Amritdharis and non-amritdharis.

[N30S1NGH]

Also just to add mehtab singh excellent post-

There is giving head externally (first step) than there is giving head internally (who only few gives- making effort in bhagti/not indluge in 5 chors- kaam krod, moh, lob, ahankar) to guru maharaj.

- Lot of non amritdharis not all (as there are exceptional cases) but lot of non amritdharis look for short cuts in dharam and start try to jump to higher stages without having their basic foundation strong (i.e- taking amrit-admission to school/keeping rehit and slowly moving on to other stages in sikhi).

- Lot of amritdharis not all (always exceptional cases) but lot of amritdharis spent most of their precious life living amritdhari as superficially/hypocritically being stuck and wrapping their head around first- shariat layer of sikhi so much so that they forget all higher stages in the sikhi- tariqat, marfat and hakikat. I.E - if one in marfat stage, rituals in shariat should appear seamless and natural to them so much so not even one second or breath is spent pondering over the rituals in shariat layer because focus is actually on the study now.

[Mehtab Singh]

There was a bhenji I knew who had committed transgression after taking Amrit, and wanted to get back to the Khalsa lifestyle. Every now and then she would pinpoint some Singhnee and say "Veere, see she does her eyebows...see she lies all the time". I always told her "Why do you always hunt for the bad examples? Have you ever come across a proper Rehitvaan Bibi?" Then one day I showed her pics of Bibis who had excessive facial hair, and asked her "Why can't you have these Bibiya as your role models?" The bhenji had no answer.

My request to our abhilakhi and non-Amritdhari brothers and sisters...

Please don't try to find faults in the comments and attitudes you face at the hands of Amritdharis. Nothing will justify any reason to NOT take Amrit. It is Guru Sahib's Hukam, it is Guru Sahib's Rehit, and thats it, thats what it is. If you find someone rude or disrespectful, well, thats just that person, its not part of the Rehit to be that way. So please stop finding any reason or even excuse to put down the Khalsa way of life just because some Amritdhari was mean to you. I am sure you guys are way smarter than that, but just wanted to get it across.

The "Amritdharis" on this forum (and that includes me as well) may or may not be the best role models for you guys. Don't go after them and attempt to decide not to take Amrit just by thinking "Seeee!!! he/she is so much hankaari, I don't want to be like them!!!!". If you feel they are hankaari, I urge you to please take Amrit and turn around and teach the lesson of nimarta to those you perceive as arrogant. As they say, be the change you want to see.

[rrss]

I believe there is no 'right' or 'wrong' party to this issue. In my experience, both Amritdharis and non-Amritdharis have misconceptions about what Sikhi is, not just relating to Kirpan, and these things cause conflict and a bad name to the Amritdari community. Other issues, include whether kakkars and rehat are rituals, Spiritual Guru ji vs Practical dasam granth, supporting peace or condone extremism and even our Guru vs Babas/offshoot groups.

I say this as a person who is hopefully about to take Amrit at the next available opportunity and who has shifted his position from anti to pro kirpan. Having moved from being a 'Mona' through from 'Keshdari' to Gursikh and hopefully Amridhari, I have seen it from the eyes of all major groups.

The problems lie in not understanding core Sikhi theology of God-realisation (e.g. God, Guru, Naam) and escaping from Maya (E.g. vices, virtues and sins) as per our Guru, Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Other things are important however they are not the absolute core of Sikhi, indeed all other aspects of Sikhi are tools, techniques, methods in order to escape from and deal with the consequences of, Maya.

1. On Amrit: At the core of Amrit is being baptised as a Sikh and receiving Guru's blessings which instils naam and break from cycle of birth and death. That is the core spiritual purpose of it. It additionally also articulates a Gursikh lifestyle to enable one to break from the clutches of and to deal with the consequences of Maya. Amritdharis, Sehardaris, Keshdaris, other groups, all need to understand that in order to realise God, the accepted method is to be initiated by a Guru, which in our case is through Punj Piare to enable Guru Ji, Guru Granth Sahib ji to give us the divine knowledge and blessing needed to realise God (there are rare documented cases of sants directly appealing through meditation for naam to be instilled in someone).

2. On Sikhism and Guru vs non Sikhs and other "Gurus": There are other methods to reach God. Guru Nanak recognised this. Sikhi is not a religion which converts people by force. The spirituality appeals on its own and with God's grace, people opt for the Sikh path. None of us ordinary people are Gurus. We have no power or capacity to determine who is or isn't a Guru. Hatred and violence towards other groups which have their own self-proclaimed Gurus are unacceptable and anti-Sikhi. If they abuse us, so be it, their souls will repent for their actions. We are not religious police who need to impose our Guru on other people. If they are happy and peaceful, what is the problem? If they want to abuse us, so be it. It only becomes a problem when others persecute to the point of mass genocide which threatens survival of Sikhism itself or of swathes of innocent people (see below). Our purpose in life is to realise God, not to make other people realise god in the way you think is best, so go get on with it and hopefully leave this physical body as Guruji intends. How this relates to Amritdharis: Too many Amritdharis are extremist in their views on other Sikhi inspired groups, other religions and even other Amritdharis who they see as inferior. Non Amritdharis see this as Amritdharis going against teachings of Guruji and being violent.

3. On keeping a strict rehat and kakkars being rituals/ritualistic objects: We need to recognise that apart from those specific guidelines and orders given by Guru Granth Sahib Ji, everything else ARE RITUALS. Amritdharis should recognise that non Gurbani rehat and kakkas are rituals, however they are rituals with a purpose. The whole point of a ritual is that practising it in itself does not lead to God realisation. Like where fasting and wearing red threat on it's own do not lead to God realisation, if doing these things makes you live a pious life and remind you of your need to control vices etc, then they have served their purpose. They are nevertheless rituals. A sant may decide not to wear kirpan, it won't make a hoot of a difference because it is a practical tool to help rein in MAYA. See below for kirpan in particular. 99.9% of Siks however are not sants, they are strongly recommended to wear kakkars and follow rehat. Too many Amritdharis are too attached to their kakkars. They pine and cry when they are separated from their body. That's fine. However how many of these Amritdharis cry when they haven't had a good meditative experience or have failed to realise God? Non Amridaris then perceive this as Amridharis being hypocritical- preaching God and naam on the one hand and yet being brought to tears not by not reaching God, but by losing the tools that are meant to help us reach God. It seems on Mahapuraks and Sants yearn for naam (Gurbani states that we should all be yearning so badly for God/naam to the point where it consumes us completely and all wordly desires and attachments are forgotten).

On Kirpan and violence: All Kakkas (apart from hair, which is not an object and is a core theology issue- indeed I am in the keski kakkar camp) are to control or manage the consequences of Maya, inclding Kirpan. Guru ji tells us very clearly that violence is Maya. It tells us specifically that Gurmukhs are nirvair. The reason why conflict, differences, problems etc exist in society which need some sort of force to control is purely because of our own actions, they are a consequence of Maya. If we need to use force, it is only to have to deal with the consequences of Maya in existing society largely owning to misdeeds of civilisations in the past few thousands of years. I have written in more detail on violence here. The kirpan is as symbolic as it is a practical tool- to be righteous. We all agree that it's not an offensive weapon. We also all agree on SANT-sipahi. However many Amritdharis forget this and project themselves as warriors or tough guys. They see the kirpan and other shastars as being weapons to be used in just about any conflict situation (Violence is a last resort). Some even practice martial arts to perfection, but how many practice meditation to perfection? There is nothing special about being a Sant. Each and every Gursikh is meant to be a Sant. And if Sants are willing by the Guru to use kirpan to protect the weak and innocent or to prevent Sikhism from being wiped out, then they are compelled to do so, against their better judgement that violence is wrong, and fearing the karma of their actions, because of divine intervention by the Guru to his Sant Servants. There is plenty of evidence that in the mughal era, most Gursikhs were very very highly spiritual. How many Amritdharis reach high meditative states today? Again non-Amritdharis perceive this as more reasons for not needing to take Amrit or perceving Amridharis as hypocrites. It also alienates those who are interested in Sikhi and taking Amrit but are do not want to engage in violence.

On extremism and violence: As I have explained above Guru Granth Sahib ji deplores violence and hatred, and in particular, enmity (vair). Why do people praise actions of vengeance? Vengeance by definition stems from enmity and it is NOT ALLOWED, FULL STOP. Again this alienates the more peace loving Sikhs, who vye for peaceful solutions to conflict. It also encourages spin off groups like Namdharis, who wear symbolic kirpans in their dastaar (and then Sikhs begin to HATE such people, which is NOT ALLOWED). A great many Amritdharis also condone extremist ideologies.

So as someone else has said before, non-Amritdharis don't have the full picture, they are in the dark. However most Amritdharis are not projecting the right image of Sikhi to other groups, so what can they expect?

One word summises this debate: Maya. Please if you take one thing from this post, let it be this. Disengage from Maya and refer to Guruji for advice.

Bhul chuk maaf karna.

PS. I won't be monitoring this thread or replying. If I have made mistakes, please forgive me, however people do unnessarily pick arguments on this forum. I have made my point and am going underground.

[simran345]

@RAjkarekakhalsa penji, thats ok, but I only replied back to the way u wrote ur comment, so if it hurt u then u will realise thats how it may have hurt somebody else. Its just the way it was written which sounds very judgemental. I am not putting the khalsa way down in any way@Mehtab Singh, I have full respect towards amritdharis, as its not easy being one. But I have experienced those that call themselves amritdhari and just because they look amritdhari on top, inside they are not all that they are suppose to be, and that is very nasty people, who didnt care about nobody if they lived or died, or if they intentionally hurt them, as long as they got what they want.

But that still has not stopped me from looking towards the amritdhari way of life. Its very hard to be an amritdhari, as N30Singh paji says, there are the hypocritical ones, if i talk about them it does not mean I am putting down all amritdharis. Otherwise I could take amrit too and did want to and to think about taking it. but i feel i do not know about sikhi as i am new to it, and would only be taking it thinking that god will make me better, and that would th only excuse i would be takin it. I dont want to do that by giving god a dhoka, or doing only for my matlab.

sorryji if i hurt u penji or anybody else.

[VanHelsingh]

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!!!! :strong:

[MrDoaba]

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!!!! :strong:

I would but im not sure with Jathebandis amrit is better! :confused:

[Mehtab Singh]

I would but im not sure with Jathebandis amrit is better! :confused:

LOL! Here we go again! :D Veer Amrit is Amrit fullstop! :D Lets not cause any more friction than there already is

[MrDoaba]

/\ /\ which Jathebandi

Oh and just so you know im joking before im attacked!

[Mehtab Singh]

LOL, so you did see it coming! :D

[N30S1NGH]

I think overall on this thread we are seeing a productive discussion and mutual understanding and respect from both sides. Gosh soo many great ideas from amritdharis and non amritdharis alike, guys make me jathedar..lol ..i will try to bring everyone closer .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol2: :lol2: :respect: :respect: :respect: