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TheFancyBanana

Free Will, Hukam, Karam?

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I'm confused, someone said people have no free will. Do we have free will? Or does God do everything? So do we make a decision to Jap Naam, or does waheguru make certain people jap naam? If wahguru does make everything happen then why do we get good or bad karam? We did not choose to do something, waheguru made us do it. So why are we rewarded or punished for that deed?

Or did that guy get it completely wrong?

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We do have free will, up to a certain extent, but we under the heavy influence of Kaam/krodh/lobh/moh/ahankar. How many times have done something, knowing full well that it's wrong, but we couldn't resist temptation?

Waheguru makes us do manmatt {sins}, when we are under the influence of the above 5. Our committed deeds accumulate, from one life to the next. At some stage, Waheguru does daya, and attches us to Satguru, who in turn attaches us to Waheguru, Naam is the Bramh Agni {fire} that burns our Prarabdh {past deeds}, to a cinder, rendering it useless, and thus liberating us from the pain and misery.

If you have the desire to Japp Naam, then consider yourself to be blessed by Satguru; if you don't yet have that dsire, then do Ardas to Satguru, to bless you with it...

Waheguru....

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I'm confused, someone said people have no free will. Do we have free will? Or does God do everything? So do we make a decision to Jap Naam, or does waheguru make certain people jap naam? If wahguru does make everything happen then why do we get good or bad karam? We did not choose to do something, waheguru made us do it. So why are we rewarded or punished for that deed?

Or did that guy get it completely wrong?

Nah there isn't I used to think loads whether we had free will or not. I came to conclusion we don't cos of the karmic paradox and other reasons. Lets say when we were first created by god be it either this lifetime is our first or lets say this is our 1000000th lifetime. So we have 1000000 lifetimes of karam that we have to wash out. But surely when we were first created we must not have had any karam to start of with. Therefore we must of been perfect when we were first created as it is believed by many that the aim of naam simran or meditation is to burn of previous sins. Say we burn of all our sins we reach the same point of when we were first created; some call this liberation.

So when we were first created we had no karma so who caused us to make that wrong decision or wrong action that led us to do bad actions? If we say it was our free will then the theory of burning our previous karma by naam is invalid as if we did our free will once liberated will still cause us to do bad actions therefore no liberation. We got to remember that when we were first created we had no karma so our free will should not be tainted by negative karma. So how have these bad actions all begun the answer is only God has caused us to do them and in the same way he causes us to do good.

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Nah there isn't I used to think loads whether we had free will or not. I came to conclusion we don't cos of the karmic paradox and other reasons. Lets say when we were first created by god be it either this lifetime is our first or lets say this is our 1000000th lifetime. So we have 1000000 lifetimes of karam that we have to wash out. But surely when we were first created we must not have had any karam to start of with. Therefore we must of been perfect when we were first created as it is believed by many that the aim of naam simran or meditation is to burn of previous sins. Say we burn of all our sins we reach the same point of when we were first created; some call this liberation.

So when we were first created we had no karma so who caused us to make that wrong decision or wrong action that led us to do bad actions? If we say it was our free will then the theory of burning our previous karma by naam is invalid as if we did our free will once liberated will still cause us to do bad actions therefore no liberation. We got to remember that when we were first created we had no karma so our free will should not be tainted by negative karma. So how have these bad actions all begun the answer is only God has caused us to do them and in the same way he causes us to do good.

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This is a very deep subject, many opposing views in the world of philosophy.

Would be interesting to see what an accomplished GurSikh Saint has to say backed up with Gurmat. I've seen both sides and I actually have a scenario in my head that I believe may either refute concept of no free will or add more questions.

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Also if we had free will it would mean that we have our own unique independent choice or action that no other person can know about before we do it. Free should mean without any external influence but this cannot be. The problem with this theory is that then God should not also know what action we are going to do if God knew what we were going to do then it is not free will but preordained destiny. This would also make God not all powerful as he doesn't know your free will.

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Also if we had free will it would mean that we have our own unique independent choice or action that no other person can know about before we do it. Free should mean without any external influence but this cannot be. The problem with this theory is that then God should not also know what action we are going to do if God knew what we were going to do then it is not free will but preordained destiny. This would also make God not all powerful as he doesn't know your free will.

You are so right.+1

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I've seen both sides of the argument, Sam Harris presents a pretty good argument for no free will using biology/biochem.

What my problem is this, say for example you would be able to simulate reality for an individual person and clone it 1,000,000,000,000 times over for a situation with 100.00000000000000000000% exact same conditions in the Universe down to the smallest particle and time would the situation a person is in play out the same way each time?

For example if you were sitting in class and this situation was multiplied X times with the same exact conditions in the Universe and you chose to leave class early, would this happen in all the 1,000,000,000,000 times with the same exact conditions leading up to that decision?

I thought about this specific situation in philosophy class last semester and it bothered me since.

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We are walking along the road, no other person can see us, we pick up someone's dropped purse, with a large amount of money, and their I.d.

Choice 1.

We contact that person, and give their purse back to them.

Choice 2.

We keep the cash, and discard the purse.

What causes us to choose action 1, and what causes us to choose action 2?

The person choosing action 2, is under the heavy influence of maya. The person choosing action 1, is not under the heavy influence of maya.

When we were first created, we did have a clean chit, in terms of no previous karams, but the fact remains, that as jeevs, we were placed under the influence of maya, I.e. Kaam/krodh....otherwise the game cant be played out by Waheguru.

There is free will, but our hands are tied, eyes blindfolded, and shackles around the feet, are placed by maya. Only Naam removes these bandan, and then we have liberation, where there is no I fluency of the 5; hence the life of a Gurmukh....

Waheguru....

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I've seen both sides of the argument, Sam Harris presents a pretty good argument for no free will using biology/biochem.

What my problem is this, say for example you would be able to simulate reality for an individual person and clone it 1,000,000,000,000 times over for a situation with 100.00000000000000000000% exact same conditions in the Universe down to the smallest particle and time would the situation a person is in play out the same way each time?

For example if you were sitting in class and this situation was multiplied X times with the same exact conditions in the Universe and you chose to leave class early, would this happen in all the 1,000,000,000,000 times with the same exact conditions leading up to that decision?

I thought about this specific situation in philosophy class last semester and it bothered me since.

Good question. The problem with choice is as I have bolded above in the quote is not under our control so to say we chose was never under our control in the first place. The way our brain works is we first get a thought and then after we have had the thought we become aware of the thought. Lets give a practical example when we do gurmantar repetition; let say we do this mentally and sometimes thoughts come in our head. We were supposed to be doing gurmantar repetition so who gave us the thoughts that interrupted our naam? They were never in our control to begin with. Science when looked at the brain it found neuron impulses before a thought was propagated and without those neuron impulses there was no thought. Science does not know who or what is causing the impulses but I believe it to be God as he is pulling the strings behind the show.

So coming to answer sam Harris's question of the simulated individual choosing to leave class early in one simulation and of this happening in other exact simulations is that choice is not under the individuals control but in the individual creating the simulation. So the choice would be for the person playing God in the simulation.

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When we were first created, we did have a clean chit, in terms of no previous karams, but the fact remains, that as jeevs, we were placed under the influence of maya, I.e. Kaam/krodh....otherwise the game cant be played out by Waheguru.

There is free will, but our hands are tied, eyes blindfolded, and shackles around the feet, are placed by maya. Only Naam removes these bandan, and then we have liberation, where there is no I fluency of the 5; hence the life of a Gurmukh....

Waheguru....

Naam removes previous karams so we have no karma remaining but if we had no previous karams to start of with then shouldn't we be liberated in both situations? Using your theory maya would still effect a person without karma be it with naam or without then there is no escape. Can maya effect or influence a person without karma?

So you said the jeev is placed under maya by God thereby god is causing the individual to do evil or good. Lets say we do naam and we get our karma amount to zero then how do we know that god won't just put us into the grips of maya again like he did when we started of?

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We are walking along the road, no other person can see us, we pick up someone's dropped purse, with a large amount of money, and their I.d.

Choice 1.

We contact that person, and give their purse back to them.

Choice 2.

We keep the cash, and discard the purse.

What causes us to choose action 1, and what causes us to choose action 2?

The person choosing action 2, is under the heavy influence of maya. The person choosing action 1, is not under the heavy influence of maya.

I sincerely disagree. The problem with choice is that it is not under our control so to say we chose was never under our control in the first place. The way our brain works is we first get a thought and then after we have had the thought we become aware of the thought. Lets give a practical example when we do gurmantar repetition; let say we do this mentally and sometimes thoughts come in our head. We were supposed to be doing gurmantar repetition so who gave us the thoughts that interrupted our naam? They were never in our control to begin with. Science when looked at the brain it found neuron impulses before a thought was propagated and without those neuron impulses there was no thought. Science does not know who or what is causing the impulses but I believe it to be God as he is pulling the strings behind the show.

What causes us to choose action 1, and what causes us to choose action 2?

Only God chooses to do both actions.

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Good question. The problem with choice is as I have bolded above in the quote is not under our control so to say we chose was never under our control in the first place. The way our brain works is we first get a thought and then after we have had the thought we become aware of the thought. Lets give a practical example when we do gurmantar repetition; let say we do this mentally and sometimes thoughts come in our head. We were supposed to be doing gurmantar repetition so who gave us the thoughts that interrupted our naam? They were never in our control to begin with. Science when looked at the brain it found neuron impulses before a thought was propagated and without those neuron impulses there was no thought. Science does not know who or what is causing the impulses but I believe it to be God as he is pulling the strings behind the show.

So coming to answer sam Harris's question of the simulated individual choosing to leave class early in one simulation and of this happening in other exact simulations is that choice is not under the individuals control but in the individual creating the simulation. So the choice would be for the person playing God in the simulation.

The question was actually mine, none of what I mentioned had anything to do with Sam Harris lol.

What you replied is the basic argument that Sam Harris makes against free will if I'm not mistaken. I'm still not sure though, after we get the thought what exactly determines the decision and would it be the same if all the conditions in the Universe were exactly* the same and repeated an indefinite amount of time?

Would they be the same every time?

I'm thinking about starting a topic in intellectual thread and we can debate this where I post this situation and have people debate one side vs the opposing. What do you think?

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