The origin of 5 Kakaars

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

GurdeepSinghJohal (Jadiala pind ??) is absolutely correct.

How come u know about(Jadiala pind)

By the way its not my pind. :biggrin2:

[Jonny101]

There are too many shabads that mention nark or hell !

Like I said you have to look at them individually to see what the 'core' message of the shabad is.

If it is along the lines that they shall all rot in hell if they don't take the name of the Lord..etc...etc...- then this is not talking about hell literally. It is talking about what you experience in a so called hell- which is pain and suffereing for an eternal amount of time!

Remember Heaven and Hell concepts come from abrahamic religions, jews,christian,islam...

Sikhism talks about the hell of chaurasi lak joon, and having rebirth again and again until after 84 lak births you get a chance to attain mukhti once again in the human form.

This is where we are now, and we should make the most of it so that we can be with MERGED with Akaal Purakh for eternity.

Yes it is perfectly fine to call this place heaven or sachkhand, because it is the ultimate achievement.

As you said there are many tukhs all over our scriptures mentioning Narak. If you can please present one or two so I would like to see if it is a proper metaphor or not. Because a metaphor is something specific, it has a meaning a purpose. We cannot say something is a metaphor because it does not fit into our beliefs.

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

As you said there are many tukhs all over our scriptures mentioning Narak. If you can please present one or two so I would like to see if it is a proper metaphor or not. Because a metaphor is something specific, it has a meaning a purpose. We cannot say something is a metaphor because it does not fit into our beliefs.

Please check this pg70 Sriraag Mahala 5

These are 2 tuks of shabad not entire shabad you can read entire shabad

ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਚਾਰਿ ਮੁਖਾਗਰ ਬਿਚਰੇ ॥

Saasath Sinmrith Baedh Chaar Mukhaagar Bicharae ||

People may recite by heart the Shaastras, the Simritees and the four Vedas;

ਤਪੇ ਤਪੀਸਰ ਜੋਗੀਆ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰੇ ॥

Thapae Thapeesar Jogeeaa Theerathh Gavan Karae ||

They may be ascetics, great, self-disciplined Yogis; they may visit sacred shrines of pilgrimage

ਖਟੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਤੇ ਦੁਗੁਣੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਨਾਇ ॥

Khatt Karamaa Thae Dhugunae Poojaa Karathaa Naae ||

And perform the six ceremonial rituals, over and over again, performing worship services and ritual bathings.

ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਲਗੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਤਾ ਸਰਪਰ ਨਰਕੇ ਜਾਇ ॥੫॥

Rang N Lagee Paarabreham Thaa Sarapar Narakae Jaae ||5||

Even so, if they have not embraced love for the Supreme Lord God, then they shall surely go to hell. ||5||

ਰਾਜ ਮਿਲਕ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀਆ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥

Raaj Milak Sikadhaareeaa Ras Bhogan Bisathhaar ||

You may possess empires, vast estates, authority over others, and the enjoyment of myriads of pleasures;

ਬਾਗ ਸੁਹਾਵੇ ਸੋਹਣੇ ਚਲੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਅਫਾਰ ॥

Baag Suhaavae Sohanae Chalai Hukam Afaar ||

You may have delightful and beautiful gardens, and issue unquestioned commands;

ਰੰਗ ਤਮਾਸੇ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧੀ ਚਾਇ ਲਗਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥

Rang Thamaasae Bahu Bidhhee Chaae Lag Rehiaa ||

You may have enjoyments and entertainments of all sorts and kinds, and continue to enjoy exciting pleasures

ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਾ ਸਰਪ ਕੀ ਜੂਨਿ ਗਇਆ ॥੬॥

Chith N Aaeiou Paarabreham Thaa Sarap Kee Joon Gaeiaa ||6||

-and yet, if you do not come to remember the Supreme Lord God, you shall be reincarnated as a snake. ||6||

[savinderpalsingh]

going back to , stupid question

why do you think bhagats bani is not valueable ?

then why did our guru's put thier bani in huge numbers in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

word uttered with pain from a bhagats mouth to meet his creater , is also bani

[luckysingh99]

going back to , stupid question

why do you think bhagats bani is not valueable ?

then why did our guru's put thier bani in huge numbers in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji?

word uttered with pain from a bhagats mouth to meet his creater , is also bani

The 'key' to all bani picked and chosen by Guru Angad Dev ji is what was gurmat and in align with Guru Nanak ji.

I will give you a little example of say Bhagat Jaidev Ji's bani which we discussed a while back in another thread-

Now, Guru Angad Dev ji starting to compile the Adi Granth starting with the pothis and collections of Guru Nanak Dev ji at first.

Now, Guru Nanak Dev ji had been to Bhagat Jaidev's pind and collected alot of his work and including some in his pothis.

However, Guru Angad Dev ji only found 2 shabads that were 'gurmat' enough to include with the rest of gurbani.

These 2 were then rightfully included.

On the other hand, we have Bhagat Kabeer ji who has so many other writings and literature that you can find under sufi material anid books, that were NOT included in gurbani. I'm not saying these other works are no good or up to scratch, but Guruji did not find them 'gurmat' enough to include them.

I mean Bhagat Kabeer ji has his own following of ''Kabirpanthis' that go by all his literature and poetry, but as sikhs we are not kabirpanthis but only follow what was included as Gurbani by our Gurus.

The bani given to us by our Gurus, whether it was their own or from other bhagats, is what makes Guru's Bani.

''Bani Guru, Guru hai bani''

When we have had sikhs walking away from the real gurbani and focusing on the core of a particular Bhagat only, but still claiming to be sikhs, is when problems arise. This is an example of some who decide to become Bhagat Ravidassi followers and then set up ''SIKH' institutions that are centered on only that Bhagat.

This goes away from the real core of gurbani and sikhism.

[JSinghnz]

This user is a prime example of what is wrong with "Sikhs" today. I'm not even going to elaborate why. Read bani and understand it don't add your own mirch masalay.

It is not CORRECT to call such mirch masaley users Sikhs.

[Jonny101]

Please check this pg70 Sriraag Mahala 5

These are 2 tuks of shabad not entire shabad you can read entire shabad

ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਚਾਰਿ ਮੁਖਾਗਰ ਬਿਚਰੇ ॥

Saasath Sinmrith Baedh Chaar Mukhaagar Bicharae ||

People may recite by heart the Shaastras, the Simritees and the four Vedas;

ਤਪੇ ਤਪੀਸਰ ਜੋਗੀਆ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰੇ ॥

Thapae Thapeesar Jogeeaa Theerathh Gavan Karae ||

They may be ascetics, great, self-disciplined Yogis; they may visit sacred shrines of pilgrimage

ਖਟੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਤੇ ਦੁਗੁਣੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਨਾਇ ॥

Khatt Karamaa Thae Dhugunae Poojaa Karathaa Naae ||

And perform the six ceremonial rituals, over and over again, performing worship services and ritual bathings.

ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਲਗੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਤਾ ਸਰਪਰ ਨਰਕੇ ਜਾਇ ॥੫॥

Rang N Lagee Paarabreham Thaa Sarapar Narakae Jaae ||5||

Even so, if they have not embraced love for the Supreme Lord God, then they shall surely go to hell. ||5||

ਰਾਜ ਮਿਲਕ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀਆ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥

Raaj Milak Sikadhaareeaa Ras Bhogan Bisathhaar ||

You may possess empires, vast estates, authority over others, and the enjoyment of myriads of pleasures;

ਬਾਗ ਸੁਹਾਵੇ ਸੋਹਣੇ ਚਲੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਅਫਾਰ ॥

Baag Suhaavae Sohanae Chalai Hukam Afaar ||

You may have delightful and beautiful gardens, and issue unquestioned commands;

ਰੰਗ ਤਮਾਸੇ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧੀ ਚਾਇ ਲਗਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥

Rang Thamaasae Bahu Bidhhee Chaae Lag Rehiaa ||

You may have enjoyments and entertainments of all sorts and kinds, and continue to enjoy exciting pleasures

ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਾ ਸਰਪ ਕੀ ਜੂਨਿ ਗਇਆ ॥੬॥

Chith N Aaeiou Paarabreham Thaa Sarap Kee Joon Gaeiaa ||6||

-and yet, if you do not come to remember the Supreme Lord God, you shall be reincarnated as a snake. ||6||

where is the metaphor in this?

[savinderpalsingh]

thanks for clearing things

but stating that wont belive in sakhis is also manmatt

[gurdeepsinghjohal]

where is the metaphor in this?

If I understand the word metaphor correctly then these tuks have metaphor

ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਲਗੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਤਾ ਸਰਪਰ ਨਰਕੇ ਜਾਇ ॥੫॥

ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਾ ਸਰਪ ਕੀ ਜੂਨਿ ਗਇਆ ॥੬॥

[Jonny101]

If I understand the word metaphor correctly then these tuks have metaphor

ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਲਗੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਤਾ ਸਰਪਰ ਨਰਕੇ ਜਾਇ ॥੫॥

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Jee has done the arths of this tukh as follows:

ਸਚ ਹਕੀਤਕ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਰੰਗ ਨਹੀ ਲੱਗਾ, ਜੋ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਮ ਰੰਗਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਲੀਨ ਬਿਸਮੀਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਏ, ਤਿਨ੍ਹਾ ਨੂੰ ਅਵਸ਼ ਨਰਕ ਭੋਗਨੇ ਪੈਣਗੇ। ਇਹ ਗਤਿ ਕਦੇ ਟਲਨੀ ਨਹੀ।ਯਥਾ ਗੁਰਵਾਕ-

ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਲਗੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਤਾ ਸਰਪਰ ਨਰਕੇ ਜਾਇ ॥੫॥

"ਸਰਪਰ ਨਰਕੇ ਜਾਇ" ਵਾਲੀ ਪੰਗਤੀ ਵ੍ਸੂਕ ਨਾਲ ਤਸਦੀਕ ਕਰਦੀ ਹੈ ਕੀ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਦਾ ਰੰਗ ਨਹੀ ਲੱਗਾ ਸੋ ਲਾਜ਼ਮੀ ਤੋਰ ਤੇ ਸਿਧੇ ਨਰਕਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜਾਣਗੇ, ਚਾਹੇ ਔਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਸ਼ਾਸਤਰ, ਸਿਮਰਤੀਆਂ, ਚਾਰੇ ਵੇਦਾਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਕੇ ਘੋਖ ਘੋਖ ਕੇ ਮੁਖਾਗਰ ਪਾਠ ਕਿਤਨੇ ਹੀ ਕਿਓਂ ਨ ਕੀਤੇ ਹੋਣ। ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਜਰੂਰ (ਸਰਪਰ) ਨਰਕੇ ਜਾਣਾ ਪਊ, ਜੇ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਦੇ ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਰੰਗ ਨਹੀਂ ਤਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਚੜ੍ਹਿਆ। ਨਾਮ ਹੀਣੇ ਤਪੇ ਤਪੀਸ਼ਰ ਜੋਗੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਰਕ ਭੁਗਤਣੇ ਪੈਣਗੇ, ਚਾਹੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਆਨਮਤੀ ਤੀਰਥਾਂ ਦੀ ਯਾਤਰਾ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਵੇ। ਨਾਨਾ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰੀ ਤੀਰਥਾਂ ਤੇ ਨ੍ਹਾਇ ਨਹਾਇ ਕਰ ਕਰਮਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਦੁਗਣੀ ਪੂਜਾ ਪੁਨ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਕੀਤੀ ਹੋਵੇ। ਸਾਰਾ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਇਹ ਹੈ-

ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਚਾਰਿ ਮੁਖਾਗਰ ਬਿਚਰੇ ॥

ਤਪੇ ਤਪੀਸਰ ਜੋਗੀਆ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰੇ ॥

ਖਟੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਤੇ ਦੁਗੁਣੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਨਾਇ ॥

ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਲਗੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਤਾ ਸਰਪਰ ਨਰਕੇ ਜਾਇ ॥੫॥