and other banis in the Dasam Granth sahib are authentic, im just wondering if chaubis avtar might not be authentic or if the translation is wrong or something else.

Where does it say its sinful?...it says that kalki avtar will come when the tribes, races, relgions mix etc ....

[ladli-fauj 283]

whats wrong with the line ? its talking about the events of which happen before chaubis avtar is described in the baani, where do you see it as probably not authentic ? it describes what happens in society did not all our gurus talk about whats happening in society, its not saying its good or bad but what people follow and how people become followers of many faiths and mix in society.

[ladli-fauj 283]

also in krishna avtar guru ji even mentions the intent of narrating that epic. “I have no other intent (in narrating the epic) but to instill the spirit of war for righteousness. this is also a narration/description of events

[Only five 1,122]

'Chaubis Avtar', and more specifically, the story of the 24th avtar is confusing me alot.

The katha of the kalki avtar mentions things such as '

The Brahmin-women will live with Shudras; the Vaishya-women will reside in the homes of Kshatriyas and the Kshatriya-women in the homes of Vaishyas; the Shudra-women will be in the homes of Brahmins.16.

This line would suggest that inter caste marriages are sinful, and their are many other lines such as this.

It makes me wonder about the authenticity of Chaubis avtar. Now, im not a supporter of the people and Jeonwala and Darshan lal, and I am sure he nitnem banis and other banis in the Dasam Granth sahib are authentic, im just wondering if chaubis avtar might not be authentic or if the translation is wrong or something else.

Read the Bani before this line and read the Bani after this line. Then think about what Maharaj is saying. When you cut Bani like this, then many things that make complete sense will be regarded as anti-gurmat. The Darshan Ragi team does this to Gurbani to make people think a certain way. When Gurmukhs do veechar, they speak about the whole shabad and then speak about a certain tuk they want to stress. This way the tuk is kept in context.

I am not blaming you of anything, just telling you to be careful, when you try to understand Gurbani.

[JSinghnz 1,086]

Read the Bani before this line and read the Bani after this line. Then think about what Maharaj is saying. When you cut Bani like this, then many things that make complete sense will be regarded as anti-gurmat. The Darshan Ragi team does this to Gurbani to make people think a certain way. When Gurmukhs do veechar, they speak about the whole shabad and then speak about a certain tuk they want to stress. This way the tuk is kept in context.

I am not blaming you of anything, just telling you to be careful, when you try to understand Gurbani.

Can you please explain this Bani in its whole context and enlighten the Sangat.

[SikhSpectrum 74]

ਦੋਹਰਾ ||

Dohraa||

DOHRA

ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਘਰ ਘਰ ਮਤੋ ਏਕ ਨ ਚਲਿ ਹੈ ਕੋਇ || ਪਾਪ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਜਹ ਤਹ ਭਯੋ ਧਰਮ ਨ ਕਤਹੂੰ ਹੋਇ || ੯||

Bhinn bhinn ghar ghar mato ek na chal(i) bai koe|| Paap prachur jah tab bhayo dbaram ma kat-hoon hoe||9||

There will be different beliefs in every home; no one will follow only one belief; there will be a great increase in the propagation of sin and there will be no dharma (piety) anywhere.9.

ਚੇੰਪਈ ||

Chaupaee

CHAUPAI

ਸ਼ੰਕਰ ਬਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਹੋਈ || ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਜਗਤ ਨ ਦੇਖੀਐ ਕੋਈ || ਏਕ ਏਕ ਐਸੇ ਮਤ ਕੈ ਹੈ || ਜਾ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਸੂਦ੍ਰਤਾ ਹੈੂੁ ਹੈ || ੧੦||

Shankar baran prajaa sabh hoi|| Chhatrijagat na dekheeai koee|| Ek ek aise mat kai hai|| Jaa te praapat soodrataa hvai hai||10||

The subjects will become hybrid and no Kshatriya will be seen in the whole world; all will do such things that they will all become Shudras.10.

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਮਤ ਦੁਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਹਰਿ ਕਰ || ਚਲਿ ਹੈ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਮਤ ਘਰ ਘਰ || ਏਕ ਏਕ ਕੇ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਨ ਗਹਿ ਹੈ || ਏਕ ਏਕ ਕੇ ਸੰਗ ਨ ਰਹਿ ਹੈ || ੧੧||

Hindu Turak mat duhnoo prahar(i) kar|| Chal(i) bai bhinn bhinn mat ghar ghar|| Ek ek ke mantra no gaih hai|| Ek ek ke sang na rah(i) bai||11||

Hinduism and Islam will be relinquished and in every home there will be diverse beliefs; no one will listen to the ideas of another one; on one will remain with anyone.11.

ਆਪ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਹੈ ਹੈ || ਨੀਚ ਊਚ ਕਹ ਸੀਸ ਨ ਨੈ ਹੈ || ਏਕ ਏਕ ਮਤ ਇਕ ਇਕ ਧਾਮਾ || ਘਰ ਘਰ ਹੋਇ ਬੈਠ ਹੈ ਰਾਮਾ || ੧੨||

aap aap paarbrahm kahai hai|| Neech ooch kah sees na nai bai|| Ek ek mat ik ik dhaamaa|| Ghar ghar hoe baith hai Raamaa||12||

All will proclaim themselves as Lord and no younger one will bow before the elder one; in every house will be born such people who will declare themselves as Ram.12.

ਪੜਿ ਹੈ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਭੂਲ ਪੁਰਾਨਾ || ਕੋਊ ਨ ਪਕਰ ਹੈ ਪਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨਾ || ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਜਵਨ ਕਰਿ ਲਹਿ ਹੈ || ਤਾਕਹ ਗੋਬਰਾਗਨ ਮੋ ਦਹਿ ਹੈ || ੧੩||

Pa?(i) hai koina bhool puraanaa|| Kooo na pakar hai paan Kuraanaa|| Bed Kateb javan kar(i) lah(i) hai|| Taakah goharaagan mo dah(i)||13||

No one will study Puranas even by mistake and will not catch the holy Quran in his hand; he, who will catch the Vedas and Katebs, he will be killed by burning him in the fire of cowdung.13.

ਚਲੀ ਪਾਪ ਕੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਨੀ || ਭਾਜਾ ਧਰਮ ਛਾਡ ਰਜਧਾਨੀ || ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਘਰ ਘਰ ਮਤ ਚਲਾ || ਯਾ ਤੇ ਧਰਮ ਭਰਮ ਉਡ ਟਲਾ || ੧੪||

Chalipaap ki jagat kaahanee|| Bhaajaa dharam chhaad rajdhaanee|| Bhinn bhinn ghar ghar mat chalaa|| Yaa te dharam bharam ud talaa||14||

The story of sin will become prevalent in the whole world and the dharma will flee from the hearts of the people; there will be different beliefs in homes which cause the dharma and love to fly away.14.

ਏਕ ਏਕ ਮਤ ਐਸਉ ਚੈਹੈ || ਜਾਤੇ ਸਕਲ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਹੁਇ ਜੈਹੈ || ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਈ || ਸ਼ੰਕਰ ਬਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਹੋਈ || ੧੫||

Ek ek mat aisau chaihai|| Jaate sakal soodra hue jaihai|| Chhatri brahman rabaa na koee|| Shankar baran prajaa sabh hoi||15||

Such notions will become prevalent that all will become Shudras; there will be no Kshatriyas and Brahmins and all the subjects will become hybrid.15.

ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਬਸਿ ਹੈਂ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨੀ || ਬਈਸ ਨਾਰ ਹੋਇ ਹੈ ਛ੍ਨਤ੍ਰਨੀ || ਬਸਿ ਹੈ ਛ੍ਨਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਬੈਸਾਨੀ || ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ੍ਰਾਨੀ || ੧੬||

Soodra dhaam bas(i) bain brahmanee|| Baees naar hoe hai chhattranee|| Bas(i) hai chhattra dhaam baisaani|| Brahman grah(i) istri soodraanee||16||

The Brahmin-women will live with Shudras; the Vaishya-women will reside in the homes of Kshatriyas and the Kshatriya-women in the homes of Vaishyas; the Shudra-women will be in the homes of Brahmins.16.

ਏਕ ਧਰਮ ਪਰ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਨ ਚਲ ਹੈ || ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਦੋਊ ਮਤ ਦਲ ਹੈ || ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਮਤ ਘਰ ਘਰ ਹੋਈ || ਏਕ ਪੈਂਡ ਚਲਹੈ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ || ੧੭||

Ek dharam par prajaa na chal hai|| Bed Kateb dooo mat dal hai || Bhinn bhinn mat ghar ghat hoi|| Ek pain? chal-hai nahi koi||17||

The subjects will not follow only one religion, and there will be disobedience to both the scriptures of Hinduism and Semitic religion; various religions will be prevelant in various homes and none will follow the one and the same path.17.

ਗੀਤਾ ਮਾਲਤੀ ਛੰਦ ||

Gitaa MaaltiChhand

GITA MALTI STANZA

ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਮਤੋ ਘਰੋ ਘਰ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਚਲਾਇ ਹੈ || ਐਂਡ ਬੈਂਡ ਫਿਰੈ ਸਭੈ ਸਿਰ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਨ ਨਯਾਇ ਹੈ ||

Bhinn bhinn mato gharo ghar ek ek chalaae hai|| Ain? bain? phirai sabhai sir ek ek na nyaae hai||

When various religions will prevail in every home and all will walk in their pride and none of them will bow before any other;

ਪੁਨ ਅਉਰ ਅਉਰ ਨਏ ਨਏ ਮਤ ਮਾਸ ਮਾਸ ਉਚਾਂਹਿਗੇ || ਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਰਨ ਪੀਰ ਕੇੰ ਨਹੀ ਭੂਲ ਪੂਜਨ ਜਾਂਹਿਗੇ || ੧੮||

Pun aur aur nae nae mat maas maas uchaahenge|| Dev pitran peer kau nahi bhul poojan jaabenge||18||

There will be the birth of new religions every year and the people even by mistake will not worship gods, manes and pirs.18.

[GPS 1,309]

Guru sahib writes in krishna avtar

ਦਸਮ ਕਥਾ ਭਾਗਉਤ ਕੀ ਭਾਖਾ ਕਰੀ ਬਨਾਇ ॥ ਅਵਰ ਬਾਸਨਾ ਨਾਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਧਰਮ ਜੁੱਧ ਕੇ ਚਾਇ ॥੨੪੯੧॥

दसम कथा भागउत की भाखा करी बनाइ ॥ अवर बासना नाहि प्रभ धरम जु्ध के चाइ ॥२४९१॥

I have composed the discourse of the tenth part (Skandh) of Bhagavat in the vernacular; O Lord ! I have no other desire and have only the zeal for the war fought on the basis of righteousness.2491

So aim of Guru sahib was not to promote these avtars but instil a

spirit of bir rass among his followers.

I am sure none of the opponents has read Dasam Granth at all. They

seem to get some lines out of context from their masters and then

spread misinformation. There is noting in Dasam gRanth THAT MAKES

it a suspect scritpure. Everything is per gurmat.

[chatanga 1,058]

Guru Ji is not critical of inter-caste marriages. The understanding to this is that Guru Ji is telling is that all people willwaver from their religious paths to extremes, such as Brahmans residing with shudranees. They will lose all understanding of dharma.

[VanHelsingh 1,976]

Guru Ji is not critical of inter-caste marriages. The understanding to this is that Guru Ji is telling is that all people willwaver from their religious paths to extremes, such as Brahmans residing with shudranees. They will lose all understanding of dharma.

I suppose anti-Dasam Granth people use this as way of highlighting that how could Guru Ji complain about inter-caste relationships when Sikhi itself was formed to eradicate the caste system (amongst other equally vital objectives of course)?

[GamerSingh 16]

Guru Ji is not critical of inter-caste marriages. The understanding to this is that Guru Ji is telling is that all people willwaver from their religious paths to extremes, such as Brahmans residing with shudranees. They will lose all understanding of dharma.

Ok, so basically your saying that people will waver from the Hindu religion by taking part in intercaste marriages (which are against Hindu religion, im assuming), if Im wrong please explain.

Where does it say its sinful?...it says that kalki avtar will come when the tribes, races, relgions mix etc ....

I only assumed it was mentioned as being something sinful since the tuks preceding this one were talking about dharma being lost, story of sin being prevalent, etc...and all this would result in kalki coming onto the earth, I guess another explanation could be that Guru sahib was narrating the stories as the Hindus told them?

[GPS 1,309]

I suppose anti-Dasam Granth people use this as way of highlighting that how could Guru Ji complain about inter-caste relationships when Sikhi itself was formed to eradicate the caste system (amongst other equally vital objectives of course)?

They have not read Dasam Granth at all. taking one line out of contexrt

is foolishness. This is called propaganda.Do not they know that Guru sahib

has written a long mangla charan in the beginning of Chaubis avtar. That

shows Guru ji's views.

[GPS 1,309]

Ok, so basically your saying that people will waver from the Hindu religion by taking part in intercaste marriages (which are against Hindu religion, im assuming), if Im wrong please explain.

It says that society will lose its moorings and traditions and

there will be upheaval in social structure.

[chatanga 1,058]

Ok, so basically your saying that people will waver from the Hindu religion by taking part in intercaste marriages (which are against Hindu religion, im assuming), if Im wrong please explain.

Brahmans never used to let the shadow of low-castes fall on them as they would beleive they would get polluted, as per Manu Simrtis, but in Kal Yug, Guru Ji says they forget this and keep lowcastes as their wives. Basically Guru Ji is saying the people who were firm in their religious principles, will compromise them, and go in the opposite direction ie 180* turn.

I suppose anti-Dasam Granth people use this as way of highlighting that how could Guru Ji complain about inter-caste relationships when Sikhi itself was formed to eradicate the caste system (amongst other equally vital objectives of course)?

Guru Ji never fought to eradicate the caste system, but to bring all castes as equals in their journey to Waheguru. Guru's gave us the best most pristine example of spiritual and grishti living, sewa, sacrifice, gurmat sangeet, and poetry, etc, why didn't any Guru marry out of their own caste to set an example?

[VanHelsingh 1,976]

Guru Ji never fought to eradicate the caste system, but to bring all castes as equals in their journey to Waheguru...

No? Well I suppose that's why Sikhs of all castes cling onto the caste system.

I think what you've posted above is an extremely fine (as in razor-like) distinction that goes over the head of most Sikhs --- me included.