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One U.S Sikh who lives in California (where I live) has already agreed with me that yes, this gangsta problem in Sikhs is true...Anyways, not all Sikhs are like that, but youths do have this gangsta wanna be attitude...

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I can totally see your point here.

But on the flip side, Cartoons are seen as an attack/insult against whole Islam..hence you'll see a reaction among Muslims...Regardless, majority of Muslims will regard woolwich attack as UnIslamic, inhumane, and terroristic.

thanks for reply.. sorry i resonded to your other post here regarding sikh gangsters in us.. again personally lets not get confused with culture background and religion..

Anyway back to the point i made for me personally i see both as insults or maybe you are not aware of groups who more or less supported and justified the woolwich attack... veer i hope you can appreciate thats its difficult for convo on forums so pls do a little research into the incidents we are talking about....

I do not speak on behalf of the sikh nation or this website but something i woukd expect from myself and sikh authorities if we were in a similar situation as muslims are in...

If somebody or group was to insult our gurus publicly i would protest and " go nuts", but i would also react the same if a sikh butchered aninnocent person, for exampl an innocent hindu (i say hindu because of 1984 which is still fresh to this day).... now we cannot be responsible for individuals who claim to be sikh but if they were shouting sikh slogans and being backed (or actions being justified) by some sikh organisations in the uk personally i would protest out side those sikh organisation buildings to shut down and/or go back to india... now we have a sitation connected to the woolwich incident where muslim groups are justifing their action inparticual the luton group..check out ajem choudry...

my question to uk muslims with their TV speeces was why not protest against these people and their hate ideology...make a real statement..

I agree with you that this tommy guy is a dangerous man as he is clued up and in my opinion is genuine...

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No, free speech should cover EVERY TOPIC. If someone wants to criticize Sikhism they should be ALLOWED to and we shouldn't have a problem with it. If an ideology can't stand up to debate then it's not worth following.

Sikhism CAN STAND UP to any debate, so we have nothing to fear. I mean just look at Guru Gobind's 52 Hukams, It's so incredibly righteous IT HURTS. You CAN'T pick holes in the strength of that moral code it's impossible. Modern day values can't even compare to how ridiculously heavenly you're supposed to be in Sikhism :p .

You're missing the point...there is a difference between disagreeing and attempting to insult a religion to cause offence. That was the issue with us with the Narakdharees in 1978; they were slandering the Gurus. Atheists write books and have conferences on why they believe there is no God; no-one has a problem with it. That is having an opinion; deliberately taking the mick is different.
But WHO is denigrating Sikhism anyway? The white man? Hardly! I've never heard/read about a white person saying anything but positive things about Sikhs, talking about how we're all warriors and hard working, really fun people to hang around with and never cause any trouble. I don't see ANY Sikhs disagreeing with this either :p . You CAN'T pick and choose what opinions you're willing to allow.

Again, you're missing the point. They're not doing it yet, but we have seen the reaction when we raise issues (the Be-Izatee play, mixed marriages in Gurdwaras).........the majority of the British public have been against us. They want the right to do insult any religion; this will include ours and is why we should oppose it.

The play Behzti was WRITTEN BY A SIKH don't forget. Someone in our VERY OWN community wanted to talk about various issues we face and we have to allow that. The only real problem was she set the play in a Gurdwara without any actual given reason for it, and Sikhs were RIGHT TO PEACEFULLY PROTEST about it and not support it. You are also free to call the author a traitor, but violence is out of the question.

The violating of the Gurdwara for cheap publicity by Gurpreet Bhatti was much worse. A Sikh ?.....I think she is more westernised and living by western values than Sikh values. The majority of the British public were with her. We do not face the issues she showed in her play; that was just a pathetic attempt to cause controversy and make her name.

As for Southall. A white person may not want to LIVE there, but would they ever say they feel totally unwelcome? I don't think so. Tommy Robinson has gone on record saying that even though Southall is basically a Sikh town, it's just as friendly as a white area.

Why would white people who have been living in an area for generations move out ? It's not a decision that is taken lightly.

Tommy Robinson has already admitted that classic EDL chants like 'WHO THE EFF IS ALLAH' are probably not the best way to win support, but fact of the matter is Islamists have said and done far worse. Free speech isn't always pretty and nobody said it was, but it is the best way to run the world. The people (no matter who/what they are) in the EDL are ANGRY at the injustice taking place in England, and how their country and future is changing for the worse. PROTESTING with the EDL is the best possible outlet for that anger, far better than random people turning to riots and blind violence like Anders Breivik did in Norway.

The EDL chants are directed against a religion......against ALL Muslims. It shows that this goes beyond just being against Islamists and is why Sikhs should have nothing to do with it. Again, it is inaction by the government that they haven't arrested Islamists making provocative chants.

I disagree, Halal SHOULD be banned.

Muslims had their chance to make it work and they clearly failed us all. Halal should CONTINUE to be banned until they can prove beyond doubt that it will never infringe on the rights of non-Muslims in Britain (95% of the country) ever again.

As a Sikh I will FOREVER be appalled by Halal. As a British person I will FOREVER be appalled by Halal. Halal goes against British views on Animal Welfare, so the time when Halal will be truly acceptable is probably never.

The reason people are being force-fed Halal is not because of Muslims, it is because of retailers who put profit and business efficiency before everything else. Separating Halal and non-Halal is time consuming for them, it's easier to just have Halal. The government needs to make them separate the two and give people the right NOT to eat Halal.

The whole meat industry is cruel and exploits animals living in horrible, cramped conditions before killing them.

The 'Azaan', the Muslim call to prayer should ALSO be banned. Just like it was banned in the Sikh Empire.

WHY should anyone have to hear for miles around AND in their homes, some guy on a loudspeaker chant about how amazing Islam and Muhammad is? How much you suck for being an unbeliever?

WHAT would happen if a Gurdwara started using loudspeakers to blast to the world how amazing the Guru's, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Waheguru are? Would Muslims appreciate that? Would anyone actually WANT that?

WHAT would happen if someone was to use loudspeakers at their house and blast to the world how much better they are than everyone else? They'd be arrested :p .

If this is happening then it needs to stop.

"NOW is the time for the country to decide. Do we want Britain-istan. Or do we want Great Britain? YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH. We either have to give Muslims everything they want, or 'limit' them by giving them the SAME rights as the other 95% of this country. There is no halfway point."

Yes, everyone should have the same rights under the law.

Whups, sorry about the late reply. Anyhoo...

I already said that if someone is insulting you DELIBERATELY you should ignore them or respond in a COOL MINDED manner. Sticks and stones mate, at the end of the day Sikhism is unaffected.

HOW can anyone decide what is an acceptable opinion to have? Where are the lines drawn? You simply cannot put a limit on Free Speech on anything but the most extreme things (like inciting violence).

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I'm sorry but it just sounds like you're terrified of the 'British public' (who are so inept it took forever for them to acknowledge their children were being groomed) for reasons that you haven't been able to get across.

I'm struggling to understand how a bunch of random white people groaning whilst watching the News is meant to be WORSE... than Pakistani men grooming children in a sadistic manner. Or worse than ANY of the problems the Islamic community gives the country which I have already highlighted. Indians are affected by all of these problems too, not just the white populace.

WHICH is the more pressing matter?

Seriously WHAT is there to be remotely afraid of from downtrodden white people? :p

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Fact is when it came to the 'Behzti' situation, some Sikhs were giving the author death threats (so she went into hiding) and some were arrested for violence. Of COURSE there was gonna be negativity, can you blame anyone? How is that meant to look to an outsider?

And what was it all for? A goddamn THEATRE PLAY. The actions of some Sikhs made us look pathetic. It made us look like Muslims... offended at EVERY tiny thing, and we SHOULD be better than that. Protests, lawsuits, boycotts and maybe even a call to get her EXCOMMUNICATED from the Sikh community would be far more appropriate.

Maybe she did write the play just for the controversy, or maybe she didn't we don't know. That said you can't deny that 'honour' isn't a topic that has led to a great deal of stupidity in the Sikh community and of course South Asian communities in general. We just RECENTLY learned the story of the old Sikh woman who got her daughter-in-law murdered in India to preserve her families reputation. Problems exists and eventually SOMEONE is going to talk about them, even in ways we don't like.

I don't recall the feeling towards Sikh protests against greedy Gurdwara's holding Interfaith Marriages being all that bad. After the initial shock value wore off, the discussions were quite civil and the logic of WHY they shouldn't take place quite clear.

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With regards to your point about Southall, there are PLENTY of reasons why people who've lived there generations would leave...

They are wealthier and can afford better places to live? Bigger houses?

Jobs? Schools?

They want to move to the country? This is especially true with older people.

And yes, maybe they just want to live with other white people? Are you saying Indians never move out of Muslim dominated areas? It's natural to want to stick with your 'own kind'.

The point is, Southall is still a WELCOMING place for these white people, they aren't being forced out like what happens in these 'Muslim Areas'. In these areas there are people using violence and intimidation to FORCE minorities in the area out. This has happened all across Europe.

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I never said Muslims were responsible for ridiculously lazy business practices in British companies, that would be the companies themselves. Muslim abattoirs however ARE the source of Halal meat, they lack responsibility and REALLY DON'T CARE AT ALL where it goes.

The whole Halal meat industry should be stopped until it is fully worked out to protect everyone who may come in contact with it, with various laws in place to prevent it ever mucking up ever again. A Sikh should understand the urgent need for this.

Killing animals may be cruel, but the Halal slaughter method (slitting the throat and allowing the animal to bleed to death) is the very worst of all.

I NEVER said that Halal meat should be shut out forever, even though personally I wouldn't have an issue with that :p .

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You've never heard the Azaan before where you live? Good, it's annoying noise pollution which I'm sure was intended to crush the spirits of Kaffirs once upon a time. Only Muslims would ever be allowed to get away with broadcasting their ideals in THAT manner, and they'd take to the streets if anyone else tried to do the same. That has to change.

I'm glad you agree that everyone should have TRULY equal rights and treatment. Right NOW that is not the case, and who else is trying to fix that aside from the EDL? Nobody.

Sikhs have a moral duty to help ensure fairness prevails wherever that may be, members of the EDL have come to US for help not the other way around. If Sikhs giving a unified nod to the EDL sorts out everyones problems, then who are we to stand in the way of positive progress? ... FOOLS that's what. Muslims have not earned our protection, and they are the only ones in the country challenging our own.

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I already said that if someone is insulting you DELIBERATELY you should ignore them or respond in a COOL MINDED manner. Sticks and stones mate, at the end of the day Sikhism is unaffected.

HOW can anyone decide what is an acceptable opinion to have? Where are the lines drawn? You simply cannot put a limit on Free Speech on anything but the most extreme things (like inciting violence).

Sounds like a weak response to me.........a recipe to invite someone to insult you. Sikhism is unaffected but if we are not willing to defend it, then that does not inspire confidence in others of our faith. I think most civilised people can see when the intent is to insult. Insulting a religion in order to provoke a response is VERY extreme.

I'm sorry but it just sounds like you're terrified of the 'British public' (who are so inept it took forever for them to acknowledge their children were being groomed) for reasons that you haven't been able to get across.

I'm struggling to understand how a bunch of random white people groaning whilst watching the News is meant to be WORSE... than Pakistani men grooming children in a sadistic manner. Or worse than ANY of the problems the Islamic community gives the country which I have already highlighted. Indians are affected by all of these problems too, not just the white populace.

WHICH is the more pressing matter?

Seriously WHAT is there to be remotely afraid of from downtrodden white people? :p

Not terrified at all, but aware of what is happening and who the sort of people are who support the EDL. I'm not saying them disagreeing with Sikhs is worse than grooming; you are not understanding the context of my posts or the point I am making, I was clearly addressing the type of people who are in the EDL and how we need to understand this before desperately jumping onto their bandwagon. How they have been against Sikhs in certain issues as-well. The amount of racism Sikhs have suffered after 9/11. My point was that 1) it is an attack on Islam the religion 2) if they sort out the Muslims, then Sikhs (or any community who wants to be distinct) will be next. There are much more real issues in the UK than the 'Islamification' of Britain........there is no national identity, community spirit has gone, family values have broken down, white people have moved away from ethnic majority areas, multiculturalism has failed, the economy is crumbling.....Brits want their country back. THESE are the problems.

Fact is when it came to the 'Behzti' situation, some Sikhs were giving the author death threats (so she went into hiding) and some were arrested for violence. Of COURSE there was gonna be negativity, can you blame anyone? How is that meant to look to an outsider?

And what was it all for? A goddamn THEATRE PLAY. The actions of some Sikhs made us look pathetic. It made us look like Muslims... offended at EVERY tiny thing, and we SHOULD be better than that. Protests, lawsuits, boycotts and maybe even a call to get her EXCOMMUNICATED from the Sikh community would be far more appropriate.

Maybe she did write the play just for the controversy, or maybe she didn't we don't know. That said you can't deny that 'honour' isn't a topic that has led to a great deal of stupidity in the Sikh community and of course South Asian communities in general. We just RECENTLY learned the story of the old Sikh woman who got her daughter-in-law murdered in India to preserve her families reputation. Problems exists and eventually SOMEONE is going to talk about them, even in ways we don't like.

I don't recall the feeling towards Sikh protests against greedy Gurdwara's holding Interfaith Marriages being all that bad. After the initial shock value wore off, the discussions were quite civil and the logic of WHY they shouldn't take place quite clear.

Sad to see that you view the disrespect of your religion as a 'tiny' thing. What is "better than that", is it tolerating disrespect and letting it get BIGGER AND BIGGER ? Today it was a theatre play, tomorrow it will be a television program, after that a film. If we stayed silent the insults would escalate.

Yes, 'honour' is a topic that has led to a great deal of stupidity in the Sikh community, I totally agree with you. The stupidity of a once proud, dignified people losing their honour and where they would never have tolerated promiscuous behaviour amongst their girls to the situation today where they promote and encourage equality and feminism (anything stupid the man can do, I can do as-well) and then cry that their girls are out of their control !!! The stupidity of honourable people losing such priceless virtues. The stupidity of how we would never have tolerated our children getting married outside the religion to where we invite them to have their marriage inside the Gurdwara and give them a siropa afterwards !!!

With regards to your point about Southall, there are PLENTY of reasons why people who've lived there generations would leave...

They are wealthier and can afford better places to live? Bigger houses?

Jobs? Schools?

They want to move to the country? This is especially true with older people.

And yes, maybe they just want to live with other white people? Are you saying Indians never move out of Muslim dominated areas? It's natural to want to stick with your 'own kind'.

The point is, Southall is still a WELCOMING place for these white people, they aren't being forced out like what happens in these 'Muslim Areas'. In these areas there are people using violence and intimidation to FORCE minorities in the area out. This has happened all across Europe.

Come on..............be real. Having heard the views of white people who left Southall/West London I can assure you the majority of cases was not because they got wealthier and got better jobs..............most of them were working class and not very good academically. The real reason is that they didn't like living amongst Asians and we were accused of the same things that we hear against Muslims today.....they stick to themselves, don't integrate, it doesn't feel like England anymore etc etc. A lot of Britain has 'no-go' areas....generally unemployed, criminal, gangster type youth who have respect for no-one.

I'm glad you agree that everyone should have TRULY equal rights and treatment. Right NOW that is not the case, and who else is trying to fix that aside from the EDL? Nobody.

Well the BNP have been trying for longer than the EDL...............it doesn't mean Sikhs should join them.

Sikhs have a moral duty to help ensure fairness prevails wherever that may be, members of the EDL have come to US for help not the other way around. If Sikhs giving a unified nod to the EDL sorts out everyones problems, then who are we to stand in the way of positive progress? ... FOOLS that's what. Muslims have not earned our protection, and they are the only ones in the country challenging our own.

You're talking about morals and fairness while advocating we support racists ??? I have shown you they are not just against militant Islam or Islamification............they are against Islam. Shouting "who the f**k is the Allah", "Muhammad is a p**do".....in one demonstration they were going to burn the Koran to shouts of "burn it, burn it !!!". Are these the sort of people Sikhs want to be supporting....have we become THAT desperate ???

They have come to us because they need to push us forward in their fight against Muslims....this is OBVIOUS. No community is supporting the EDL at the moment, even though they claim they have blacks, jews, sikhs, hindus supporting them, how many do you see in their protest videos ?

Sikhs are CLEARLY being used and set-up here...there are even videos on youtube claiming that Sikhs are the EDL's allies !!! If Sikhs were to support them it would tarnish our name turning the vast majority of good Muslims (who have had nothing to do with grooming) against us and increase tensions between communities.

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Sounds like a weak response to me.........a recipe to invite someone to insult you. Sikhism is unaffected but if we are not willing to defend it, then that does not inspire confidence in others of our faith. I think most civilised people can see when the intent is to insult. Insulting a religion in order to provoke a response is VERY extreme.

Not terrified at all, but aware of what is happening and who the sort of people are who support the EDL. I'm not saying them disagreeing with Sikhs is worse than grooming; you are not understanding the context of my posts or the point I am making, I was clearly addressing the type of people who are in the EDL and how we need to understand this before desperately jumping onto their bandwagon. How they have been against Sikhs in certain issues as-well. The amount of racism Sikhs have suffered after 9/11. My point was that 1) it is an attack on Islam the religion 2) if they sort out the Muslims, then Sikhs (or any community who wants to be distinct) will be next. There are much more real issues in the UK than the 'Islamification' of Britain........there is no national identity, community spirit has gone, family values have broken down, white people have moved away from ethnic majority areas, multiculturalism has failed, the economy is crumbling.....Brits want their country back. THESE are the problems.

Sad to see that you view the disrespect of your religion as a 'tiny' thing. What is "better than that", is it tolerating disrespect and letting it get BIGGER AND BIGGER ? Today it was a theatre play, tomorrow it will be a television program, after that a film. If we stayed silent the insults would escalate.

Yes, 'honour' is a topic that has led to a great deal of stupidity in the Sikh community, I totally agree with you. The stupidity of a once proud, dignified people losing their honour and where they would never have tolerated promiscuous behaviour amongst their girls to the situation today where they promote and encourage equality and feminism (anything stupid the man can do, I can do as-well) and then cry that their girls are out of their control !!! The stupidity of honourable people losing such priceless virtues. The stupidity of how we would never have tolerated our children getting married outside the religion to where we invite them to have their marriage inside the Gurdwara and give them a siropa afterwards !!!

Come on..............be real. Having heard the views of white people who left Southall/West London I can assure you the majority of cases was not because they got wealthier and got better jobs..............most of them were working class and not very good academically. The real reason is that they didn't like living amongst Asians and we were accused of the same things that we hear against Muslims today.....they stick to themselves, don't integrate, it doesn't feel like England anymore etc etc. A lot of Britain has 'no-go' areas....generally unemployed, criminal, gangster type youth who have respect for no-one.

Well the BNP have been trying for longer than the EDL...............it doesn't mean Sikhs should join them.

You're talking about morals and fairness while advocating we support racists ??? I have shown you they are not just against militant Islam or Islamification............they are against Islam. Shouting "who the f**k is the Allah", "Muhammad is a p**do".....in one demonstration they were going to burn the Koran to shouts of "burn it, burn it !!!". Are these the sort of people Sikhs want to be supporting....have we become THAT desperate ???

They have come to us because they need to push us forward in their fight against Muslims....this is OBVIOUS. No community is supporting the EDL at the moment, even though they claim they have blacks, jews, sikhs, hindus supporting them, how many do you see in their protest videos ?

Sikhs are CLEARLY being used and set-up here...there are even videos on youtube claiming that Sikhs are the EDL's allies !!! If Sikhs were to support them it would tarnish our name turning the vast majority of good Muslims (who have had nothing to do with grooming) against us and increase tensions between communities.

Hahaha! Your Strawman arguments are amazing! :p

Are you THAT AFRAID of people calling you names? Do you seriously believe Sikhism will turn to dust as easily as Islam does when you argue against it? Is your faith that weak?

WHAT white people are even insulting Sikhism in the first place? Show me.

Inspire confidence in Sikhism? So you're saying that by shutting down peoples ability to express themselves... they're gonna somehow respect us more?

HERE'S AN IDEA! If you want to inspire confidence in Sikhi, how about you LISTEN TO YOUR GURU and try to improve this world with good deeds? By doing Sewa, not by being a crybaby.

It sounds to me like you want to join the Muslims and petition the government for Pakistan style blasphemy laws :p . How terribly sad...

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More of your weak Strawman arguments... You seriously sound like you're petrified of absolutely nothing and ready to go cry in the corner.

WHAT harm is the white population of Britain actually doing to you? Doing to Sikhs? WHERE is your evidence that 'THEY ARE COMING FOR US NEXT'?

The fact that the country is multi-ethnic is NEVER going to change. The brown faces aren't going anywhere. The WHOLE point of the EDL is to crack down on Muslim problems NOW while we still have the chance and the Muslim population is small enough to easily deal with.

You want to talk about post 9/11 attacks on Sikhs?

Well how about the fact that Americans have NO IDEA what a Sikh even is? How about the fact that Sikhs have done such a crappy job of separating ourselves from Muslims, that the nutters committing these crimes saw a Turban and INSTANTLY thought Muslim.

In case you haven't yet realised...

Sikhs are being used AS A SHIELD by Muslims. Both in the US and in the UK.

Muslims are using the term 'ASIAN' to SHIELD themselves in the West. To obscure the fact that THEY are the root cause of problems and crimes.

We are just playing into their hands, and we should have separated ourselves from their ilk LONG AGO. Sikhs have been the victims of these attacks and died for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The Wisconsin Gurdwara Shooting was done by a man who had NO IDEA WHO WE EVEN WERE. Are you okay with this?

Did the Muslims ever come out into the street and protest for OUR sake? Hell no. The best we can get is lip service.

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Disrespect of my religion? Do you not understand the difference between a piece of fiction and ACTUAL REAL LIFE SUFFERING? A theatre play (again which written by a Sikh) does not need to be opposed with violence and death threats under ANY circumstances. Are you saying you advocate such a ridiculous reaction? Over peaceful protest and all the other peaceful (yet powerful) channels?

What I consider TRULY disrespectful is the destruction of an innocent life, of someone being murdered or raped ESPECIALLY if they are a fellow Sikh. THAT is a REAL insult.

I think your values are all messed up mate... And I think the Guru's would agree with me.

What on EARTH are you talking about now? Promiscuous behaviour? What the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? ¬_¬

Maybe if we didn't have so many scared Sikhs lacking in backbone and willingness to act... then maybe we could actually sort out SOME of our problems? Maybe we could end them entirely?

Setting a good example is generally a good first step. Maybe if you lifted weights and had confidence (like me) you could help keep girls in check?

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It doesn't MATTER what these Londoners you say you know think. Either Southall is a welcoming place or it isn't. Are Sikhs going around hassling people and telling them to get out? No? Then that's the end of it.

I live in a mixed Asian area but both of my neighbours on either side are white families. They STILL live here because they've done so for years and it's still a nice welcoming area.

Nobody wants to live in an area plagued by tension, crime and low lifes, doesn't matter what colour they are.

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The BNP have been trying to get equal rights have they? Since when? :p

The BNP didn't even allow any non-whites into their organisation until they were forced to relatively recently by the Law. The BNP have nothing good to offer anyone. End of.

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So the EDL is racist now is it? HOW?

I'm brown and I'm telling you they aren't racist. So convince me how they are, bearing in mind that Islam is an ideology NOT a race. There are Muslims of all different colours but only ONE Islam.

There has never been Koran burning at a demonstration either, that is a ridiculous claim.

Militant Islam and Islamification are all aspects of Islam (Jihad) and Sharia Law. You would know this if you read the Koran. ALL of it must be tackled as one entity.

I've already told you that even the EDL Leader himself doesn't support the 'WHO THE EFF IS ALLAH!' chants. That chant is a clear response to the 'GOD IS GREAT' chants constantly used by Islamists and terrorists. I don't support the chants either, but frustrated people need an outlet.

Are you telling me that Muhammad WASN'T a pedophile? He was a 50 odd year old man who married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9 and she STILL played with dolls. How is that NOT a pedophile? :p

There are even ex-Muslims at EDL rallies, so you best believe people from all other ethnic backgrounds support them in some capacity. This is nothing to do with desperation, it's about logic finally winning out. Do you have a better idea? I doubt it.

Ah yes.... We would lose the brilliant 'support' of the community of 'GOOD' Muslims (who incidentally want to have Sharia Law in this country). The same Muslims who have done SO MUCH FOR SIKHS in the past am I RIGHT? ¬_¬

Face reality mate.

I am actually arguing the need for action to sort out Sikh issues.

You on the other hand are simply afraid. You are afraid of white people for some strange reason despite how SOFT this country is. You are also afraid of Muslims. You are being a Muslim apologist (using terms like racist) and want to lick bottoms to try to keep a lid on 'community tensions'.

40 Sikh guys attacked a small Muslim owned restaurant in Leicester after it had been found to be linked to grooming activity, after the police and the Muslim community did nothing to prevent it. THERE is your community cohesion RIGHT THERE. Smashed into a billion pieces :p .

Newsflash.

SIKHS HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED TARGETS BY MUSLIMS FOR A VERY LONG TIME. MUSLIMS HAVE NOT SORTED THESE ISSUES OUT.

Why should we protect those who won't do the same for us and only seek to stab us in the back?

Rationality is hard for him to comprehend....I admire your efforts though...

Are you still here? :p

Haven't I thrashed you enough to scare you off by now? You aren't even a challenge :p .

Funny, a Muslim talking about being... hahaha... RATIONAL!

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My faith is not weak, and nor was that of my forefathers....who never tolerated insults to their religion. This, unfortunately, is a recent thing which started with the insulting of Christianity in this country which has cause a lot of problems for the British people. Sad to see that you support it.

The only crybaby is you. You can't take it when someone points the facts about EDL. It's not about being afraid....you asked how the EDL are racist I showed you, and now you can't take it. I'm not worried about anything.

How terribly sad that you tolerate insults to your faith....maybe because you didn't care about it in the first place. You are so obsessed with Muslims that every argument has to come back to them. Get a grip.

More of your weak Strawman arguments... You seriously sound like you're petrified of absolutely nothing and ready to go cry in the corner.

You're the only one crying here. So desperately scared of Muslims that you saying Sikhs should join a right-wing organisation. Am I saying we should join Muslims ???? Who's the petrified one here ? I was just showing you that members of the EDL are racist against us as-well....which is one reason why we shouldn't join them. But, you ignore the point I am making and keep crying. I was just answering your question.

You want to talk about post 9/11 attacks on Sikhs?

Well how about the fact that Americans have NO IDEA what a Sikh even is? How about the fact that Sikhs have done such a crappy job of separating ourselves from Muslims, that the nutters committing these crimes saw a Turban and INSTANTLY thought Muslim.

In case you haven't yet realised...

Sikhs are being used AS A SHIELD by Muslims. Both in the US and in the UK.

Muslims are using the term 'ASIAN' to SHIELD themselves in the West. To obscure the fact that THEY are the root cause of problems and crimes.

We are just playing into their hands, and we should have separated ourselves from their ilk LONG AGO. Sikhs have been the victims of these attacks and died for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The Wisconsin Gurdwara Shooting was done by a man who had NO IDEA WHO WE EVEN WERE. Are you okay with this?

Did the Muslims ever come out into the street and protest for OUR sake? Hell no. The best we can get is lip service.

That is due to our failure to tell people about who we are and also the media being too politically correct and scared of saying 'Muslim'. Again, pathetic that you would excuse racism against your own people. Was it the case in the UK as-well that they don't know who Sikhs are ? It was racism, plain and simple.

And to spell it out for you (as you seem incapable of understanding), I am trying to show you that the current undercurrent of anger is more than just against Muslims. There are some big issues brewing in the UK and Sikhs shouldn't be used as cannon fodder. Look at the bigger picture.

Disrespect of my religion? Do you not understand the difference between a piece of fiction and ACTUAL REAL LIFE SUFFERING? A theatre play (again which written by a Sikh) does not need to be opposed with violence and death threats under ANY circumstances. Are you saying you advocate such a ridiculous reaction? Over peaceful protest and all the other peaceful (yet powerful) channels?

What I consider TRULY disrespectful is the destruction of an innocent life, of someone being murdered or raped ESPECIALLY if they are a fellow Sikh. THAT is a REAL insult.

I think your values are all messed up mate... And I think the Guru's would agree with me.

Stop crying, no-one was killed or raped over the play. I consider the destruction of a way of life / culture truly disrespectful. Your values are truly messed up......leaving Sikh values and adopting chav values. If you look at our history we have never tolerated disrespect of our religion. In fact the recent struggle from 1978 actually started from this issue. Even the rehatnamey say "Gur Ki Ninda sunai na kaan"...but these would not be in line with your so-called British values so I would expect you to sell out here.

What on EARTH are you talking about now? Promiscuous behaviour? What the hell does that have to do with ANYTHING? ¬_¬

Re-read my post...it's linked to the issue of honour. I don't think you will understand this though....

It doesn't MATTER what these Londoners you say you know think. Either Southall is a welcoming place or it isn't. Are Sikhs going around hassling people and telling them to get out? No? Then that's the end of it.

Again, you are in denial, pretending there are no issues with white people moving out of ethnic areas. They feel like they are being pushed out of all areas. How many Muslims are going around telling people to get out ? Or, is this just something spread by scaremongers ?

The BNP have been trying to get equal rights have they? Since when? :p

The BNP didn't even allow any non-whites into their organisation until they were forced to relatively recently by the Law. The BNP have nothing good to offer anyone. End of.

No, they have been against Islam and Islamification long before the EDL were.

So the EDL is racist now is it? HOW?

I'm brown and I'm telling you they aren't racist. So convince me how they are, bearing in mind that Islam is an ideology NOT a race. There are Muslims of all different colours but only ONE Islam.

There has never been Koran burning at a demonstration either, that is a ridiculous claim.

I'm not going to keep repeating the same things. When I give you examples you go into denial and scream "petrified, sacred...". They didn't burn the koran.....they were going to. I have seen the video on youtube.

Militant Islam and Islamification are all aspects of Islam (Jihad) and Sharia Law. You would know this if you read the Koran. ALL of it must be tackled as one entity.

This proves you are against a religion, something Sikhs have never been in history. Even after sacrificing his four sons Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes a letter to Aurangzeb (Zafarnama) and talks about how Aurangzeb is a deceiving swine who has disgraced his religion. They did NOT start bashing Islam.

I've already told you that even the EDL Leader himself doesn't support the 'WHO THE EFF IS ALLAH!' chants. That chant is a clear response to the 'GOD IS GREAT' chants constantly used by Islamists and terrorists. I don't support the chants either, but frustrated people need an outlet.

Shows you what sort of people the EDL is made up of they are and why Sikhs shouldn't support them.

Are you telling me that Muhammad WASN'T a pedophile? He was a 50 odd year old man who married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9 and she STILL played with dolls. How is that NOT a pedophile? :p

No Sikh in history has ever spoken like that about anyone else's religion. Typical chav language.

There are even ex-Muslims at EDL rallies, so you best believe people from all other ethnic backgrounds support them in some capacity. This is nothing to do with desperation, it's about logic finally winning out. Do you have a better idea? I doubt it.

There is ONE Muslim who goes to the EDL rallies.

I am actually arguing the need for action to sort out Sikh issues.

We need to do this as we have BIG problems.

You on the other hand are simply afraid. You are afraid of white people for some strange reason despite how SOFT this country is. You are also afraid of Muslims. You are being a Muslim apologist (using terms like racist) and want to lick bottoms to try to keep a lid on 'community tensions'.

You are so afraid that you want to lick chav bottoms, begging them to fight Muslims for you. Have you become that desperate ? I am not saying we should join Muslims...YOU are saying we should join EDL, so who is the apologist, who is desperate, who is frightened ????? You contradict yourself by saying we should be strong, but you are so petrified that you want to join the EDL !!!

I am hardly a Muslim apologist as I support our community taking action when required (eg. Shere Punjab).......but NOT by being used as pawns by the EDL. I am in favour of our community concentrating on ourselves and tackling our problems OURSELVES without being so scared that we have to join right-wing groups (by doing this we will end up being used and look stupid).

40 Sikh guys attacked a small Muslim owned restaurant in Leicester after it had been found to be linked to grooming activity, after the police and the Muslim community did nothing to prevent it. THERE is your community cohesion RIGHT THERE. Smashed into a billion pieces :p .

Good for the Sikh guys. Again, not a reason to join the EDL.

Newsflash.

SIKHS HAVE BEEN CONSIDERED TARGETS BY MUSLIMS FOR A VERY LONG TIME. MUSLIMS HAVE NOT SORTED THESE ISSUES OUT.

Why should we protect those who won't do the same for us and only seek to stab us in the back?

I'm not saying we should protect them. We shouldn't join the EDL.

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It is said in kalyug dharm will be like a table on one foot...so lets say 25 percent of this world is dharmic(righteous) the other 75 per cent is adharmic..so islam as a percentage increasing makes sense as we are that much closer to khalsa raj...

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Your 3 paragraphs are worth 1400 years of Islamic history. My one paragraph was about just 300 years of Sikhi. If Sikhs or Sikhi wasn't a threat to Muslims/Islam, you don't belong on this forum sir. If our growing numbers didn't bother you and your folks, you wouldn't be preaching the accolades of Islam on a Sikh forum.

FACT is that YOU people see us as a THREAT, which is why you're posting here today and I am replying to you. FACT is that YOUR Muslim rulers saw Sikhi and the Gurus as threats which is why they martyred scores of Sikhs all in the name of Islam. FACT is that you guys have seen Sikhs as a threat from the very beginning, and you being present on this forum is just another proof.

If you don't see Sikhs as a threat, why don't you leave us alone and live your life, and let us live ours? We are NOT bothered to read about what Islam has achieved, because all it has given us is the blood written history of our shaheeds. Go and preach Islam to the weak minded ones who lack any deen-imaan and will fall for your words. I grew up right in the Middle East and know your folks inside out. I've seen first hand what happens to non-Muslims under Shariah and Islamic law, so please spare us the lessons. Either admit that you see Sikhs as a threat and so you're on here, or quit posting if you're that confident.

I am not going to ban you or put you again under QC. But if I see ONE more, just ONE more freaking post from you, it will confirm my belief that you guys STILL see Sikhs as a threat. Go teach those who are ignorant enough to learn, we've seen it all enough, we've seen it throughout history and we've seen it first hand.

I know I will probably be QC'D for this one or even banned but how long can a lie last??? In this case Islamic lies are unravelling and to prevent the creed's ultimate self-annihilation it's fundamental (we know in what context) adherents are running around trying to gain more "reverts." On the other yhand his Al-Taqiya is already evident from his b*lls*it on this forum. Need we bother more??? Let him bark its what they are born for.

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My faith is not weak, and nor was that of my forefathers....who never tolerated insults to their religion. This, unfortunately, is a recent thing which started with the insulting of Christianity in this country which has cause a lot of problems for the British people. Sad to see that you support it.

The only crybaby is you. You can't take it when someone points the facts about EDL. It's not about being afraid....you asked how the EDL are racist I showed you, and now you can't take it. I'm not worried about anything.

How terribly sad that you tolerate insults to your faith....maybe because you didn't care about it in the first place. You are so obsessed with Muslims that every argument has to come back to them. Get a grip.

I think you've utterly lost it, you're going around in circles, and your inability to refute anything betrays you :p

Let me make this very simple so even YOU can sorta understand...

WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE THAT SIKHS ARE AT THREAT FROM THE WHITE POPULATION OR THE EDL? WHERE IS IT? WHY ARE YOU SO PARANOID?

You keep saying you've PROVED something... when you've yet to provide a single shred of evidence. You're just being COMPLETELY paranoid and banging on about a problem that does not actually exist... ALL while ignoring real actual pressing problems.

Go watch videos by the SIKH AWARENESS SOCIETY. Are they showing families that are suffering because of WHITE people? No.

http://www.youtube.com/user/SikhAwarenessSociety

What is your solution to CURRENT Sikh problems? Do you even have one? Let me guess... we all sit, join hands and pray? Then eat Langar? :p

Absolutely pathetic, it's lazy people like YOU that are the problem.

I'm afraid your faith IS weak. Why are you even on a Sikh forum if you don't believe it can stand up to criticism? Did you get called too many names as a child?

An ideology that cannot stand up to debate or a joke is not worth following. Sikhism CAN stand up to those things and it's just incredibly sad you don't believe that.

The purpose of the EDL is to stamp out radical Islam, Sharia Law and obtain equal rights for all in this country. What EXACTLY do you expect this conversation to be about if not Muslims? If the subject was about Gay Marriage... then surely we would be talking about Gay Marriage? Try some logic next time :p .

You're the only one crying here. So desperately scared of Muslims that you saying Sikhs should join a right-wing organisation. Am I saying we should join Muslims ???? Who's the petrified one here ? I was just showing you that members of the EDL are racist against us as-well....which is one reason why we shouldn't join them. But, you ignore the point I am making and keep crying. I was just answering your question.

My life is totally unaffected by Muslims, but my Sikh teachings ask me to stamp out injustice wherever I find it. That is what I intend to do. I also can't ignore the fact that Sikhs themselves have suffered. You on the other hand seem to want to brush everything under the carpet. You're in the wrong decade mate. :p

You clearly don't understand what 'Right Wing' means either. The EDL aren't even a POLITICAL party. Maybe you shouldn't use words you don't understand anymore?

You basically ARE saying to join the Muslims. You're saying we should STOP PEOPLE INSULTING RELIGION. Muslims very much wish they could do the same. Well done!

I've got the perfect country for you to live in, it's called Pakistan. Please go. :p

That is due to our failure to tell people about who we are and also the media being too politically correct and scared of saying 'Muslim'. Again, pathetic that you would excuse racism against your own people. Was it the case in the UK as-well that they don't know who Sikhs are ? It was racism, plain and simple.

And to spell it out for you (as you seem incapable of understanding), I am trying to show you that the current undercurrent of anger is more than just against Muslims. There are some big issues brewing in the UK and Sikhs shouldn't be used as cannon fodder. Look at the bigger picture.

The ONLY one excusing acts of violence is YOU. I'm saying these tragedies should never have taken place, and we should SWIFTLY act to ensure it never ever happens again. You're saying that they were completely unavoidable.

Muslims are USING Sikhs and anything they can stand behind as a SHIELD to protect themselves. To deny this is ridiculous.

The media is also allowing this to happen, even abusing the term ASIAN to hide the true ethnicity of arrested groomers even though it's completely obvious to the world that it's Muslims and in particular Pakistanis.

Once again you have to PROVIDE EVIDENCE that Sikhs have anything to fear from the white people in this country. Until you can do that you are just being a paranoid nutcase and ignoring REAL problems that exist TODAY.

Once again, go watch the Sikh Awareness Society videos.

Are you part of the Turban Campaign or something? You seem deluded enough :p

Stop crying, no-one was killed or raped over the play. I consider the destruction of a way of life / culture truly disrespectful. Your values are truly messed up......leaving Sikh values and adopting chav values. If you look at our history we have never tolerated disrespect of our religion. In fact the recent struggle from 1978 actually started from this issue. Even the rehatnamey say "Gur Ki Ninda sunai na kaan"...but these would not be in line with your so-called British values so I would expect you to sell out here.

29.

Dushman naal saam, daam, bhaed, aadiak, upaa vartnae ate uprant udh karnaa|

When dealing with enemies, practice diplomacy, employ a variety of tactics, and exhaust all techniques before engaging in warfare.

WHERE did the Guru say to scream death threats and act like a violent monkeys when someone insults your faith? OH WAIT, IT DOESN'T SAY THAT ANYWHERE!

You're nothing but a hypocrite. You call out the EDL for 'WHO THE EFF IS ALLAH' chants and yet you REFUSE to condemn Sikhs saying EVEN WORSE things (against one defenceless Sikh woman). If you can dish it out, then you should be able to take it. Pathetic.

Like I said.

JUST A HYPOCRITE.

Re-read my post...it's linked to the issue of honour. I don't think you will understand this though....

Oh really? You blabbing on about promiscuity was to do with the topic of honour?

To me it just sounded like you were angry at women for not paying any attention to you :p

I can't blame them...

I was talking about HONOUR KILLINGS. You know... a problem that ACTUALLY EXISTS. It is the fault of the Sikh community for its continued silence on the matter and allowing these to take place for so long. When the dam broke and someone finally tackled that taboo subject, what do you EXPECT to happen? Did you expect to love what was being said?

Did you ever consider she made it as controversial as she did JUST SO that horrible subject could never be ignored again? To save lives?

No, they have been against Islam and Islamification long before the EDL were.

Are you really silly enough to bring up the BNP in a topic where they aren't even remotely relevant?

The BNP have always been against EVERYTHING non-white including Islam. The Shere Punjab used to fight with their lot plenty back in the day. I already stated that the BNP have nothing useful to offer Sikhs PERIOD. Unless you can think of a reason otherwise... how about you start trying to argue intelligently instead of relying on flippant comments?

Again, you are in denial, pretending there are no issues with white people moving out of ethnic areas. They feel like they are being pushed out of all areas. How many Muslims are going around telling people to get out ? Or, is this just something spread by scaremongers ?

I LIVE next to white people, they feel quite safe and welcome. Maybe that is different where you live. Maybe you should do something about that?

You want EVIDENCE of Muslims using violence and intimidation on locals?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0S6cQxhFVM

Enjoy trying to deny that.

I'm not going to keep repeating the same things. When I give you examples you go into denial and scream "petrified, sacred...". They didn't burn the koran.....they were going to. I have seen the video on youtube.

The only way YOU will stop repeating the same things is when you stop typing. If only... :p

That is correct. They DIDN'T burn the Koran. They never HAVE burned the Koran. If they DID burn the Koran then riots would take place somewhere and non-Muslims would likely DIE.

On the other hand Radical Muslims have burned poppies, flags, Bibles, screamed at returning soldiers. You name it they've done it, and NO Muslims have been killed for it.

So WHICH group is more unhinged?

Here are videos of the EDL supporting Sikh protests trying to get Professor Bullar released.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFslu0LhSq8

The EDL were also present at the Sikh protest in Luton in 2012.

So tell me, who is seeking out who here? Who is desperate for assistance? Clearly it's the ordinary White British man.

Just as the Kashmiri Hindu's pleaded with Guru Tegh Bahadur to save them from their forced conversions by the Mughals. The EDL have come to asks Sikhs to join them against a common oppressor. You can either pass up that offer and keep crying when Muslims annoy us, or we can nip that problem in the bud forever.

I am being LOGICAL. You are not...

25.

Budh bal da daataa vaheguroo noo jaananaa|

Appreciate intellect and power as gifts of the all knowing wondrous Enlightener.

This proves you are against a religion, something Sikhs have never been in history. Even after sacrificing his four sons Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes a letter to Aurangzeb (Zafarnama) and talks about how Aurangzeb is a deceiving swine who has disgraced his religion. They did NOT start bashing Islam.

First of all there is no OFFICIAL copy of the Zafarnamah available, everyone agrees it may not have been reproduced perfectly.

Second, WHY would the Guru insult Islam and the average Muslim anyway? His quarrel was with Aurangzeb, who had lied to the Guru specifically. It is not the average Muslim that is to blame, and nobody has ever claimed that to be the case.

You're forgetting the fact that Guru Gobind himself commanded Banda Singh Bahadur to get revenge for the suffering Sikhs had undergone, STRAIGHT after writing the letter. He never told him to attack all Muslims, that would have been ridiculous.

With that same thought in mind the EDL also recognises that it is Muslims who are in fact the first victims of Islam, ESPECIALLY the women. In the West Muslims are quite ignorant of what they have been born into.

No Sikh in history has ever spoken like that about anyone else's religion. Typical chav language.

Are you denying that Muhammad married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9? Are you denying the words written in the Koran?

The most prized Muslims sources SAY THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED.

Are you saying that the Muslim sources are 'TYPICAL CHAV LANGUAGE'?

Is that REALLY how you want to go about this? You sound like an Islamophobe... :p

50.

Jhutthi gavaahee nahee daenee|

Do not make false statements.

I am simply doing as my Guru says I should and SPEAKING THE TRUTH. Maybe you should try it?

There is ONE Muslim who goes to the EDL rallies.

Well there's at least 2 mate :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzWJddc9gkA

I DO love making you look silly.

We need to do this as we have BIG problems.

And WHAT exactly do we do about these problems? You have NO ANSWERS WHATSOEVER :p .

You are so afraid that you want to lick chav bottoms, begging them to fight Muslims for you. Have you become that desperate ? I am not saying we should join Muslims...YOU are saying we should join EDL, so who is the apologist, who is desperate, who is frightened ????? You contradict yourself by saying we should be strong, but you are so petrified that you want to join the EDL !!!

I am hardly a Muslim apologist as I support our community taking action when required (eg. Shere Punjab).......but NOT by being used as pawns by the EDL. I am in favour of our community concentrating on ourselves and tackling our problems OURSELVES without being so scared that we have to join right-wing groups (by doing this we will end up being used and look stupid).

No YOU are a perpetual bottom licker. You are licking Muslim bottoms. You are licking Leftist and Socialist bottoms. THEN you want to hide and cry in the corner until the problems we face go away, but they NEVER EVER will. Without action NOTHING will ever be fixed.

What I PERSONALLY am saying is we should answer the call of those who are suffering because of Islam and NEED HELP (which the EDL have asked for), whether that be the White population or our own fellow Sikhs who have been victims. We need to end that sort of rubbish forever, and we'll never get a better opportunity than this.

We ALREADY look stupid protecting the only group of people who ever even attempt to harm us. Do you HONESTLY think Pakistani Muslims respect us? Seriously?

Good for the Sikh guys. Again, not a reason to join the EDL.

Yes, we should be proud of them. If only more were capable of that sort of strength...

Too many of us are more than happy to moan and complain and never lift a single finger. Like you for example :p .

I'm not saying we should protect them. We shouldn't join the EDL.

Ahhh but you see we ARE already protecting them!

By not separating ourselves from Muslims we are protecting them. Protecting the very people who have committed crimes against us. The 'Turban Campaign' is standing in the way of the EDL and protecting Muslims. The 'Sikhs Against The EDL' are standing in the way of the EDL and protecting Muslims.

The message that Sikhs give off now is very BLURRED. We have supporters of the EDL and we have people against it. WE ARE NOT NEUTRAL whether you want to believe it or not. If we WERE totally neutral and not connected to any group, that would be BETTER than the mess we have right now.

Although I would prefer it if Sikhs (and Hindu's of course) were quiet supporters, allowing the White population to drive the EDL message harder into the mainstream with the greater moral grounding we could offer them. The government would be forced to tackle pressing issues. Sharia would be forever shut down as it should. We would all get what we want with the minumum amount of work. Indians would be respected as those who stood up for British rights. Easy peasy.

And STOP dodging my questions. Tell me WHAT have ever Muslims done for us? WHAT have they done to protect us?

WHAT better ideas do you have to sort out our problems? When you should KNOW that putting pressure on governments is a numbers game.

I look forward to your reply...

...

Also, have you noticed how PakistaniPunjabi01 (our resident Radical Muslim) seems to like you posts? How very interesting... :p

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Well chum, in that case, hurry up.

You only have 20 to 50 years...

By 2030, almost 10% of Europe will be Muslim Inshallah...By 2050, this number can go upto 15% too....

Meanwhile, we, the western Muslims, are here to defend Islam..and point out racist people like you and EDL to the wider masses...and organize politically etc..

What poor guys like you don't understand is that Islam has now become an inevitable part of West, Mashallah!

History tells that once Islam enters an area, its pretty much game over. It becomes an inevitable part of that land...Take India for example..Islam is inevitable part of Indian Subcontinent...

Guess what? ...all that Christian crusades, anti-Islamic propaganda of Church, and Christian warriors failed..Islam has finally entered the Europe! Mashallah...

So stop dreaming about destroying Islam...calm your racist thoughts down! and learn to respect other faiths...

You don't even know what you want, and what are you up against...Instead of crying, if people like you have tried to understand the OP of this thread, which is written by someone smarter than your folks, then you would have been better prepared to 'tackle' Islam...

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/72028-2013-west-islam-and-rest-of-worldislam-as-an-ideological-force-and-global-war-on-terror/

Let me just present a small hint of how clueless you folk are..

According to your world view, you see Muslim women as one of the biggest weakness of Islam...you go like "awww poor souls, we need to liberate them" etc...while Muslim Women are one of the biggest trump card of Islam in the West.... THINK! ;)

You obviously don't see your own hypocrisy, bragging about taking over the west but calling anyone who opposes this a racist!

You're wet dream of Islamic domination will not come to fruition. The problem with Muslims including you is that they just cannot bide their time. They will always act prematurely. Rather than waiting until they are strong enough, they will act prematurely and the likelihood is they will bring a whole heap of trouble on themselves. Islamic supremacists like you will carry out terror attacks like the Woolwich murder and the west will finally have had enough. At the moment you have the support of left wing liberals but that will soon evapourate when the Muslims step up their attacks on homosexuals. Europe may seem a soft touch now but when push comes to shove the whole of Europe will be deal with the Muslim problem. It is only a few generations ago that millions were killed defeating another totalitarian ideology and I wouldn't bet against them doing the same against Islam.

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First thing : Sikhism is 500+ years old... now coming to your post...

sikhi may be 500+ years old but the khalsa was formally created in 1699 thats what mehtab singh was refering too

I'm on this forum just for time pass etc....I never mentioned even the word 'Islam'...It were SIKHS on this forum who mentioned Islam again and again and again and again. On every single thread, Sikhs will post anti-Islamic videos, abuse Prophet, and post anti-islamic christian polemics...not once..not twice..no thrice..but this has been happening since I don't even know when!

So how come I was preaching something about Islam when I did not even take the name of it? Instead it were other guys who bring up religion every single time in their discussions? So much so that even in the thread about British society reacting weirdly to teacher-student affair, some Sikhs started post anti-Islamic videos. THIS is the level of desperation, insecurity, and inferiority-complex of Sikhs regarding Islam..and then you blame me for coming here to 'preach' Islam? How shameful.

you seem like a smart enough guy you shouldve been able to notice by now that its the same 2-3 guys in every thread in a forum that has thousands of members yet when you reply to them you insult sikhs as a whole and iv seen muslims say much worse about sikhs than any sikh on here has about muslims just go to any big muslim forum and type in sikh in the search bar to find out

BTW: You always say you grew up in middle-east..can I ask where? which country? I've lived in the Middle-East too..and my experience wasn't good either..you we might have something common here :biggrin2:

i believe brother mehtab grew up in the uae

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lol..how come I'm practicing "Al Taqqiya" ? What "bullsh!t" have I uttered here? Stop acting like kids..and point out my content that was inappropriate/false/lie according to you. Thats how I can improve. Throwing slurs at others won't help anyone...

PakistaniPunjabi, Lets talk about 1400 year old history. Where does your ancestors play part in this history? Majority of the population within subcontinent were forced to convert to Islam and I bet your ancestors were the ones who were forced to convert. So, where do they sit in this great history of Islam?

For Gods sake, you guys are are looked at by the Arabs as cannon fodder, piece of crap, worthless.

We know, the true Muslims are the Arabs and the rest were converted by force. How long are you going to keep ignoring the fact that the blood which runs through your veins is Hindu.

You can justify it as much as you like but the bottom line is your'e not even a true Muslim in the eyes of the Arabs.

Mate, You come on a Sikh forum to do what? Majority of the posts you write are pointless. Don't get me wrong, you seem like an intelligent person but what is your reason on this forum.

Are you trying to get your place in heaven and your 40 virgins?

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Wrong. Majority wasn't 'forced'....Majority of Muslims in Indian Subcontinent converted due to Sufi Saints....

You can see that even today...the largest groups of Muslims in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh are that of Sufi tradition....not wahabis.

regarding this claim what do you have to say about this post i made in another thread i dont want to start an arguement im legitimately interested in learning how many converted because of sufis vs how many converted because of fear read the whole thing

Will Durant argued in his 1935 book "The Story of Civilisation: Our Oriental Heritage" (page 459):

The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with great glee and pride the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave markets and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800 AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by sword during this period.

Writer Fernand Braudel wrote in A History of Civilisations (1995), that Islamic rule in India as a

"colonial experiment" was "extremely violent", and "the Muslims could not rule the country except by systematic terror. Cruelty was the norm burnings, summary executions, crucifixions or impalements, inventive tortures. Hindu temples were destroyed to make way for mosques. On occasion there were forced conversions. If ever there were an uprising, it was instantly and savagely repressed: houses were burned, the countryside was laid waste, men were slaughtered and women were taken as slaves."

The Afghan ruler Mahmud al-Ghazni invaded India no less than seventeen times between 1001 - 1026 AD. The book Tarikh-i-Yamini - written by his secretary documents several episodes of his bloody military campaigns : "The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously [at the Indian city of Thanesar] that the stream was discoloured, notwithstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink itthe infidels deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."

In the contemporary record - ' Taj-ul-Maasir' by Hassn Nizam-i-Naishapuri, it is stated that when Qutb-ul- Din Aibak (of Turko - Afghan origin and the First Sultan of Delhi 1194-1210 AD) conquered Meerat, he demolished all the Hindu temples of the city and erected mosques on their sites. In the city of Aligarh, he converted Hindu inhabitants to Islam by the sword and beheaded all those who adhered to their own religion.

The Persian historian Wassaf writes in his book 'Tazjiyat-ul-Amsar wa Tajriyat ul Asar' that when the Alaul-Din Khilji (An Afghan of Turkish origin and second ruler of the Khilji Dynasty in India 1295-1316 AD) captured the city of Kambayat at the head of the gulf of Cambay, he killed the adult male Hindu inhabitants for the glory of Islam, set flowing rivers of blood, sent the women of the country with all their gold, silver, and jewels, to his own home, and made about twentv thousand Hindu maidens his private slaves.

This ruler once asked his spiritual advisor (or Qazi) as to what was the Islamic law prescribed for the Hindus. The Qazi replied:

Hindus are like the mud; if silver is demanded from them, they must with the greatest humility offer gold. If a Mohammadan desires to spit into a Hindus mouth, the Hindu should open it wide for the purpose. God created the Hindus to be slaves of the Mohammadans. The Prophet hath ordained that, if the Hindus do not accept Islam, they should be imprisoned, tortured, finally put to death, and their property confiscated.

Timur was a Turkic conqueror and founder of the Timurid Dynasty. Timur's Indian campaign (1398 1399 AD) was recorded in his memoirs, collectively known as 'Tuzk-i-Timuri.' In them, he vividly described probably the greatest gruesome act in the entire history of the world where 100,000 Hindu prisoners of war in his camp were executed in a very short space of time. Timur after taking advice from his entourage says in his memoirs :

"they said that on the great day of battle these 100,000 prisoners could not be left with the baggage, and that it would be entirely opposed to the rules of war to set these idolaters and foes of Islam at liberty. In fact, no other course remained but that of making them all food for the sword

Timur thereupon resolved to put them to death. He proclaimed :

"throughout the camp that every man who has infidel prisoners was to put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. 100,000 infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain. Maulana Nasir-ud-din Umar, a counselor and a man of learning, who, in all his life had never killed a sparrow, now, in execution of my order, slew with his sword fifteen idolatrous Hindus, who were his captives".

During his campaign in India - Timur describes the scene when his army conquered the Indian city of Delhi :

"In a short space of time all the people in the [Delhi] fort were put to the sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels, and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers. They set fire to the houses and reduced them to ashes, and they razed the buildings and the fort to the ground....All these infidel Hindus were slain, their women and children, and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors. I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death."

The Mughal emperor Babur (who ruled India from 1526 -1530 AD) writing in his memoirs called the 'Baburnama' - wrote : " In AH 934 (2538 C.E.) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had been Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslims) for years was made into a Daru'l-Islam (a muslim nation)."

In Babur's own words in a poem about killing Hindus (From the 'Baburnama' ) he wrote :

"For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer,

I battled infidels and Hindus,

I determined to become a martyr

Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!"

The atrocities of the Mughal ruler Shah Jahan (who ruled India between 1628 - 1658 AD) are mentioned in the contemporary record called : 'Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori' and goes on to state : "When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars (Noblemen)"

The Afghan ruler Ahmad Shah Abdali attacked India in 1757 AD and made his way to the holy Hindu city of Mathura, the Bethlehem of the Hindus and birthplace of Krishna.

The atrocities that followed are recorded in the contemporary chronicle called : 'Tarikh-I-Alamgiri' :

Abdali's soldiers would be paid 5 Rupees (a sizeable amount at the time) for every enemy head brought in. Every horseman had loaded up all his horses with the plundered property, and atop of it rode the girl-captives and the slaves. The severed heads were tied up in rugs like bundles of grain and placed on the heads of the captives...Then the heads were stuck upon lances and taken to the gate of the chief minister for payment. It was an extraordinary display! Daily did this manner of slaughter and plundering proceed. And at night the shrieks of the women captives who were being raped, deafened the ears of the people...All those heads that had been cut off were built into pillars, and the captive men upon whose heads those bloody bundles had been brought in, were made to grind corn, and then their heads too were cut off. These things went on all the way to the city of Agra, nor was any part of the country spared.

Bro do you seriosly believe that hindus never converted to avoid all of that and to save the lives of themselves and there familys also pakistanis muslims are a proud people do you honestly think that they will teach there children"our ancestors were hindus who converted out of fear" instead saying the majority converted because of sufis became a conveniant exvuse

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Wrong. Majority wasn't 'forced'....Majority of Muslims in Indian Subcontinent converted due to Sufi Saints....

You can see that even today...the largest groups of Muslims in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh are that of Sufi tradition....not wahabis.

Shugal..time pass...some discussion etc..

By that logic we'll have to neglect all of Sikh history that Aurangzeb used to remove 1.25 mann of janeu each time he sat down for a meal, basically converted thousands of Hindus to Islam before he ate his meal. This explains why the populations of Muslims India+Pakistan+Bangladesh combined is the highest in the world. Where is the Sufism in that?

If you're here for time pass, I'd suggest you pay a deaf ear to anyone who talks against Islam. Why do you waste our time if you're here only to time pass? Ehvi apna vi jor laayi jande ho te sadda vi lvaayi jande ho?

Yes I grew up in the UAE.

Look buddy, Sikhs here openly admit that their ancestors at some point in history were Hindus/Muslims, no matter what "caste" is tagged to them. They are also proud of the fact that their folks were blessed and embraced this divine path. There is 0% chance that anyone was forced because you CANNOT force anyone to become a Sikh. How would you do that? Not possible. On the contrary, chances are that your folks may have been forcefully converted, or converted for money (sorry I am not trying to offend you here, just stating a possibility), or as you say they did come under Islam due to Sufi Saints, no one will ever know how/why. But in our case, our ancestors came to Sikhi purely out of love, and out of their 100% conviction and 100% willingness. Can you guarantee a 100% from your side about your folks? I seriously doubt it.

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